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Old Apr 11th 2013, 01:48 PM   #1
 
  Sep 2010
  Wykoff, MN
I sure hope everyone has read a copy of the "standards" and is keeping up on what is happening with the process and what "i" soon believe to be a slow Death to the cervid industry if these are put into effect!



I do not consider myself to be a large deer farm, but i know i have alot of money, time and PASSION invested in my farm, and i am not ready to give this up!, and let our government ruin something good, like usual.



The MN state vets and many other state vets are advising us to throw out the standards, because they too believe they are very detrimental to the cervid industry!



It is absolutely ridiculous to have the wildlife agencies involved in writing these standards, when they do not have to follow them.



It is my understanding that if the standards are thrown out, the state vets and industry leaders may have an option to sit down and rewrite the standards to be friendly and workable for everyone!



If this is the case, why are we not going this route?



As of right now, i believe we are better off not letting these standards go into effect, (unless there are MAJOR! changes) we are better off operating as is!



I and many other deer farmers are very curious where NADEFA stands on throwing out the Standards. From what i am seeing, is that they have very little interest in doing this and i think all members DESERVE an explanation of WHY or WHY NOT they are going the direction they are!!!



We get e-mail blasts 5 times a week or more on this and that, why not an honest position on where the board and exec stand??



I believe the MEMBERSHIP should demand a vote on what should be done with the standards, as they effect way more members than board members and directors.



This post is not intended to start a revolt of NADEFA, but to make everyone aware of what is going on and where OUR association stands, and to let the membership have a say!



Let's demand a membership vote on the standards!



Any input or correction to my post would be greatly appreciated!
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Old Apr 11th 2013, 02:02 PM   #2
 
  Sep 2012
  Clear Lake, Iowa
Amen. Iowa is the blueprint to CWD standards!



They forced Doc to kill his animals, dispose of them, remove top soil, and quarantined his land for 5 years, requiring he maintain the fence and handed him a bill for testing. He is an elderly man and not in best health. Shameful!



We on the other hand, are quarantined, feeding, and fighting because we won't sign the herd plan and role over.



Can't tell u how happy I am to hear someone else beating the drum. I am exhausted.
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Old Apr 11th 2013, 02:19 PM   #3
 
  Sep 2012
  Clear Lake, Iowa
I should clarify I was referring to the standards in beating the drum.



We cannot live with them because they are wildlife driven. As Patty Judge told us ten years ago when we lost fed funding, no money, no program. The USDA is requesting these stringent standards with no funding for the states. This will not work good for me, you, nor your state vet.
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Old Apr 11th 2013, 02:34 PM   #4
 Jack's Avatar
 
  Apr 2009
  Vaughn, MT 59487

Cervid: mule deer,whitetail,elk,goats,bighorn & stone sheep & Alaskan dahl sheep
It really seems to me the standards in CWD rules are made to cripple the industry and have really nothing to do with the control of CWD. Heck if they won't control the wild deer and elk and move them here and there who are we kiding.

CWD rules are there to put the industry out of business without compensation. The DNR's had to much imput to these rules. Yes they have every right to comment on them but a place at the table. We all know the DNR in Montana used the Wildlife Federation to put I-143 in front of the public and then the DNR used their ad against the game farm industry and worked up the public with many lies. The DNR made the situation and then worked the hunters, public and anyone else who would get on their emotion wagon.

Do I have proof the DNR wrote I-143 no not really but at rule making the DNR and Wildlife Federation always went back to the DNR building for lunch. When they returned guess what the Wildlife Federation always had new ideas and rules to put on the table.

These new CWD rules have been written to shut down the industry and that is a fact.

No other livestock group would sign up for this abuse. You want to kill my animals if I'm the unlucky one that is next without compensation. What is this industry thinking?
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Old Apr 11th 2013, 03:09 PM   #5
 SJames's Avatar
 
  Apr 2009
  Columbia, MO

Cervid: Deer Farm Manager
Rhonda is right on all counts and I really feel for her and Tom. I really feel like the real snake in the grass is the fact that the free-ranging deer are not being tested at all. We are setting ourselves up for complete blame if this continues. And for the life of me I can't understand why wildlife people are allowed at the table to discuss our side of the fence when we have no say in their side of the fence. It is Suicide!



Here is a quick little bit of facts I researched and wrote the other day..I have lots more examples:



ARE THEY REALLY TESTING THE FREE-RANGING CERVIDS???



It is a sad fact that while the Wildlife departments across the USA are trying to make all the captive deer breeders test at a rate of near 100%, they themselves are not held accountable for testing the free-ranging deer population. In the last 10 years, they have done VERY LITTLE testing and have tested much less than 1% of the population. It is very likely that CWD is out there in thousands of locations across the USA at a very low incidence rate (way under 1%) and that the only way we are going to stumble across it is when the captive deer industry discovers it. WHY ARE WE NOT TESTING THE FREE-RANGING HERD?



In the free-ranging herds the DNR and Wildlife departments are quoted as testing to find a prevalence rate of 1% or greater. However that prevalence rate is way too high. Most CWD is found at way less than that. For example, in the Illinois endemic area in the North part of the state they have had 384 positives since 2002. Every year except one the prevalence level has been below 1%. And this is an endemic area. Why are they testing to find it at a prevalence rate of 1% or greater? Especially when it appears in the captive herd that even one positive is a major catastrophe.



Two states, Ohio and Indiana, are claiming to be CWD free. Last fall Ohio tested 600 deer and Indiana tested a little over 1000. Ohio’s deer population is estimated at 750,000 and Indiana’s is estimated at 900,000. That means they are testing at a rate of .08% and .11% respectively. Read that close. That’s 8/100ths of one percent.



Let’s take Ohio as an example. If we divide up the counties into the 88 counties and estimate the population at 750,000/88, we get an average of 8523 deer per county. At the rate they tested we can use the confidence interval table below to determine a 95% confidence that they don’t have more than 2548 deer in EACH county that have CWD. Read that again. We can only be sure that the number of deer that have CWD in each county in Ohio is less than 2548.



Here is a 95% confidence interval for negative tests for populations.

IN OTHER WORDS OHIO IS NOT TESTING AT ALL! AND NOBODY ELSE IS EITHER!!
Attached Thumbnails
"CWD Standards"... Suicide to the Industry?"-95-confid-interval.jpg  
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Old Apr 11th 2013, 04:49 PM   #6
 Four Seasons Whitetails's Avatar
 
  Oct 2009
  upstate ny

Cervid: Whitetail Deer
Thats because Ohio and Indiana have not found it behind fence yet! When that happens you will see some cases in the wild pop up! Do you see a trend?
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Old Apr 12th 2013, 06:27 AM   #7
 
  Jan 2012
  Manchester, IA
HUH not alot of comments on this one but you make an awful lot of sense Adam. I've seen the same scenario many times before once something like this is set in stone it's alot harder to get changed. It has to be done right the first time



Chuck
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Old Apr 12th 2013, 07:47 AM   #8
 
  Feb 2011
  Pierre SD
Jack, YOU ARE EXACTLY RIGHT, it isn't about cwd it's about COMMERCIAL hunting PERIOD. The Wildlife Federation is the commercial hunting industry's worst enemy along with these left wing DNR groups. They hide behind the name Wildlife Federation, people think that surely they are helping wildlife and hunters. Remember, none of these people are landowners and 99% have some sort of gov't job. They are the democrats of the hunting world. They want all the good hunting to be open to the public but of course want it to be free(or in other words, someone else pay for it because nothing is free). Here in SD the Federation also sits right with our Game Fish and Parks officials during our legislative session and commision meetings patting each other on the backs. They have 2 full time lobbyists that oppose any good bill that would benefit any kind of commercial hunting. There is no doubt that they work together, Our Secratary of Game Fish & Parks(the head of the dept.) even speaks about all the great things they are doing together at most of the Commision meetings. Our senators and reps. listen to them because they hollar and whine the loudest that all the "rich" non-residents are taking all "there" good hunting spots and they don't have anywhere to hunt. They say they hate commercial hunting but yet they always seem to drive circles around all of the commercial hunting operations hoping to bush whack a rooster or buck out of the ditch, usually right in the farmers yard. They boast about the 3,000 members they have but I think most of our legislators are finally getting tired of listening to the same old BS and them NEVER bringing anything to the table. Most legislators (I HOPE) are realizing that the other 97,000 resident hunters are NOT members of the Federation. The Wildlife Federation has NEVER brought anything to the table other then the fact that they are a citizen of the state and they DESERVE a good place to hunt. They see the progress the deer industry, outfitters and private landowners are doing and it drives them nuts. If you offered these Wildlife Federation nimrods a free trophy buck hunt or pheasant hunt on your preserve(they also hate our pheasant preserve industry), they would all show up at your ranch with gun in hand. The sad part is that most of the public falls for the false CWD propaganda put out by the DNR, Wildlife Federation, QDMA, etc. because most of them can't think for themselves or do any kind of research about whats going on in the real world. You can't fix stupid, not even with Duct tape. Just look at our president and how many clueless people voted for him.



If there isn't some sort of value to wildlife, most farmers and ranchers would NOT put anything aside for habitat. High fence hunting drives these people nuts because they have less control over us(there competition). As of now, the state Game fish and Parks can come onto our land without a reason or warrant, try that with any other private property or law enforcement. They control the numbers of hunters, who the hunters are(residents only)and collect the lic. sales dollars and don't even have to feed or take care of the animals or provide habitat, sounds like a hell of a deal for them. Even if your family has farmed thousands of acres for over a hundred years and feeds hundreds of "there" deer year round, if your child who still works the farm and participates but lives in another state, they can't even have a chance at getting a buck license. Unfortunatly in this state we can't even get a non-resident buck lic. for the eastern half and very few tags for the west half (thanks to the wildlife federation). Because of that, there is basically not a market for deer hunting and most of our landowners are out to do one thing, eliminate the deer population, especially with high grain prices. Now these idiots are wondering "what happened to all the deer that used to be around". Maybe they should do a study, surely some way it has to be the commercial hunting industries fault.



Cody Warne
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Old Apr 12th 2013, 09:35 AM   #9
 
  Nov 2010
  Lanesboro, Minnesota
Sounds like the Wildlife Federation wants "socialized" hunting. Where have I heard socialized before?
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Old Apr 12th 2013, 09:38 AM   #10
 
  Apr 2009
  Michigan
Sam is exactly right in the numbers. Here in Michigan they used to say their whole herd (2.0 Million), meaning all the deer in the state is their herd. Which we now know isn't true when comes to disease. Because of pockets or boundries within create natural blocks for the deer movement, such as upper and lower Mich. The states should be split into samller area's or counties like we have here and apply the standards such as Sam is suggesting and the numbers will be much higher for sure.



Ohio and Indiana does not want to find it! Here in Michigan they have all but stoped looking for it. I don't think they are even at Ohio's level anymore. The burden is on the cervid producers.
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Old Apr 12th 2013, 07:32 PM   #11
 
  Apr 2013
  Hazen ND USA
Hello Jack Shubarth



It has been a few years since I last visited with you. Dwight Grosz President of the North Dakota Elk Growers. I want to thank you for all the posting you did on the forums and blogs in ND during the fair chase initiated measures to ban high fence hunting.



Your commonsense prompted me to post here for the first time. There are several factions involved with writing the Standards. There are three veterinarians and two more on stand by. Our three, Shawn Schafer, Charlie Seale and Eric Mohlman. And the there are three from the Association of Fish and Wildlife Agencies.



Cal BuBrock PA DNR

Dale Garner IA DNR

John Fischer SCWDS



No.1 Cal DuBrock director bureau of wildlife management, former president of the PA chapter of the wildlife society



http://www.portal.state.pa.us/portal...1096120&mode=2



The wildlife society has a lot of functions with wildlife federation persons invited. Below you will find Cal BuBrock rubbing elbows with Larry J. Schweiger

President & CEO National Wildlife Federation. The NWF was the driver for I-143 in Montana and then they drove over to ND to put us out of business. In 2006 I tried to sit in on one of their war room meetings with Land Tawney regional director for the NWF. They threw me out.



No.2 Dale Garner



http://www.mafwa.org/documents/fwhealth_rpt_long11.pdf



Federal CWD funding has been at a $16-17M level. In the current USDA budget request for FY13, USDA suggested an elimination of the CWD funding to states and tribes entirely; only $1.8M would be retained to keep on 30 CWD staff to administer the rule. There may still be CWD funding in FY12 for states and tribes, the level

of which is currently uncertain. A discussion on funding for CWD, independent of federal funding, continued. Some states have some dedicated funding for wildlife

health whereas others do not. Disease spending needs to be driven by biological impacts to the resource versus impact to agriculture (e.g. CWD vs T. Steve Schmitt

(MI) asked what states that currently do not have CWD will do with a lack of federal funding. Indiana plans to

continue CWD surveillance irregardless of federal funding, but the scale may be reduced. Iowa would continue surveillance also, but probably scale this back and concentrate efforts on the most high risk areas. Other states suggested they will only test animals showing symptoms of CWD. The group discussed the need to continue testing captive cervids. If federal funding goes away, does the monitoring of captive cervids disappear with it? Currently, Brian Richards pointed out that the CWD-positive captive herd in Missouri is still not depopulated. There continues to be new cases of CWD detected in the captive cervid industry, notably 6 premises in Saskatchewan and 1 in NE this year alone. Steve Schmitt and Dale Garner (IA) agree that they would rather see DNR funds being spent on testing captives than testing hunter-harvested wild deer at random. Brian Richards USGS informed the group that Idaho had a bill passed through both houses that would reduce the amount of required disease testing in the captive cervid industry. This new rule will reduce testing requirement to only 20% of testable mortalities once every 3 years. This greatly alarmed the committee. If Idaho passes this bill, this might be a slippery slope that other states would reduce their testing requirements and thus import requirements. Currently, most states will not allow importation of captive cervids from a herd without 100% testing of testable animals for 3-5 years. Dan Grove (ND) suggested the captive cervid industry pay their own testing fees, as it should be a small price to pay on the expensive shooter bucks or the need to transport these animals for marketing opportunities.



Well this is all very intersesting. The fed/gov is having to make cuts everywhere and the USDA decided to cut funding here but they still want to be involved in the rule making process. If rules must be enacted for the public good, then the good public has a responsiblity here. Another interesting tidbit is Idaho. They lobbied for reduce testing and do not need to export because they have hunt and slaughter facilities. What is obvious is that these AFWA guys don't want even one state to go first. Idaho wouldn't be an island onto themselves for very long.



No.3 John Fischer SCWDS Southeastern Cooperative Wildlife Disease Study



John is the vice-chair of the fish and wildlife health committee. Part of the Association of Fish and Wildlife Agencies. If someone is a member here they are more than likely wildlife society. On March 29th 2013 they had a meeting in Crystal City Va. Dr. Patty Klein was there. And so were some other persons of interest.



http://www.fishwildlife.org/files/FW...3_NAagenda.pdf



No.1 Bob Duncan (VA) Chair, wildlife society and wildlife federation



http://www.dgif.virginia.gov/about/director/



No.2 Virgil Moore (ID)



No.3 Colin Gillin (OR) oregon chapter of the wildlife society and USAHA



http://wildlife.org/documents/confer...nd/program.pdf



No.4 Bill Siemer (Cornell) wildlife society



http://joomla.wildlife.org/index.php...110&Itemid=354



No.5 Jonathan Sleeman (USGS) wildlife society and USAHA



http://joomla.wildlife.org/index.php...sk=view&id=960



No.6 T.J. Myers USDA/APHIS



No.7 Current Status of APHIS CWD FINAL INTERIM RULE-Patty Klein (APHIS-VS)



No.8 CWD Working Group-Dale Garner (IA)



No.9 CWD Working Group-Cal DuBrock (PA)



No.10 Tom DeLiberto USDA/APHIS



They had a meeting March 29, 2013 in Virginia. Dr. Patty Klein was certainly surrounded by some heavy weights in the field of wildlife diseases. So who is Patty Klein going to listen to? The cervid industries three reps or.........?



So what is the AFWA's postion really?



http://news.wildlife.org/twp/a-growing-threat/



Everybody recognizes this unprofessional piece above. It is also on the PA Game Commission web-site below.



http://www.portal.state.pa.us/portal...1253813&mode=2



Captive Cerid Fact Sheet



How did it get there? I'll bet this guy knows.



http://www.portal.state.pa.us/portal...1096120&mode=2



Why is this guy, Cal Dubrock on our CWD Working Group?




It has been brought to my attention that Patty Klein was on the conference call with many of the deer industry last night and wants to meet only one more Monday April 22nd and then send the Standards out for public comment. At the ACA April 9th conference call it was voted upon and agreed that these would not go forward or to public comment until several items were fixed. It can't go to public comment until the industry as a Wholesays it can.
Dwight Grosz is offline  
Old Apr 12th 2013, 07:53 PM   #12
 Four Seasons Whitetails's Avatar
 
  Oct 2009
  upstate ny

Cervid: Whitetail Deer
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dwight Grosz
Hello Jack Shubarth



It has been a few years since I last visited with you. Dwight Grosz President of the North Dakota Elk Growers. I want to thank you for all the posting you did on the forums and blogs in ND during the fair chase initiated measures to ban high fence hunting.



Your commonsense prompted me to post here for the first time. There are several factions involved with writing the Standards. There are three veterinarians and two more on stand by. Our three, Shawn Schafer, Charlie Seale and Eric Mohlman. And the there are three from the Association of Fish and Wildlife Agencies.



Cal BuBrock PA DNR

Dale Garner IA DNR

John Fischer SCWDS



No.1 Cal DuBrock director bureau of wildlife management, former president of the PA chapter of the wildlife society



http://www.portal.state.pa.us/portal...1096120&mode=2



The wildlife society has a lot of functions with wildlife federation persons invited. Below you will find Cal BuBrock rubbing elbows with Larry J. Schweiger

President & CEO National Wildlife Federation. The NWF was the driver for I-143 in Montana and then they drove over to ND to put us out of business. In 2006 I tried to sit in on one of their war room meetings with Land Tawney regional director for the NWF. They threw me out.



No.2 Dale Garner



http://www.mafwa.org/documents/fwhealth_rpt_long11.pdf



Federal CWD funding has been at a $16-17M level. In the current USDA budget request for FY13, USDA suggested an elimination of the CWD funding to states and tribes entirely; only $1.8M would be retained to keep on 30 CWD staff to administer the rule. There may still be CWD funding in FY12 for states and tribes, the level

of which is currently uncertain. A discussion on funding for CWD, independent of federal funding, continued. Some states have some dedicated funding for wildlife

health whereas others do not. Disease spending needs to be driven by biological impacts to the resource versus impact to agriculture (e.g. CWD vs T. Steve Schmitt

(MI) asked what states that currently do not have CWD will do with a lack of federal funding. Indiana plans to

continue CWD surveillance irregardless of federal funding, but the scale may be reduced. Iowa would continue surveillance also, but probably scale this back and concentrate efforts on the most high risk areas. Other states suggested they will only test animals showing symptoms of CWD. The group discussed the need to continue testing captive cervids. If federal funding goes away, does the monitoring of captive cervids disappear with it? Currently, Brian Richards pointed out that the CWD-positive captive herd in Missouri is still not depopulated. There continues to be new cases of CWD detected in the captive cervid industry, notably 6 premises in Saskatchewan and 1 in NE this year alone. Steve Schmitt and Dale Garner (IA) agree that they would rather see DNR funds being spent on testing captives than testing hunter-harvested wild deer at random. Brian Richards USGS informed the group that Idaho had a bill passed through both houses that would reduce the amount of required disease testing in the captive cervid industry. This new rule will reduce testing requirement to only 20% of testable mortalities once every 3 years. This greatly alarmed the committee. If Idaho passes this bill, this might be a slippery slope that other states would reduce their testing requirements and thus import requirements. Currently, most states will not allow importation of captive cervids from a herd without 100% testing of testable animals for 3-5 years. Dan Grove (ND) suggested the captive cervid industry pay their own testing fees, as it should be a small price to pay on the expensive shooter bucks or the need to transport these animals for marketing opportunities.



Well this is all very intersesting. The fed/gov is having to make cuts everywhere and the USDA decided to cut funding here but they still want to be involved in the rule making process. If rules must be enacted for the public good, then the good public has a responsiblity here. Another interesting tidbit is Idaho. They lobbied for reduce testing and do not need to export because they have hunt and slaughter facilities. What is obvious is that these AFWA guys don't want even one state to go first. Idaho wouldn't be an island onto themselves for very long.



No.3 John Fischer SCWDS Southeastern Cooperative Wildlife Disease Study



John is the vice-chair of the fish and wildlife health committee. Part of the Association of Fish and Wildlife Agencies. If someone is a member here they are more than likely wildlife society. On March 29th 2013 they had a meeting in Crystal City Va. Dr. Patty Klein was there. And so were some other persons of interest.



http://www.fishwildlife.org/files/FW...3_NAagenda.pdf



No.1 Bob Duncan (VA) Chair, wildlife society and wildlife federation



http://www.dgif.virginia.gov/about/director/



No.2 Virgil Moore (ID)



No.3 Colin Gillin (OR) oregon chapter of the wildlife society and USAHA



http://wildlife.org/documents/confer...nd/program.pdf



No.4 Bill Siemer (Cornell) wildlife society



http://joomla.wildlife.org/index.php...110&Itemid=354



No.5 Jonathan Sleeman (USGS) wildlife society and USAHA



http://joomla.wildlife.org/index.php...sk=view&id=960



No.6 T.J. Myers USDA/APHIS



No.7 Current Status of APHIS CWD FINAL INTERIM RULE-Patty Klein (APHIS-VS)



No.8 CWD Working Group-Dale Garner (IA)



No.9 CWD Working Group-Cal DuBrock (PA)



No.10 Tom DeLiberto USDA/APHIS



They had a meeting March 29, 2013 in Virginia. Dr. Patty Klein was certainly surrounded by some heavy weights in the field of wildlife diseases. So who is Patty Klein going to listen to? The cervid industries three reps or.........?



So what is the AFWA's postion really?



http://news.wildlife.org/twp/a-growing-threat/



Everybody recognizes this unprofessional piece above. It is also on the PA Game Commission web-site below.



http://www.portal.state.pa.us/portal...1253813&mode=2



Captive Cerid Fact Sheet



How did it get there? I'll bet this guy knows.



http://www.portal.state.pa.us/portal...1096120&mode=2



Why is this guy, Cal Dubrock on our CWD Working Group?




It has been brought to my attention that Patty Klein was on the conference call with many of the deer industry last night and wants to meet only one more Monday April 22nd and then send the Standards out for public comment. At the ACA April 9th conference call it was voted upon and agreed that these would not go forward or to public comment until several items were fixed. It can't go to public comment until the industry as a Wholesays it can.


If i remember right there was a meeting and a vote last Tuesday night. That vote needs to hold true, Play out and revote after Washington!
Four Seasons Whitetails is offline  
Old Apr 13th 2013, 08:02 AM   #13
 
  Apr 2013
  Hazen ND USA
This morning on the ACA Conference call, Dr. Hartman lead off and his opening statement was, "the make up of this working group is flawed, members of the association of fish and wildlife agencies shouldn't be on there."



Shawn Schafer mentioned that Patty Klein cannot make the decision to go forward to public comment on her own. There is a chain of command. She has to report to TJ Myers who reports to Dr. Clifford who reports higher and then all the way to Vilisack.



Let's go back to this meeting,



http://www.fishwildlife.org/files/FW...3_NAagenda.pdf



I just noticed that I posted this link above and it got abbreviated.



No.6 TJ Meyers, Patty Klein's boss is present.



Again, certain AFWA persons should not be on this panel or CWD Working Group.
Dwight Grosz is offline  
Old Apr 13th 2013, 08:06 AM   #14
 
  Apr 2013
  Hazen ND USA
It did it again,



Should be fishwildlife.org/files/FWhealth2013_NAagenda.pdf
Dwight Grosz is offline  
Old Apr 13th 2013, 09:37 AM   #15
 Four Seasons Whitetails's Avatar
 
  Oct 2009
  upstate ny

Cervid: Whitetail Deer
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dwight Grosz
This morning on the ACA Conference call, Dr. Hartman lead off and his opening statement was, "the make up of this working group is flawed, members of the association of fish and wildlife agencies shouldn't be on there."



Shawn Schafer mentioned that Patty Klein cannot make the decision to go forward to public comment on her own. There is a chain of command. She has to report to TJ Myers who reports to Dr. Clifford who reports higher and then all the way to Vilisack.



Let's go back to this meeting,



http://www.fishwildlife.org/files/FW...3_NAagenda.pdf



I just noticed that I posted this link above and it got abbreviated.



No.6 TJ Meyers, Patty Klein's boss is present.



Again, certain AFWA persons should not be on this panel or CWD Working Group.


We also heard state vets make the statement that this needs to go to Dc and get the bugs worked out! If Patty Klein is blowing smoke and some are falling for it, Well that wont work for us either!



Tim hit the nail on the head this morning and i believe a few states are now not so sure of this whole deal.



The no more testing after you are 5 years tested is an awesome start. Now if we can just get our states to go with that rule we will be golden in that area.



I believe there is to much push going on to change a federal rule if it is infact changed your state can inforce the same rule on you again, And more if they wish!
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