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Old Sep 13th 2014, 08:48 AM   #1
 Bell's Avatar
 
  Apr 2014
  Greensburg, IN
I think the industry desperately needs to form a new hunting ranch council. Hunt prices are getting so ridiculously low. Why??? The breeder markets and the producer are not going to survive. It would be a great strategy by our opposition to go into a state, open a hunting ranch, and tell everyone to raise a look of deer that the majority of hunters don't want to shoot. Then undercut all the other preserves in that states hunt prices until they cant pay the producer enough so that they can balance the books. Undercutting each others hunt prices to get market share is destroying the deer business. My opinion is we should work to find a superior better looking animal to attract our hunters and try to charge even more than our competitors. Find a way to attract hunters who have never hunted behind a fence. Offer a superior product and service instead of trying to grab another preserves existing clientele by undercutting their hunt prices. That will destroy us all!
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Old Sep 13th 2014, 11:09 AM   #2
 Wild Rivers Whitetails's Avatar
 
  Apr 2009
  Northeast Wisconsin

Cervid: Deer Farming
Every ranch with any integrity is trying to offer a superior product and experience. The problem is most people shopping around are looking at price and score period. It is hard to convey those other intangibles in marketing. The bad part is, they may go to a low priced place and have a bad experience which turns them off of ranch hunting permanently.


As to raising deer people want, people want everything from a-z. Most don't know what they want until they see it! You have to have every style and size available because you never know what they will like. Most folks have never seen a deer that scores 200", only small typical 8 pointers. So they don't even know these deer exist until they see them. Variety is the spice of life!
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Old Sep 13th 2014, 11:16 AM   #3
 Four Seasons Whitetails's Avatar
 
  Oct 2009
  upstate ny

Cervid: Whitetail Deer
Bell974761410626915



I think the industry desperately needs to form a new hunting ranch council. Hunt prices are getting so ridiculously low. Why??? The breeder markets and the producer are not going to survive. It would be a great strategy by our opposition to go into a state, open a hunting ranch, and tell everyone to raise a look of deer that the majority of hunters don't want to shoot. Then undercut all the other preserves in that states hunt prices until they cant pay the producer enough so that they can balance the books. Undercutting each others hunt prices to get market share is destroying the deer business. My opinion is we should work to find a superior better looking animal to attract our hunters and try to charge even more than our competitors. Find a way to attract hunters who have never hunted behind a fence. Offer a superior product and service instead of trying to grab another preserves existing clientele by undercutting their hunt prices. That will destroy us all!




I believe we just read not to long ago about a group of guys getting together in Pa doing just this and i believe they caught grief over it. Not sure how that ever turned out. *Sad to say but there are going to be no changes in our industry until we beat these Govt's that are against us. We cant show how good we are when we have them preaching to the world how bad we are. That will not change until we get a live test for CWD so we can prove for a fact that we are clean and second we need every state to have cases in court fighting for our industry as a whole. After this last ruling the guys in Mo need to start throwing lawsuits at every angle they can.*


I dont believe we need a change in the look of any animals. Haters are haters and will always be haters,regardless the look of the buck. If there are to many deer out there then our product and demand are screwed up. Farms and ranches will close and farms and ranches will grow. *Everybody saw dollar signs with our false breeding market at sales and such and many guys saw that,threw up fence and bought high dollar deer that were not high dollar deer, now they think their deer are worth more than they really are. I believe there are many problems we need to slay but untill this CWD crap comes to a head and we destroy those that lie about us with proven facts that we are clean we will be beaten and blood or other live tests are the only way to prove that!!!
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Old Sep 13th 2014, 11:23 AM   #4
 Bell's Avatar
 
  Apr 2014
  Greensburg, IN
The margins aren't currently adequate to keep the producer or the breeder market from going under.
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Old Sep 13th 2014, 05:25 PM   #5
 
  Sep 2014
  Canton, OH
To Many Bucks Not Enough Hunters Spells More Product Than Demand Which Equates The Market They Pd Us 10,000 For 200 Class Shooters 7 Years Ago @3 Years Old Now They Pay Us 12000 For A 300 Class @3 Years Old

Times Change Grow What They Want The Money Is Still There ..Same Feed Same Age ,,,We Pay Less For Good Does Now Than We Did Then
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Old Sep 13th 2014, 06:19 PM   #6
 Bell's Avatar
 
  Apr 2014
  Greensburg, IN
There will not be enough hunt bucks again this year. Too many hunt bucks is a lame excuse !!! Texas is producing way more hunt bucks than anywhere. Why are their hunt prices double what you charge and advertise??? Maybe it is because people are NOT there UNDERCUTTING everyone else! The preserves there also still have mostly typical genetics. I don't think it is the grey coats with white socks that the hunter is paying double to shoot in Texas. They can still hunt a deer there that looks like a deer.
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Old Sep 13th 2014, 08:27 PM   #7
 Four Seasons Whitetails's Avatar
 
  Oct 2009
  upstate ny

Cervid: Whitetail Deer
Bell975001410661183



There will not be enough hunt bucks again this year. Too many hunt bucks is a lame excuse !!! Texas is producing way more hunt bucks than anywhere. Why are their hunt prices double what you charge and advertise??? Maybe it is because people like you are NOT there UNDERCUTTING everyone else! The preserves there also still have mostly typical genetics. I don't think it is the grey coats with white socks that the hunter is paying double to shoot in Texas. They can still hunt a deer there that looks like a deer.




Not sure i agree with the look of the buck really being the bigger piece of the puzzle. Look at Bama deer, They supply their own deer and at NADEFA auction they had their prices were smoking and George says buck prices are right on line with Texas. We also have to remember that we do not have to sell our deer at a low price. Get with your farmers in your state and set prices that EVERYBODY will stick to and dont sell them for less.


*Folks cant buy for less if folks dont sell for less.
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Old Sep 14th 2014, 12:25 AM   #8
 jerrilee cave's Avatar
 
  Feb 2013
  Markleville IN


Mike that's easier said than done when people are dumping their animals just to get out of the business!


I imagine there will be a pretty good exodus in PA.


Even if they weren't, there would be those that will still sell for less afraid they wont get them sold or so they don't have losses.*


This ain't Texas, unfortunately.
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Old Sep 14th 2014, 10:18 AM   #9
 
  Nov 2010
  Lanesboro, Minnesota


Remember, Texas has less than .5% of it's land owned by the state. *I saw that 1/3 of Texas is now high fenced. *If you want to hunt in Texas you have to pay a land owner to hunt there. *They don't believe in free-be's. *In Texas you have to "pay to play".


In Minnesota, almost 1/3 of the land is owned by either the state or Federal government. *These acres are gone from our tax-base. *Apparently, the people that have been in power, feel we need more entitlements, that we can't afford. *The "egalitarian" system of hunting the "Obama" deer is the agenda.


At some point, the taxpayers will revolt and put a stop to this.


The problem we are having in this country, is that there are more people voting that get entitlements, than are paying the bills. *Look at the budget deficits!!!


*


Should hunting ranches be "certified" by our associations, or a hunting council set up by us?


This would get rid of some of the rift-raff going on in our industry.


We need preserves to have standards, and provide a good hunting experience to our costumers.*


A "bad" experience by a hunter, is something none of us can afford.


Just a thought.


Gary
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Old Sep 14th 2014, 10:33 AM   #10
 Wild Rivers Whitetails's Avatar
 
  Apr 2009
  Northeast Wisconsin

Cervid: Deer Farming
There will always be a few bad apples no matter what you do. That is true in any business. The only thing you can control is your business. You have to build a reputation.
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Old Sep 14th 2014, 10:43 AM   #11
 Bell's Avatar
 
  Apr 2014
  Greensburg, IN
The terminal market price is the lifeblood of the whole industry. Selling 200" hunts for 5,900 doesn't allow for a profit margin to keep the most frugal producer afloat. People have been exploiting other people and deer in the breeder market for some time. The industry will survive those weasels but if the undercutting one another's hunt prices to get market share doesn't stop we will all die a fast death. Again, my opinion is spend the time and find a higher quality product or try to provide a overall better experience at your ranch and charge more than your competitor. Stop trying to steal existing preserves clients by undercutting. It is selfishly killing the industry.
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Old Sep 14th 2014, 11:27 AM   #12
 richie0033's Avatar
 
  May 2009
  Tuscaloosa, Alabama

Cervid: Whitetail Deer
I agree. Cutting prices the preserves still make money but the farmer loses. Wont be long at that rate there will be no farmers to buy from. Then the preserves are gone. I've always said this biz has to work both ways. And relationships need to be formed to be successful
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Old Sep 14th 2014, 11:46 AM   #13
 jerrilee cave's Avatar
 
  Feb 2013
  Markleville IN
I don't know if this is something the aca can discuss. But as you and I know, we can have a council but there will be those that won't participate and still cut everyone's throats. And at what point does it become price fixing??? This industry is already fragile enough with the CWD issues without eating our own!
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Old Sep 24th 2014, 05:56 AM   #14
 
  Oct 2009
  Sherwood, MI


Trying to type out my opinion as best as I can as an outsider looking in as I have no ownership in either side, just working with preserves for certain clients of mine. To me it looks like simple economics. The industry is producing more and larger deer every year. With the genetics where they are at now should't the 120"-200" deer be able to be produced at lower overhead cost? In my experience the hunters going for the lower cost hunts care first about the hunt/animal and everything else second. If there are two ranches and one charges $1,000+ more for the same quality of animal because they have a fancier lodge, the hunter will go to the cheaper one most of the time. *And when is it throat cutting? If one ranch or farmer can produce the same product as another for less money why should they sell for more money? Isn't this business 101? Produce the best product you can as cheaply as you can and sell the most you can. You hear the reason some sell for what they do is they won't be able to afford another years feed bill so they unload it for less then market average. I see a lot that people want others to charge more for shooters then what they are because that would force the ranches to have to pay more. Or if you don't sell for less they can't buy for less. But are any farmers offering to buy that product so it doesn't drive the average market price down? Like I said in the beginning seems like simple economics, I think you have farmers/ranches that have higher overhead percentages then others so they need to charge more.*
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Old Sep 24th 2014, 06:30 AM   #15
 Show Me Racks's Avatar
 
  Aug 2012
  Billings, MO
As the MDC threatens to close the borders to imports in Missouri, I wonder what the market will do here. The number of shooters will be limited. That should drive up prices. With that being said, is it fair to the preserves to raise our prices? Is it fair preserves bought deer out of state for less than they could have bought them in state prior to the border closing? Another issue deer farms will face in Missouri is the new regulations will detour people from starting new farms, giving us less places to sale our does to. So do we make this up on shooter buck prices? Notice these are questions, not statements. I honestly feel all states need to address these issues now. I wish they had been addressed earlier in Missouri. It is a fine line to walk, preserves need bucks, but need to make a profit. Deer farms need to make a profit also. If preserves raise prices, the number of hunts will decrease. I guess what I am getting at is would it be so bad for the states deer breeders and preserves to get together and set up a fair price for shooters? It would be better for all to just be able to sale to the closest preserve, knowing you are getting the same money you would be elsewhere. Imagine the savings on hauling deer and the hours on the phone. I am sure this will ruffle some feathers, but I have seen the shooter buck prices lower in the last few years as feed prices and fuel have increased, yet I have not noticed a change in preserve prices. I think this is a serious issue that needs addressed in every state, or maybe even by NADEFA or the ACA. Maybe we need to spend as much time making things fair to all as we do fighting those who oppose us. Any thoughts are welcome. This is something that has been on my mind lately. Even though your state my not be closed to imports now, that might be changed before you know it.
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