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Old May 29th 2014, 12:28 PM   #1
 
  Apr 2009


What a pity that the previous post was locked. I was very interested in what the deer farmers had to say in relation to the purchase of semen straws and guarantees. Please let's continue the discussion.


We have a Deer Farm and an AI company so we guarantee all straws purchased from our bucks, Maxbo Solidcore, Jerome Patrick, Dandy*and Ribot when we do the cervical insemination. The honor system is used.


When we buy semen we only buy from other farmers that guarantee a conception.*We have had no problems with deerfarmers we have purchased semen from in the past concerning*straw replacement.


Interesting enough, deerfarmers have forgotten that one (1) .5cc straw was intended to be used in one doe with cervical insemination. Now days seems all deerfarmers expect all .5cc straws to be split cervically between two does and seem disappointed when both does don't conceive.****
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Old May 29th 2014, 12:40 PM   #2
 Bell's Avatar
 
  Apr 2014
  Greensburg, IN
I too, believe the discussion was educational. I know that I stray off topic a lot. But I enjoy reading deer farmers examples and their feelings on the subject. I also believe others have taught me more most of the time when they have strayed off topic and communicated with their own original thoughts. I will never answer a question in a rigid format on any forum. I do enough of that when I fill out my taxes every April. Lol
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Old May 29th 2014, 02:33 PM   #3
 
  Apr 2009
  Williamsport, PA


Interestingly enough we as an industry have come to accept the fact that 1/2 cc straws are the standard. I think that it would be beneifitaul to go to a less concentrated 1/4 cc straw as is with many other industries.


*


As far as guarantees with the current system, the history of the farm really needs to come into play. Lets say a person purchases a straw for $1000. This straw is of quality to be put into 3 does lap, but the person who buys it is doing Cervical AI and putting it in one doe. Should the buck owner be responsible for the one doe not taking?


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I personally have no problem with a "conception" guarantee if straws are split sensibly in 2-3 does.


*


As for conception, when animals are still born or die a week or two down the road, who is responsible for that?


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In the above example I would have no problem doing a half off the original purchase price or something to that effect.


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As with everything deer related the best road to hoe is directly between the buyer and seller. Everything is negotiable is it not?


*


As a buyer you really need to ask all the right questions when purchases are made. If there is ever any doubt about how a deal is to be structured or what the expectations of each party are... just right it down and have both entities sign it.
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Old May 29th 2014, 02:51 PM   #4
 Bell's Avatar
 
  Apr 2014
  Greensburg, IN
One of the most frustrating situations I ever encountered that involved this issue happened after we sold some semen to what at the time was a new huge deer farm/ preserve operation. The owner called me to inform me the semen they had purchased was deemed to be of unsatisfactory quality by the new high tech machine he had just paid $ ?00,000 of dollars for. We next day aired him new straws to replace those after sacrificing four from simular numbered canes to have them evaluated at Great Lakes and Hawkeye Breeders. The semen was deemed by them to be of excellent quality. A short time later I came to know a person who had managed the reproduction responsibilities for this operation but had quit. He informed me that no one there at the time new how to properly operate or calibrate the machine they had bought to evaluate the semen. I am sure since then they have figured it out. That doesn't rectify the fact that we paid to next day air semen back and forth several times and sacrificed several straws of semen before I assume this individual became aware they were wrong and became satisfied. The buck in question was only ever collected twice on our farm and I know this guy had the same semen as the individual who posted under first fawns in 2014 that they had 10 fawns from one straw out of just three doe.The owner of this huge facility never acknowledged their error to this day but our small farm went the extra mile to protect our reputation. It's not just the little guy who might dishonor your honor system. Beware

Roger,

We don't purchase semen from any auction or individual unless the person who collected the semen is listed
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Old May 29th 2014, 04:16 PM   #5
 
  Oct 2012
  Ohio


i think there are a lot of variables to all this. The purchaser should be the deciding factor. If you want a guarantee don't buy without it. How do we REALLY know the semen quality? (i'll explain in sec)


Do we know if it was handled and stored properly? Where does the fault lie with bad semen that has been handled and stored and no one really knows who is to blame..IF anyone.


I ai'd (cervical) 10 does this fall. I split 5 straws between 2 deer. I just found out 5 minutes ago in the first post that that is a no no but now i know. But anyhow getting back to my points.. i had a friend help/teach me how to do the ai as he has done it for a bazillion yrs so i know it was done properly. He brought a microscope and we looked at every straw after they were thawed. The quality looked like* CRAP in our eyes. Only 1 of the 5 straws was truly good and lively but i wanted to go ahead anyhow. i was sick with worry ALL FALL WINTER AND SPRING because of this. I ended up hitting 60% from ai. 6 bucks 4 does....I had all my does lined up 2x2ready to go... First doe ai'd 2nd one got out so that straw sat for an hr until we were done and ran her back in...SHE TOOK. Only one straw didnt take in both deer and i'm not going after or looking for a free straw. I bought with no guarantee so my bad. I was expecting one deer to take after looking in the microscope..which by the way i will NEVER do again lol)


*


sorry guys...got side tracked and vented / rambled a bit lol


*


anyhow..how does one know whose fault it really is
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Old May 29th 2014, 05:27 PM   #6
 IndependenceRanch's Avatar
 
  Apr 2009
  Edgar, WI

Cervid: deer


Yes all, I locked the prior thread. I was able to do that because it was me that started the thread.


The reason I locked it wasn't that there was some side discussions. I also agree side discussions can be educational. My fear was how the side discussions were heading. Names had already been tossed out, and there was some rather negative feelings being tossed out there. Russell jacked on me about a week ago because some other member complained I hurt his feelings by quoting the members own words and making comments about his own words. I didn't want to get jacked on for starting a thread that resulted in someone getting hurt feelings again.


*


I will say I also think it is amazing how the industry has gotten to where a straw MUST be splittable or it is considered garbage. Personally I would much rather buy a straw that is not splittable but is packed to rationally expect a doe to become bred. A single doe use, cervically used straw, that is priced with the expectation it will be used in one doe. No more "pairing up" does for AI. No more stress keeping a straw from shock cooling between does. Much simpler.


That said I hate that people Lap AI does and split straws into 4, 6, or 10 does. That is a complete abuse of the system and I consider it stealing.
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Old May 29th 2014, 05:34 PM   #7
 
  Oct 2012
  Ohio


I'm here to learn Roger. I learn more here than from my "Vet" lol i THOUGHT the standard was a split. I don't have a problem putting a $100 sraw in one deer...i do however have a problem putting a $500 and up straw in one deer. I'm just a poor working man..BUT ai let's me up my game a tad. Next ai will be one straw per doe :-)


*


and i'm not "defending" to your comment...just making a statement
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Old May 29th 2014, 06:15 PM   #8
 Bell's Avatar
 
  Apr 2014
  Greensburg, IN
I have only a basic understanding of the semen collection and AI process and I leave doing mine to the pros. I do however believe that its not how many million the count is when the semen is thawed. It is how many are still swimming after 4-6 hrs. This is what gets you your AI fawns. Once semen is ejaculated its life span is still just as limited even if extender is used to dilute it. Furthermore I believe if sexed semen was processed fresh instead of next day aired to the lab it would be easy to get good conception AI ing through the cervical method. I think it is most of the time just to old(because of processing time) once it's finally thawed to live long enough to swim far or wait an hour on an egg. I could be way off the mark. My understanding of the whole thing is pretty small.
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Old May 29th 2014, 07:08 PM   #9
 
  Oct 2012
  Ohio


Bell...I've come to believe it's all about TIMING
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Old May 29th 2014, 07:32 PM   #10
 IndependenceRanch's Avatar
 
  Apr 2009
  Edgar, WI

Cervid: deer
D&T Whitetails926381401410085



I'm here to learn Roger. I learn more here than from my "Vet" lol i THOUGHT the standard was a split. I don't have a problem putting a $100 sraw in one deer...i do however have a problem putting a $500 and up straw in one deer. I'm just a poor working man..BUT ai let's me up my game a tad. Next ai will be one straw per doe :-)


*


and i'm not "defending" to your comment...just making a statement




D&T it's all good. I am not offended and if I was so what. Everyone can have an opinion.


However let's use your example of a $500 straw of semen from buck "X'


If it was packed at a concentration that allowed use in 1 doe and not multiple does your straw would maybe be priced at $250 and you would then use it in a single doe only.


As semen is packed and priced now and for many years now, splitting straws into 2 does to me is just fine. It is those places that like to split it into half a dozen or more does that I consider stealing.


Hope I made myself clear. Have a great evening.
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Old May 30th 2014, 06:08 AM   #11
 
  Apr 2009


*We approach this subject from two perspectives.


First, the perspective of the AI technician- as a cervical AI team, our goal is to get the semen into the right place at the right time. With that being said, there are alot of factors we can not control. From the condition of the does, to the adhereance to the hourly schedule, the stress on the does, and the*quality of the semen. All these factors can and will effect the conception rate. Imagine trying to get 30 women to all cycle within a 4 hour period ( in more interesting is , make all the women live in the same house during that time period). Now, lets consider a typical doe herd that are being prepped for AI. Any farmer may have doe lines from different geographical areas, e.g. a farmer in Indiana may have does from Wisconsin, Iowa, Ohio etc...all these different lines tend to have their own natural cycle times. Some does may naturally breed in late october, others in early November and still others in late November. Also, let's throw in a handful of yearling does, some born as late as July.* As you can see , we are trying to force all these does to cycle at our request and ovulate and conceive in the same small time frame. This is a recipe for failure! The facts are that with proper technique and husbandry , the deer industry has been able to successfully artificially inseminate does*at a 50%* or better conception rate, this is truly impressive. With the success from previous years we come to expect higher percentages because we hear of people talking about their success rate being 80% or better. So we get disappointed when we successfully get 50% because we hear others getting 80%. What you are not hearing is that those people bragging about high success rates may actually have skewed their data to acquire the high percentage e.g, any doe that does not look right, the straw does not look right, is a yearling, did not take last two years are thrown out of the over all number of does that were AI'd. It is as if, when we do not get a high percentage ( over 60%) then we as deerfarmers feel that we have not done a good job of deer husbandry so we must inflate our percentages like the other deerfarmers because we surely don't want to look like we don't know what we are doing!!


*


Now, lt's discuss stawing splitting, The industry norm seems to be splitting a *straw cervically in two does. Because this procedure has been done with some success in the past , how does that make it the norm. I am confident that the pioneers in deer semen packaging did not create the first straw thinking that " Hey, we can use this straw to breed two does cervically". Again, the creative skills of the deer farmers and AI techs have discovered that if the does are ready and the semen is excellent then there is a chance that we can split a straw cervically in two does. Once this was done successfully then as the price of semen rose , the splitting of straws cervically became the standard of practice.*It is common sense that if a quality straw is loaded with 50 million sperm* then if you use the straw in two equal portions then each doe should receive 25 million sperm.*Now if the straw is not of excellent qualtiy or has " air bubbles" ( we see this way to often), then we can assume that each doe got less that 25 million sperm if we split the straw. As a matter of record, we check all straws under the microscope before insemination, this only tells us if there are live sperm in this straw, this does not tell us anything else.*Yes, we split straws cervically at the request of our clients and Yes, we split straws cervically at our farm so we are not agaisnt splitting straws*, what we have a difficult time explaining to deerfarmers is , If the does are in great condition and cycling at tjhe right time* , If the semen has been put up so that is excellent quality then*there is a better chance of your doe conceiving than if any of the factors are not optimal.
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Old May 30th 2014, 09:54 AM   #12
 Bell's Avatar
 
  Apr 2014
  Greensburg, IN
Could someone explain the life span of semen from the point of ejaculation through processing, freezing, thawing,and or sexing then freezing thawing then finally the AI. I'm concerned some semen may appear to have great motility shortly after it's been thawed(for example when we look at it with our microscopes just before we AI ) but may all be dead inside our doe within an hour. Could this only be sometimes a result of the fact that semen only lives so long once it's ejaculated regardless how long it been frozen or how it's been processed? I furthermore suspect this also could be a reason for very poor conception if a synchronized doe for instance doesn't ovulate within that said hour but instead 2 or 3 hours later. I think the certainty of good semen motility after 6 hours is more important even in semen that has been very diluted with extenders to our conception rates than semen that is packed very dense but is near the end of its life span when finally frozen. I would appreciate if someone with knowledge on semen life spans particularly could explain it better. I would like to have a better understanding of this and I think the info would be helpful to us.

Thanks
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Old May 30th 2014, 01:55 PM   #13
 RyanR's Avatar
 
  May 2010
  Stevens Point/Gillett, WI


Bell, from my experience the largest factor to the*life span is the temperature in which it is kept at. Last fall I traveled to IN, collected a buck, and traveled back. I did add extender. The trip was roughly six hours maybe a bit more. When I got back I began processing and the collection was in the low 80%. I then let it cool down for 4 hours and went to warm up the freezer and auto filler to realize the freezer wouldn't work. It took me roughly 16 hours after collection to get frozen and thankfully a post thaw revealed better motility then the first time. I believe what saved it was not having drastic temp changes, either slow cooling or warming. This is also something I have noticed during AI, a doe will have a greater body temperature than the semen which I think could kill within minutes. Especially when they are worked up, I mean I have seen does register a temp of 104, I would be surprised for conception. We always write the temp down right before AI and then come fawning we have a good comparison to make. Ryan
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Old May 30th 2014, 02:35 PM   #14
 Bell's Avatar
 
  Apr 2014
  Greensburg, IN
Ryan

Would letting semen set in a stable environment for 16 hours after collection but prior to freezing it shorten or affect the amount of time the semen will live post thaw in a doe without an elevated body temperature?
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Old May 30th 2014, 05:33 PM   #15
 
  Oct 2012
  Ohio


Would it make sense to take the temp of the deer before ai? and mathc the thawed straw to deer temp? i know that's easier said than done in the time constraints we are working with. Or will a few degrees not matter much? what temp should we thaw straws at? 100 102???. Sorry..i didnt pay good attention to the process..i was ai'ing..i was doing the easy part
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