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Old Jan 14th 2010, 09:53 AM   #1
 IndependenceRanch's Avatar
 
  Apr 2009
  Edgar, WI

Cervid: deer
I have been laying low here on the forums lately but decided I would toss this out there for some discussion.

A couple of days ago I was talking with a friend of mine about, you guessed it, deer.

During the discussion and after wards I started thinking about quality breeder bucks and what is better. Old or new breeder bucks.

Some of the old breeders from years ago are still available through the semen giving us a chance to use them in the deeply bred does of today. Some of these old breeders have been very productive through their sons and some through their daughters. But what would happen if they were given a shot at today's deeply bred does? Would they be even more productive? Or do today's deeply bred bucks have the upper hand and will eventually show they are even more productive than the old timers who we all know of from years ago?



Note: This discussion is NOT intended to promote nor discredit any particular buck or bloodline.



For example.

Sundance is a well known buck from the past. His production through sons and daughters is well documented. Would he out perform the "bucks of today" if given the chance? Or does a buck from the modern era like say Ramsay have the upper hand on him? (Ramsay being a great great grandson of Sundance)

Another example.

Thunder is another well known buck of the past. He produced many good sons and his girls were also very productive. In today's deeply bred does would Thunder be better, or would a modern era buck like QuickSilver do better? (QuickSilver is a great great grandson of Thunder)



We looked at the bucks, now let's take a look at the doe side of the equation.

As an example.

Pebbles is a well known producer from the past. Many great sons of her own, but her daughters, granddaughters and great granddaughters all produce as good or better. How would Pebbles produce if given the deep and solid foundations of today's herd sires?



Again this was not intended to promote nor discredit any animal or bloodline.



But the question is...

Do you think an "old timer" sire in today's does would be even more explosive than today's sire's given the production those old timers had back then? Or do you think today's sire's will provide better production when given the chance?
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Old Jan 14th 2010, 10:07 AM   #2
 
  Apr 2009
  Nowata, OK
Roger, I believe that the old timers would be more explosive. One only needs to look at what the did in their day. I also think that today young sires are a direct product for all the "greats" being crossed. Many of the breeders back then bred for a look. Now we all breed for a score. At some point we will go back to a look and the greats from years past will lead the way. Those guys " sitting" on semen from Poncho, Max, PA Geronimo, Sundance, and all the other greats will be smiling all the way to the bank.
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Old Jan 14th 2010, 12:25 PM   #3
 
  Apr 2009
  St. Peters, Missouri
Roger



First I would like to say it was great meeting you and everyone else from the forum at the Top 30.



We are concentrating on the "Old School" sires such as Thunder, PA Geronimo, Banshee, BJ, Little Boomer, Martygraw/Maxbo/Max, Sunny, and Bucky to just name a few. If this whole thing works out, we plan on having good, deep bred base does from proven lines, both "New and Old School", and then hitting them with the "Old School" proven producers. We feel this will produce even better sons than they did in the past, or at least give us some outstanding, giant framed, top of the line shooters, which is the end market for 99% of the bucks born anyway.
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Old Jan 14th 2010, 05:58 PM   #4
 roughcountrywhitetails's Avatar
 
  Apr 2009
  Mineral Point, MO
I believe the old would blow the new out of the water if used in the doe's of today. It makes me sick to see sires like PA Geronimo, Max, Sundance, and Highroller passed by like they are nothing more than an old computer that is out of date for a new younger buck. The new younger sires may have great pedigrees and may be a huge yearling or two year olds, but thier is still one thing the old timers have the newbees do not and that is the proven ablity to produce at a high level.

I also see to much hype in the industry (i won't use any names) but I have seen semen out of some sires that you could not give away and then so and so buys the buck and over night everyone then wants to breed with that buck (hype)

well I think I have vented enough for now so I will shut up for now.
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Old Jan 14th 2010, 09:53 PM   #5
 
  Jun 2009
  Tyrone, PA
I'm going for the young boys.
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Old Jan 14th 2010, 10:01 PM   #6
 
  Jun 2009
  Tyrone, PA
Well I'll chime in here Roger. First things first. The beauty of the deer business is there are many roads to explore in genetics. Kinda like a road map. Many ways to a destination just how does the driver choose his rout? Some will take the path of least resistance, some will take the shortest route while others will challenge a more difficult journey. Beauty is we all make our own bed and then we have to lye in it. My genetic choices will be more of a diversified portfolio. Not all old school and not all new school but a mix of both. I tend to lean more high risk maybe 75%-80% young up and comers and 20%-25% conservative sure things. My opinion is pound for pound the 1,2,3 yr olds are far deeper in pedigree and have the obvious larger antlers age for age compared to their grandpa. Now the tricky part is getting lucky on the high risk younger sires. Not all of them will be huge producers or have the look you were hoping for at maturity... but... when one of the young ones start to catch fire... look out, it could get hot fast and huge production, far superior to the past is bound to take place. It's impossible to stack genetics properly and go backwards with your herd averages. 15 years ago we bought one of the largest yearlings alive named Walter who scored 98" @1. This was a must see buck for many visitors to our farm that year. Walter was a son of Redoy Jim a very famous sire well known for being one of the best producers of that time. Many breeders choose to breed with bucks like Jim and would build a conservative sure thing type herd around the low risk and very consistent Redoy Jim production... but some risked Walter... and other sons like him that were unproven but bigger young bucks. Where would we be today if we continued to only breed the old Redoy Jim's????? Without great risk the chance of great reward is not so good. My vote is for the next generation and the young stuff. Bye the way if you see our both at the shows this year... 15 years later, genetic evolution will be as obvious as getting hit in the head with a ball-peen hammer.... King Kong!
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Old Jan 14th 2010, 10:33 PM   #7
 
  Aug 2009
  Everett, PA
I vote leans toward the new generation of proven monster bucks. But on the other hand one can never take away the pass down traits of Max-Bow, Pa. Geronimo and other super bucks like them. It did not matter what does you bred them to they produced.

Heck most of the bucks we are talking about are likely out of them any way.
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Old Jan 15th 2010, 08:41 AM   #8
 
  Apr 2009
  Mexico, MO
Russ took the words right out of my mouth. I had something very similar typed up, but he beat me to the punch!
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Old Jan 15th 2010, 09:14 AM   #9
 jcawhorn's Avatar
 
  May 2009
  Sallisaw, Oklahoma

Cervid: deer farming
Ive only been raising deer for 2 yrs so I know very little about all of the older bloodlines etc.. I just wonder if the founding fathers of this industry (10-15 yrs ago) had the same type of feed,medicines,modern enclosures,etc..that a lot of the farmers have access to these days? Maybe Flees Boomer, Max, PA Geronimo,Magnum, and so on would ve been a lot larger at !yr ,2yr etc if they were born 10 yrs later than they were ? Who knows???? I love this buisness and most of everything that comes with it including these forums. These things along with the "what-ifs" of breeding and raising deer are what make this soooo enjoyable for me anyway. Keep up the good work everyone ! Jeff
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Old Jan 15th 2010, 10:18 AM   #10
 
  Apr 2009
  Tobin Lake, Saskatchewan
that is why when we Ai we save a few straws to breed back around with 4-5 generations later.
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Old Jan 18th 2010, 09:39 AM   #11
 
  Aug 2009
  M
Being new at this, my guess is that it all depends if you are starting your foundation or if you have already a consolidated inventory. If you are starting you are probably better off knowing that you will get a great foundation and use only proven sires, and once you are already on your way you can take more risks and try using younger bucks with proven genetics but unproven passdown.



Just a thought.
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Old Jan 18th 2010, 10:07 AM   #12
 IndependenceRanch's Avatar
 
  Apr 2009
  Edgar, WI

Cervid: deer
Quote:
Originally Posted by WRW_2
Roger



First I would like to say it was great meeting you and everyone else from the forum at the Top 30.



We are concentrating on the "Old School" sires such as Thunder, PA Geronimo, Banshee, BJ, Little Boomer, Martygraw/Maxbo/Max, Sunny, and Bucky to just name a few. If this whole thing works out, we plan on having good, deep bred base does from proven lines, both "New and Old School", and then hitting them with the "Old School" proven producers. We feel this will produce even better sons than they did in the past, or at least give us some outstanding, giant framed, top of the line shooters, which is the end market for 99% of the bucks born anyway.


Mark, it was great meeting you as well.

When I am at the sales I get a little over whelmed with all the people walking around. I get a rather uncomfortable feeling in crowds, and sometimes my mind starts slow down. I hope no one ever takes me as being unfriendly in those cases.
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Old Jan 18th 2010, 10:39 AM   #13
 IndependenceRanch's Avatar
 
  Apr 2009
  Edgar, WI

Cervid: deer
Quote:
Originally Posted by roughcountrywhitetails
I believe the old would blow the new out of the water if used in the doe's of today. It makes me sick to see sires like PA Geronimo, Max, Sundance, and Highroller passed by like they are nothing more than an old computer that is out of date for a new younger buck. The new younger sires may have great pedigrees and may be a huge yearling or two year olds, but thier is still one thing the old timers have the newbees do not and that is the proven ablity to produce at a high level.


I don't know which way to think about the old school proven sire's. Part of me says if they were able to produce so well with those old school does with pedigrees that were stacked very little, what could they do with today's deep and well bred does.



But then part of me thinks the very fact today's does and bucks are stacked so deep they have no choice but to produce. Yet we see some of these deer don't produce as anticipated. It still takes that certain something special in a cross to make it spark and produce big.



I guess by looking at how I breed my herd it is easy to see which way I am going the most often.

I have isolated certain animals from the past with proven pass-down abilities and specific characteristics I desire. I then stack those proven animals through line breeding. So far I am pleased with my results, but I am excited about what lies ahead yet, as I am only part way into the plan I established when I rethought my program back in 2002.

I also have a couple of projects using the alternative method of breeding.



For me it is hard to play to many angles in the breeding game at one time though since we keep our numbers on the farm so low. The wife told me that the absolute max I can have is 10 breeding age does per year, and that they all must be the very best of the best in quality. This mandate from the boss means some really good does have been sold and this next summer will be no different. But if I don't keep her happy where will I live?
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Old Jan 18th 2010, 11:59 AM   #14
 
  Apr 2009
I think either old school or the latest greatest is likely to work as I give the doe about 70% of the credit for success. When you say that they will produce even better with the does of today thats spot on.
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Old Jan 18th 2010, 12:21 PM   #15
 SJames's Avatar
 
  Apr 2009
  Columbia, MO

Cervid: Deer Farm Manager
Since we are talking old school, How about using older does that are proven?, I have been torn by what to do with does that have produced VERY good sons. If you have does out of them, should you move them, or keep using them. If they produce "Rocky Roller" ,will their daughters?



Then I tell myself, why sell them when they can produce like that! Their bucks are usually worth more than you get for them!



It’s always a hard decision

!
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