Old breeders vs new breeders

I have been laying low here on the forums lately but decided I would toss this out there for some discussion.

A couple of days ago I was talking with a friend of mine about, you guessed it, deer.

During the discussion and after wards I started thinking about quality breeder bucks and what is better. Old or new breeder bucks.

Some of the old breeders from years ago are still available through the semen giving us a chance to use them in the deeply bred does of today. Some of these old breeders have been very productive through their sons and some through their daughters. But what would happen if they were given a shot at today's deeply bred does? Would they be even more productive? Or do today's deeply bred bucks have the upper hand and will eventually show they are even more productive than the old timers who we all know of from years ago?



Note: This discussion is NOT intended to promote nor discredit any particular buck or bloodline.



For example.

Sundance is a well known buck from the past. His production through sons and daughters is well documented. Would he out perform the "bucks of today" if given the chance? Or does a buck from the modern era like say Ramsay have the upper hand on him? (Ramsay being a great great grandson of Sundance)

Another example.

Thunder is another well known buck of the past. He produced many good sons and his girls were also very productive. In today's deeply bred does would Thunder be better, or would a modern era buck like QuickSilver do better? (QuickSilver is a great great grandson of Thunder)



We looked at the bucks, now let's take a look at the doe side of the equation.

As an example.

Pebbles is a well known producer from the past. Many great sons of her own, but her daughters, granddaughters and great granddaughters all produce as good or better. How would Pebbles produce if given the deep and solid foundations of today's herd sires?



Again this was not intended to promote nor discredit any animal or bloodline.



But the question is...

Do you think an "old timer" sire in today's does would be even more explosive than today's sire's given the production those old timers had back then? Or do you think today's sire's will provide better production when given the chance?

WRW_2 said:

Roger



First I would like to say it was great meeting you and everyone else from the forum at the Top 30.



We are concentrating on the "Old School" sires such as Thunder, PA Geronimo, Banshee, BJ, Little Boomer, Martygraw/Maxbo/Max, Sunny, and Bucky to just name a few. If this whole thing works out, we plan on having good, deep bred base does from proven lines, both "New and Old School", and then hitting them with the "Old School" proven producers. We feel this will produce even better sons than they did in the past, or at least give us some outstanding, giant framed, top of the line shooters, which is the end market for 99% of the bucks born anyway.

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Mark, it was great meeting you as well.

When I am at the sales I get a little over whelmed with all the people walking around. I get a rather uncomfortable feeling in crowds, and sometimes my mind starts slow down. I hope no one ever takes me as being unfriendly in those cases.

roughcountrywhitetails said:

I believe the old would blow the new out of the water if used in the doe's of today. It makes me sick to see sires like PA Geronimo, Max, Sundance, and Highroller passed by like they are nothing more than an old computer that is out of date for a new younger buck. The new younger sires may have great pedigrees and may be a huge yearling or two year olds, but thier is still one thing the old timers have the newbees do not and that is the proven ablity to produce at a high level.

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I don't know which way to think about the old school proven sire's. Part of me says if they were able to produce so well with those old school does with pedigrees that were stacked very little, what could they do with today's deep and well bred does.



But then part of me thinks the very fact today's does and bucks are stacked so deep they have no choice but to produce. Yet we see some of these deer don't produce as anticipated. It still takes that certain something special in a cross to make it spark and produce big.



I guess by looking at how I breed my herd it is easy to see which way I am going the most often.

I have isolated certain animals from the past with proven pass-down abilities and specific characteristics I desire. I then stack those proven animals through line breeding. So far I am pleased with my results, but I am excited about what lies ahead yet, as I am only part way into the plan I established when I rethought my program back in 2002.

I also have a couple of projects using the alternative method of breeding.



For me it is hard to play to many angles in the breeding game at one time though since we keep our numbers on the farm so low. The wife told me that the absolute max I can have is 10 breeding age does per year, and that they all must be the very best of the best in quality. This mandate from the boss means some really good does have been sold and this next summer will be no different. But if I don't keep her happy where will I live?