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Old Mar 8th 2016, 07:05 PM   #16
 Bell's Avatar
 
  Apr 2014
  Greensburg, IN
sharkey1064451457410042


It's been a few years & it hasn't come up again, but I'm still curious.

If we cross a P1 (from a true breeding & predictable line with no outcrosses for five generations) non typical, with a P1 typical, what will the F1 offspring look like? This should give us an insight into which genes are dominant. I'm not interested in crosses from F1,F2, F3 animals as wont give us a definitive answer, we need to know how the F1's look. Once we establish this we can reproduce these F1 animals with predictability.

How many people keep track of their genetics this way? How do you guarantee the heritability or "pass down" any other way? Is it all just a gamble?I believe some of this depends on which P1 parent was non typical. Heritability of antler traits are different from each sex. Inside the reproductive cell it is a 50/ 50 split of the each parent. There is matter attached to the outside of the cell that may affect body size and mass. The mother is the 100% contributor to this material
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Old Mar 8th 2016, 07:09 PM   #17
 
  Dec 2010
  Sydney, Australia


P1 is the parental line, it can be a subspecies so long as the phenotype & genotype of that sub species is tight, there really shouldnt be hybrid vigour from any pairing of the P1 line. Myself, I am happy call animals which were out crossed at least five generations beforehand & then selectivly bred P1 animals. If all the grandchildren resemble all the grandparents you should have a P1 line.


it is possible to produce a line of magnificent true breeding animals which should not need to be outcrossed from two different P1 lines. It just takes a couple of decades at least 5 or 6 generations & thousands of culls. Who has the patience & determination?
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Old Mar 8th 2016, 07:13 PM   #18
 
  Dec 2010
  Sydney, Australia


Bell, the trick is learning the recipes for heritability. Once you have predictable & true breeding lines you can establish & repeat these recipes with 99% predictability, like my recipe for red deer. Only P1 type animals will let you do this with certainty.
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Old Mar 8th 2016, 07:15 PM   #19
 Bell's Avatar
 
  Apr 2014
  Greensburg, IN
Sharkey

Is it correct after the F1 generation that the same benefit of hybrid vigor to antler expression will not occur again no matter how far down the line if the same subspecies is reintroduced?
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Old Mar 8th 2016, 07:28 PM   #20
 Bell's Avatar
 
  Apr 2014
  Greensburg, IN
sharkey1064631457496802

Bell, the trick is learning the recipes for heritability. Once you have predictable & true breeding lines you can establish & repeat these recipes with 99% predictability, like my recipe for red deer. Only P1 type animals will let you do this with certainty.

I have been going about this the same way without understanding. It is nice to understand why.
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Old Mar 8th 2016, 07:37 PM   #21
 
  Dec 2010
  Sydney, Australia


Lets take a very simplified look look at what hybrid vigour really is (there is some gaps in this, its omly an analogy ok).

It's like introducing genes to each other for the first time. The best genes & those for best fitness & health are usually dominant (I like to think genetics is kind to us). They can only be introduced for the first time, one time.*
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Old Mar 8th 2016, 09:56 PM   #22
 
  Aug 2012
  Waynesville, Ohio
Sharkey,

You have a wealth of knowledge in this subject that really excites and tickles my feeble mind..... I also like the F4 animals you speak of and in today's time and market even finding a carefully bred whether it be intentional or accidental F4 animal is tough to do.... the F4 or F5 is the best place to start if you are willing to put in the time to get a true P1 animal! But with that said and the way that we track and dna animal's today it's also kind of easy to pick out that specific animal one might be looking for and since the animal's parents might not have been the best producer you might be able to buy that animal at a decent price and not all hyped up! I do have a question for you and would like to start a thread on Facebook also but let's say we have a nicely bred F4 or F5 tightly bred animal and we breed that back on the original P1 where does that take us?
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Old Mar 8th 2016, 10:11 PM   #23
 Bell's Avatar
 
  Apr 2014
  Greensburg, IN
Ezra

I believe the cross you have mentioned would be considered an F4b. Crossing back to the P1 line would decrease predictability of the desired traits you have been breeding for.
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Old Mar 8th 2016, 10:28 PM   #24
 Bell's Avatar
 
  Apr 2014
  Greensburg, IN
Finding an F3 "Ace" that has been patiently built with the desired traits would save you an incredible amount of merciless culling. Much more than DNA goes into breeding an incredible new pure bred F5. Hundreds of deer will have likely been culled along the way.
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Old Mar 8th 2016, 11:07 PM   #25
 
  Dec 2010
  Sydney, Australia


Yes, If you breed a F4 back to a P1 you have a F4b which still isn't true breeding.


Lets say you were trying to cross small P1 deer with big antlers on small bodies to big bodied *P1 deer with relatively small antlers to body size, to produce a line of large deer with large antlers to body size. Now after four generations you have just reintroduced one of the elements you were trying to erase as well as the element you are trying to strengthen. You have just brought back either small deer or small antlers & with no hybrid vigour now. That could mean another 5 generations without reaching the P1 now.*


*


For me, as a breeder, I'd rather have good P1 does than magnificent looking but unpredictable hybrids.


DNA is good for looking at the pedigree but just like looking at the pedigree on a piece of paper it tells me little about the conformation of the animal. I need to see it too to make sure it conforms, remember genetics is random in most cases. How often have we seen animals with great pedigree but all four legs are different length & dont match the body? Always look at the pedigree, but if the animal does not conform it must be culled, no matter how good it looks on paper.


*

*
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Old Mar 8th 2016, 11:16 PM   #26
 
  Dec 2010
  Sydney, Australia


Yes, getting a F3 "Ace" is like winning the lottery. There is still a long way to go to get his grand children to consistently look the same as him & produce their own grandchildren to the same phenotype. If you produce this foundation all sorts of wonderful recipies could be baked into magnificent looking "terminal" bucks just by using different P1 sires which express very different strengths. This is how you get the most out of hybrid vigour, but you must never polute your *P1 herd.
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Old Mar 9th 2016, 10:07 AM   #27
 Bell's Avatar
 
  Apr 2014
  Greensburg, IN
I wonder if there will come a time in the whitetail industry when we will be able to thumb through an auction book and define a consignment as a P1. The benefit of hybrid vigor could also help the deer industry make incredible strides if it is understood and properly utilized.
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Old Mar 9th 2016, 11:35 AM   #28
 
  Nov 2013
  Mission MN
I am not afraid to admit that this is over my head. Interesting concept but can you take a step backwards and layout some basics . F1? F2? F3? P1? Start from the beginning please . Thanks

Kevin
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Old Mar 9th 2016, 11:54 AM   #29
 Bell's Avatar
 
  Apr 2014
  Greensburg, IN
Sharkey

Is the man to explain this from P1 to F1, F2, F3,F4,and F5.

I would also like to see someone from the deer industry in a Q&A session answer what whitetail deer being hyped are F1's. I understand this well enough to not answer. Sharkey is not a whitetail deer breeder so he is unfamiliar with what type of antler expression coincides with our pedigrees.

Here is a quote from a secret group that sums up why I have chosen to remain partially mum.

"I guess financially it's in the interests of those selling semen from impressive F1s to keep this under wraps. Unsuspecting or ignorant individuals are paying big dollars hoping to get similar results but when the offspring falls tragically short of the sire they are forced to go back for more hoping to get better luck next time. Unfortunately they don't realise the odds from a genetic perspective are heavily stacked against them. That said I can understand why those selling the semen would not want the buying public educated on the facts and would be critical of anyone who highlighted what is really going on"
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Old Mar 9th 2016, 12:18 PM   #30
 Bell's Avatar
 
  Apr 2014
  Greensburg, IN
Scott Kent is doing a presentation on genetics at the Nadefa conference in Tulsa next week. This would be a very thought provoking and engaging topic to discuss there. I would love for my Dad to sit in and listen if heterosis were the topic.
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