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CBRanch Sep 5th 2011 01:22 PM

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I noticed a lump on one of my doe's jaw. See attached picture. I have monitored it closely and it does not appear to be getting larger, or smaller. Other than the lump, she appears fine. She has twin fawns and is still nursing them. She is an older doe and with the Texas heat, i am concerned with darting her to get a better look and treat it. Any ideas or help is greatly appreciated. Thanks.

Deer Dee Sep 5th 2011 03:37 PM

Looks like Lumpy Jaw to me.....could also be food impaction.

You can always give an IM shot of an oxytetracycline....long lasting antibiotic and see if it clears up. I know that sometimes you have to lance and drain the lump. But humans can contract lumpy jaw. Once you open that've spread those microrgansims all overthe ground....HIGHLY CONTAGIOUS!!! I'd advize giving her a shot of antibiotic and just keeping an eye on her. If it doesn't go down within 3 days after the shot, I'd contact your Vet.

Headley Sep 5th 2011 04:38 PM

If she was at my farm we would take her out of the heard. Anything that is CONTAGIOUS in the heard has to go no if and or butts. We have to much invested to take any chanches.

Joe Headley

CBRanch Sep 5th 2011 05:14 PM

The articles on lumpy jaw say that it comes from horseflies. In South Texas, we had no flies at all with this drought.

thunder Sep 5th 2011 05:14 PM

looks like an abcess. If it is, it should pop like a pimple in a few days. It will get a black head on it.

Four Seasons Whitetails Sep 5th 2011 05:35 PM

Do not take the doe out of your herd. I am no vet but i have had lumpy jaw in my deer and have never heard this to be contagious. Lumpy jaw is a form of (interdigtal phlegmon) The same cause of hoof rot in cattle. It is found in the soil then contracted by the deer. It is some very nasty stuff and will eat bone. I darted mine with 3cc draxin first and it went away for a couple weeks but then came back. I ended up going with nuflor to get rid of it. I got lucky and mine burst on the outside.If it burst inside their mouth they will die. It took me 5 weeks to save her but ya gota do what you can for them when they are behind that fence. They can be treated for this!!! Call or pm if i can help you..Good luck!!!!

drjoe Sep 6th 2011 07:08 PM

Ok.. Here we go :). This can be one of a few things. Lumpy jaw( actinomyces bovis), woody tongue( actinobacillus ligniersei), or fusobacterium (fusobacterium necrophorum). Yes, you can have woody tongue even when on the jaw but not into the bone. If attached to the bone, likely lumpy jaw, if soft tissue only- likely woody tongue. These are nicknames for 2 bacteria that are very similar. Good thing is, they are both susceptible to oxytetracyclines the best. Noromycin or tetradure at 5cc per 100 lbs in muscle and lasts approx 7 days. If bone is involved, you need to add NaI(sodium iodide) at 6 cc per 100 lbs iv and repeat in 14 days to penetrate into the bone. Fusobacterium is an anaerobic bug that is commonly found in the gi tract of livestock and is commonly found in contaminated soil( years of build up of fecal matter). These abscesses can form from trauma to cheek or face when eating prickly pear and simply biting their on cheeks, or from hard alfalfa stalks poking their cheeks as they eat. Both lumpy jaw and woody tongue bacteria are commonly found in the mouth. The trauma breaches the protective mucosa of the mouth allowing these bacteria to enter the tissue and the body walls off the organisms keeping them from "entering the body." thus abscessing(pus). They are not the same as CL(caseous lymphadenitis) in goats- CL is a different bacteria- archanobacterium pyogenes. In goats, CL when lanced can get into the soil, contaminating it, and you can be guaranteed to see other goats to develop it. Fusoguard works great to prevent the deer abscesses each year, especially in does prior to fawning to protect the fawns. Foods for thought- all these bacteria are treated the same- tetradure, noromycin, or sodium iodide if needed. Hope this helps, God bless and good luck!!

jason e Sep 7th 2011 04:24 AM

Dr.joe, could you give us more info on CL. How is it spread? Is it very contagious? Can it be fatal?

CBRanch Sep 7th 2011 01:45 PM

Thanks all and thanks Dr. Joe. Here is an update:

I sent these pics to my vet and he pretty much agreed with Dr. Joe. My vet said if the lump is hard then probably lumpy jaw and if soft then probably just a food abscess. If lump was hard, he wanted me to treat with Dual Pen (he said he couldn't get any sodium iodide) and if it was soft, to treat with 6cc Nuflor and lance the abscess, flush and squirt a little penicillian in the wound.

I darted her last night. The lump was soft and had no inside of her mouth component. I drained the abscess. It was yellow in color and appeared like a thick flem from a chest cold. It didn't really have a bad smell as i expected. I flushed it out, squirted some pen in the wound and gave her 6cc Nuflor. She appears to be doing well this morning and even came to peanuts (despite being darted when she did it last night).

Based on everything, my uneducated guess is that she got poked by a hard stem of the lousy quality alfalfa that we are getting down here in South Texas.

Scott Heinrich Sep 7th 2011 03:48 PM

Before you medicate the deer to oblivion, watch the lump when she feeds. If it gets larger then it is most likely an impaction. I have a doe that from time to time on any given day looks worse that yours. If I wait a few hours and she chews her cud, the lump disappears, only to return the next time she feeds. After a couple of years this way, I do not think it bothers her.

Four Seasons Whitetails Sep 7th 2011 05:47 PM

cbranch,Mine did the same thing.I drained 33cc of the same puss out of mine and cleaned the same you did.Keep an eye on her because mine came back about a week after i drained it but this time it exploaded on its own and thats when i put her down again and found that i could see her jaw bone and where it ate a hole in it.I had it happen when it was warm and flies were all over it. I darted her once a week for 5 weeks just to keep it clean and keep the maggots out of her jaw.It is some nasty stuff!!

Antlercam Sep 7th 2011 07:41 PM

We had a yearling buck this year that got a much bigger lump about where the lump is on this doe pictured but it went further to the middle of the underside of the jaw. I looked nasty and was almost the size of a golf ball. We darted him and found it felt quite hard. I was worried it was lumpy jaw but when we squeezed it hard we could feel some mushy tissue we thought. I gave him 5 cc of Nuflor Gold in the hind quarter and then we poked the lump in two places with a #18 needle to see if we could pull anything out. We were not able to draw anything out but when we squeezed it hard we started getting some yellow pussy goo. We continued to work at it and got about 3 tablespoons out then we injected 1 cc of Nuflor Gold into the area. (that was not a vet recommendation) When we inspected very closely we found scratches under the jaw that had almost healed and he had a little scratching on the top of the velvet on his half inch antler growth. He had apparently stuck his head through the fence and was slightly injured. He fully recovered and the nasty lump disappeared. He has a nice rack and will shed the velvet very soon. Nuflor Gold has a bit of Banamine which reduces pain as i understand it.

drjoe Sep 7th 2011 07:55 PM

CL is contagious from goat to goat. It comes from contaminated soil as when an abscess busts and enters the soil It is best to have a man handle it by opening it up and flushing it but take it away from soil and do on concrete. I make an x incision and go to the borders of the abscess, clean it out and flush then squirt strong tincture iodine in it and that's all. Anything else beyond that is busy work ;). It is not fatal, mainly cosmetic but breeders do not want it in their herd. Do not use any vaccines against it because they do not work. Seriously. We test and quarantine new goats to a herd and send samples to our state lab, if positive, we recommend not to buy. But I believe if you have goats, it is likely in at least one goat. For NaI, you can have it compounded at a compounding pharmacy which costs 3x more than it used to but it works and is worth it.. When you explore these abscesses, make sure they don't communicate from the outside into the mouth, impactions.. If an impaction, surgery is needed to reduce this space and allow it to drain from the outside. Surgery to reduce the dead space is critical to prevent recurrence.

Scott Heinrich Sep 8th 2011 04:18 PM

Dr Joe, although I have never seen or heard of CL in wt deer, one thing you failed to mention is that humans can contract CL from an infected goat. You say it is cosmetic, but if you ever open up a CL infected goat you will find the abcesses and legions throughout the muscles and organs causing the meat to be unedible and I would suspect some health issues as well. In all the years we have raised goats, we have only seen 1 case of CL in a doe we bought at an auction. We euthanised the doe after the cultures came back positive. Fortunately the abcess did not burst and we have had no reoccurance in any of our other goats.

drjoe Sep 9th 2011 07:46 PM

hey folks- Sorry, i did not explain why i said "it is best a man should..." The only case we have heard of a human contracting an infection with the bacteria was a woman.. Jason e, Scott is correct that humans can contract this so wear gloves when opening these lesions also, A rare circumstance can occur where an abscess can actually bust on the back side and into the tissues and spread thru the lymphatic system of goats and into lymphs nodes, even lymphs nodes in the body cavity and can bust and condemn a carcass... when they bust into the tissues, the body will continue to wall the organism off and create a grape like cluster of CLs(rare).. I have not seen a carcass condemned in TX from exterior CL at a slaughter house but I will check with the USDA and TAHC to confirm.. I have not cultured Archanobacterium(CL) from masses like these only from the lungs of a chronic pneumoina- very bad!!! as for the comment about "cosmetic", 95% of the time they are extremely easy to deal with.. if you have questions in the future, contact a veterinarian.. God bless and good luck

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