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Old Feb 23rd 2010, 05:37 PM   #1
 South Alabama Whitetails's Avatar
  Jul 2009
  Deer Park, Alabama

Cervid: whitetails
Before determining which genetics you can afford you must know which market you are targeting. I agree that you should buy good genetics at a minimum and if the target market is the breeder market then you need highly advertised and high quality genetics. If the market is shooters, the economics with the high end genetics does not work.

In the shooter market the pedigree want impact the price. Size and look will be the determing factor on pricing. There is a lot of good semen that will produce without the marketing that can be bought for $200 a straw. This can be supported by the shooter market.

I am not trying to start a war but simply think you should know which market you are going to be able to sell to before you decide which genetics you can afford. For me,in a closed state, I believe the breeder market will be saturated soon. Most of our deer will end up in the shooter market which is ok if your cost structure is not so high you lose on each deer.
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Old Feb 23rd 2010, 06:24 PM   #2
  Aug 2009
  Ames, Iowa
Deerchaser, good for you. I'm glad to see someone giving the new guys a more realistic point of view.
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Old Feb 23rd 2010, 06:47 PM   #3
 Predator3's Avatar
  Apr 2009
  Defiance, MO

Cervid: Whitetails
We started out with the goal of selling shooters. We soon learned with out the high quality genetics we were stuck with the does. Couldn't give them away. Now we have very good genetics and have no trouble selling the does. In my opinion the higher price we paid has more than made up for it self. Pay $5,000 for a doe easier to sell. Pay $1,000 and spend the next so many years feeding her. Just my two cents worth
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Old Feb 23rd 2010, 07:00 PM   #4
 South Alabama Whitetails's Avatar
  Jul 2009
  Deer Park, Alabama

Cervid: whitetails

I completely agree if you are intending to raise breeders. My point is we can't all raise breeders. Without a shooter market the breeder deer is worthless and would go the way of the emu, but thankfully we have an end market for our products. So I am saying new farmers should decide which market, breeder or shooter, they are targeting to sell to. It is hard to make it selling shooters off the best genetics money can buy. On the other hand if I was going to target the breeder market I would want the best pedigree in the market. In my case with closed borders, and everybody jumping in the breeder market, I think the breeder market will overrun the shooter market. Therefore I am going to try to rasie good shooters without the super pedigrees that some deer have. I may be headed the wrong way but as an accountant by trade I know that I can not invest in the best pedigree and expect to sell shooters and survive. The numbers don't seem to work.

Just my opinion but I don't believe there is room for everyone to be in the elite breeder market. To me it is similar to buying a car. There is a market for a Ford and a Mercedes. You can't sell a Ford to a Mercedes customer but neither can you sell Mercedes for a construction vehicle. They are both desired and needed but the cost structure to produce determines which one is best for each situation. Believe me, if I thought the breeder market would always be this strong in Alabama I would be trying to raise breeders not shooters. It would definitely be more fun to have the best deer in the state but we can't all have that distinction.

I believe there is ample room for a midlle market. This middle market is raising shooters. That doe you bought for the breeder market that does not produce 280 inch offspring may not be suitable for the breeder market but what if you had a strong group of breeders raising deer for shooters? She would be great for raising shooters. We would both win. You could get more for your doe and the guy raising shooters without all the overhead for high end facilities could survive selling good deer but not the best deer. Lets face it none of us are going to sell a Maxbo to the shooter market. But with the right cost structure you can survive selling shooters.

Compare this to the cattle market. I doubt many of us are getting registered cattle when we go to the steak house which is the end market for cattle. They have farms raising high end breeders and farms raising beef cattle - middle market. They both go through economic downturns and upturns and survive but without the beef cattle the breeders could not survive and vice versa.
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Old Feb 24th 2010, 03:21 AM   #5
 Four Seasons Whitetails's Avatar
  Oct 2009
  upstate ny

Cervid: Whitetail Deer
Well over on the other posts eric and john are going back and forth on the auction side of things.I would think with all of these sales going on for the breeder market they could have at least one sale where a guy could sell shooters if they had them to move.I think one sale would show how many shooters there are out there and how the demand is to have some.Mabey a guy could go for both ends and have a herd of shooters and mabey a small group of breeders and mabey get luckey and make the next superbuck.It just seems like there is more talk on the breeder side (money) than on the shooter side.
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Old Feb 24th 2010, 04:35 AM   #6
  Jul 2009
  Greenwood, IN (For now)
Its simple economics on this whole issue. The breeder market is a pyramid its not an end market. Unless the focus changes that people are producing products for the end market the breeder market is going to go to crap. Shooting preserves are your customers breeding customers should be a secondary concern. The sad part is some how the industry has gotten all twisted around and the breeding market has some how become the primary with the hunting as a secondary. People are breeding deer that in the end may have no outlet at least not at the prices they are wanting for them right now. Enough of my rant though.

I agree with Predator. You need to start out with quality genetics. With out a good foundation it can take you years to get your herd up to speed so it can compete. You pay for the genetics one way or another. You're either going to pay up front or your going to pay on the back end in lower profits. The way I figure it the hunting market is looking for 70-80% typical deer in the 140-180" sizes. If you can breed good genetics you can produce that size and look at 2 1/2 to 3 1/2 instead of needing to wait 3 1/2 to 5 1/2 to sell your deer. The less time the deer needs to stay in your pen the better off you are going to be. You'll have less feed, less chance of death loss, and overall high profits. You will also have the ability to produce some deer for the breeder market as well. You will need an outlet for your does and as previously stated by Predator good quality genetic does you can sell while low quality genetics (or no name) are hard to get rid of. Focus on the hunting market but produce a product that can be utilized in the breeding market.
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Old Feb 24th 2010, 04:42 AM   #7
  Apr 2009
Acutting- I have been reading this forum for a couple of years and I have to say that your statement " The breeder market is a pyramid , its not an end market" is the most profound and accurate statement that I have ever read on this forum. Thank you for putting into words what so many can't seem to comprehend!!
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Old Feb 24th 2010, 05:13 AM   #8
  Apr 2009
  Clarksville , Iowa
Well , if you raise cows ,sheep,chickens, pigs , ect. there is an end market and in our business we have the hunting reserves as the end. All of the daddys and mommies of all these other species are used in a like manner and if the deer business/reserve industry would market " shoot your gun off twice instead of once and get some better meat ,too ....we would have an end for shooter does and take the burden out of raising them and give the hunter more opportunities to shoot and enjoy his experience. Everybody smiles. Jim
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Old Feb 24th 2010, 05:26 AM   #9
  Jul 2009
  Greenwood, IN (For now)
Very good point Spiderman. From what I'm understand you are suggesting we market in a manner that you buy a buck and you get a doe or something similar. It would utilize both the buck and doe so you end up with no excess in the market as far as does go. Its a great idea.
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Old Feb 24th 2010, 06:16 AM   #10
  Feb 2010
  Snead, Alabama
Deerchaser, From what I understand Alabama is fairly infant in the whole deer industry compared to other states(Texas, Pennsylvania) for instance. What makes you think the breeder market will be saturated soon when these states have been doing it and still going strong for thirty years.
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Old Feb 24th 2010, 08:32 AM   #11
 Rick's Avatar
  Apr 2009
  West Salem, Ohio

Cervid: Whitetails
Everyone needs to realize that all animal industries or markets has at least 2 sides a breeder market that brings a higher price and a , shooter, meat, wool, you name it.

So our industry is no differenet than any other animal industry out there, I would never, consider our breeder market a pyramid scheme or type of market or you would also have to say that all animal industries are pyramid schemes.

You are correct though to say that the end market is shooters, and with out the shooter market there will be little or no breedeer market.

What do you all think about the show dog market, dogs worth thousands of dollars, what is there end market, its not pets, meat, fur, etc...... I guess they have no end market except for show....
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Old Feb 24th 2010, 08:36 AM   #12
  Jun 2009
Rick you are right.

The Horse Industry, The Cattle Industry, The Hog Industry, How about Trophy Bass???..Bottom line is people will always pay a premium in any of those industry for the best stock and the same is true in the deer industry.

As Ray Favero always says there will always be egos to drive any top end breeder industry and people always wanting the best.
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Old Feb 24th 2010, 08:57 AM   #13
  Jul 2009
You all make good points. However, I think what makes the deer business different than the cattle business, hog business ect. is the ratio of breeder animals to market animals. The percentage of people getting breeder price in other animal industries is very small compared to the total amount of animals out there. The deer industry is simply too top heavy with breeder animals. Other animal industries with this structuring have .......had difficulties.

What causes this? One word..does. Cull bucks go down to the hunting preserve and you get a decent price for them, but does as shooters aren't worth their feed. It's that simple. And the reason is anyone can get a doe hunt outside of high fence quite reasonably.

So to improve their bottom line everyone tries to sell their cull does/ new doe fawns as really the only option that makes sense financially. This would work if the does died off as fast as they are born, but they don't. I know we have 14-15 year old does that we won't let go because they produce 180-200 inch bucks consistently. Does will overwhelm everyone eventually until people realize 90% of the does will not sell for breeders. Just like all the other animal industries most animals are not breeders.
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Old Feb 24th 2010, 09:21 AM   #14
  Jul 2009
  Greenwood, IN (For now)
Fars you are right and Rick I don't disagree with what you are saying. The point is the way the industry is running right now more and more breeders are popping up all over the country yet the need for shooters sadly does not seem to be increasing at the same rate. So what you are ending up with is a pyramid scheme. Breeders are selling to new breeders who will sell to newer breeders and so on. Don't get me wrong I understand needing to make money off the animals and pay the bills. What I'm saying is sooner or later the breeding market will end up drying up. There will always be a need for good producing deer just like any other industry. But there are farmers who seem to be dedicating there whole operation to nothing but producing breeder bucks. People are seeing these high prices coming from breeders and now everyone is trying to sell "breeder" deer to bring in more money. Yet in the end its like the dairy industry a gallon of milk is still a gallon of milk doesn't matter if it came out of a free cow or a $10,000 dollar cow (i'm not getting into the arguement of there are different qualities in the milk and so on) to your average consumer it doesn't matter where it came from its a gallon of milk. Just like the deer 150 inch deer is just that. It doesn't matter to the hunter if that deer had a $10,000 dollar straw of semen to create him or a $100 dollar straw or came out of a $500 doe or a $5,000 doe. My overall point is I think a lot of people are losing focus on the big picture. Either way this discussion needs to be taken to a different thread at this point its some what off topic from the original purpose of this thread and should be discussed in a more private setting anyways.
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Old Feb 24th 2010, 10:18 AM   #15
  Apr 2009
  Ewing, Illinois
I have always told everyone that we were raising shooter bucks. We only want to keep about 10 does. We hope to get 7 three year old shooter bucks a year out of these does. We now have 11 does. Our does we AI'ed this year should produce good quality bucks for us, and hopefully we can sell a few does to shooter breeders. Our AI does fawns will stay on the farm this year, so this will leave us with more does than we want. The truth in any livestock farming is you eventually sell or eat you does. This years live bread doe fawns are not needed either. Our breeder buck is a good shooter producer, but his does are shooters also. We have decided to advertise what we have and if they are not bought as 2 day old fawns they will become slim jims this fall. Some will say that's horrible you can't just kill your pets and eat them. Yea i can! I have done it with my beef cattle for years. It will cost me to have these animals processed, but my friend and family will enjoy the sausage. I would rather spend the money to give them away as food than keep them and spend the money on feed for them and their daughters and their daughters daughters. Reality has to come into view sometime folks!
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