Should be a good topic. I choose BIG in the Pen. I understand the importance of pedigree particually in the does. But I see several pics of bucks that are at best average then comes the earful of what they are out of. You seem to especially hear the PEDIGREES when they don't have it on the head! I have seen online sellers will have a straw of semen and pics of all the past sires in pedigree but NO pics of the buck that they are trying to sell semen from. Hmmm? I also understand if your in business to sell semen and does you need paper. But since 80% of all bucks are shooters (maybe higher)......why wouldn't you want Big on the Head. Bucks like Peach....Thunder....Savage...Sundance...Redoy Bill & Ben... You didn't care what they were out of but you wanted does and bucks from them. Just looking for opinions to use as a barometer. Didn't mean to get so longwinded.
Joined Oct 2009
3,165 Posts | 1+
upstate ny
I have said this all along. If you are an auction guy then you want it on paper( Even though it seems some of the so called longest and best pedigrees have some of the smaller bucks). If you are a stocker guy you dont care about paper and you want production. Production pays the bills while pedigree will sometimes cost a small fortune and sometimes that comes without the production. You just have to pick your poison and go with it. Alot of times its not the paper that pays the bills, When it comes to stockers!!! IMHO!!!!!
Joined Jan 2011
508 Posts | 0+
Lentner, MO
Great Thread. I have pretty much come full circle on this. I started out just wanting to raise deer then got caught up in the hype and wanted to zero in on great pedigrees. I spent quite an bit of time at the auctions last year trying to buy some of those high end does. High end for me anyway $10,000 to $20,000. I never could break into the circle of the higher end deer farms and get the ones I wanted bought. I'm back to where I started just trying to grow a buck that someone else might like the looks of and want to buy. I'll be glad to just do the best I can with the genetics I have especially while all of us here in Missouri are being blasted by our own government.
Bill Mayes
Bill Mayes
The way i look at it! Its comes down to its all about money can you afford the higher end deer with the best peds and can you come out in the end selling shooter out of them deer (i no i cant )so i try to find a happy middle i breed with the biggest bucks with the best peds i can afford and try to move up every year with better genetics ,but in the end its what is on there head that is going to sale.
Joined Apr 2009
1,428 Posts | 0+
Northeast Wisconsin
When you are selling deer based on pedigree you are selling to other deer farmers. That's fine but an industry can't revolve around us swapping dollars and deer. Hunting is the lifeblood of this industry and brings in the new dollars. If you are raising deer that can't ever be hunted, can't make it to hard antler, what is the point? Eventually every buck is a shooter buck and we've never had a hunter ask us for a pedigree.
At the same point have you ever had a hunter ask for DNA "more paper" why the big deal on dna for the price to dna a deer its ridiculous to have them all done when in the end they are shooters
Joined Apr 2009
1,428 Posts | 0+
Northeast Wisconsin
We agree. We guarantee DNA on semen we sell or any animals we sell to the breeding market. We will DNA them then. But to do your whole herd is crazy and pretty intimidating to anyone coming into the business. Pedigrees are useful and important, but we aren't raising the next Kentucky Derby triple crown winner.
I have what would be a record typical had he not damaged a side and has a good pedigree Maximus and still can't sell semen cause I'm not a big name deer farmer. So whats a guy to do.
Bill Mayes....I agree with you 100% The Circle you refer to I call "The Firm". See qzilla you need MORE then both...You need all three. Production (Antlers) Pedigree..and A Name. This year it is Jumbo...Cashwood. Next Year???????? I think a lot of us are chasing our tails trying to catch-up. When we finally get a Nice Buck with a good Pedigree We then get on the list to be accepted into The Firm. lol Easier to get season tickets for the Red Wings! By then My Buck will be Old and Broke just like me! LOL Wild Rivers you make complete sense with the facts that you use. I think that you are right on. If you have to cut horns just to keep em alive and If it weren't for hunters how many of would be raising deer. Who wants to raise animals that for all practical reasons spend every day trying and finding ways to die!! Then if they make it past that they are TESTED to death. Smart Money is in the Feed Industry! Lots of Great Answers here so far all pretty much in UNISON. "Numbers Never Lie"
Joined Apr 2009
1,485 Posts | 0+
Vaughn, MT 59487
I went into this business to have harvestable animals for our harvest facility. After Montana lost the right to have havest facilities I was forced into the wholesale animal supply and meat industry. I'm realistic enough to see I would have to show up at all the big shows and pump mystuff. Well I'm just to old for that driving anymore and would rather have fun with my animals which I love to look at. I realized I would never have a top deer because we just started breeding to late for that type of animal. Like someone said above what is hot today will be left behind tomorrow in the dust. This industry just has moved into such large antlers so fast no body can keep up with the big producers unless they can start from the top end animals in a big way which takes lots of money. I'm happy to supply harvest animals out of State and butcher the lesser animals for food. Most guy will never make it to the top of this game period. Enjoy your animals.
Joined Oct 2009
3,165 Posts | 1+
upstate ny
Tom Gleason said:
How true is this statement. Very true!! Kinda sucks that it has to be that way because we are really all in this together. This argument has went on before..Some breed for looks and some breed for paper. Lots of time the look out produces the paper and cost thousands less. You will never get that through to a paper breeder but thats what nice about this buisness...We all have choices!!!
Mike I know we all have a choices and U R Right we are all in it together. That is why I started this thread to see how others felt and to hear what choices they made and why. But I think a lot of the choices were made after they chased the $$$ rainbow. After the replys I can see a lot of us are experiencing the same feelings. I usually just read or listen on here. My Grandpa always told me..If you're talkin' you ain't learnin' ! He's been gone a long time but I still hear him.
Joined Jul 2009
1,215 Posts | 0+
Deer Park, Alabama
If you don't have deep pockets you can not run in the breeder market. It takes a lot of money to promote a breeder. If you are trying to raise breeders and have to sale them for shooters you will lose! You will be lucky to get back the price of the semen. The shooter market is where most of us are whether we like it or not. Their is plenty of good semen on the whitetail exchange that will produce the shooters everyone is looking for at a price you can afford. I have never seen a deer mounted with a pedigree hanging off his horns.
I am not at all against the breeder market. The high end breeders have greatly improved the quality of the deer in the last several years through AI'ing. The truth is simply there is not room at the breeder level for all of us.
If you are raising shooters, buy good quality does and semen that is proven to produce the 160 - 200 inch offspring consistently and you will do ok. If you are looking to make a lot of money, you better have a lot of money to invest to get in the breeder market.
Look at the cattle market, for every high end breeder there is probably a 1000 people raising beef cattle which is the end market for all beef. I said the same thing about the subject 3 years ago and almost got shot. So please, before you get to excited, this is just my opinion. You make up your own mind but use a pencil and paper to help you decide.
I am not at all against the breeder market. The high end breeders have greatly improved the quality of the deer in the last several years through AI'ing. The truth is simply there is not room at the breeder level for all of us.
If you are raising shooters, buy good quality does and semen that is proven to produce the 160 - 200 inch offspring consistently and you will do ok. If you are looking to make a lot of money, you better have a lot of money to invest to get in the breeder market.
Look at the cattle market, for every high end breeder there is probably a 1000 people raising beef cattle which is the end market for all beef. I said the same thing about the subject 3 years ago and almost got shot. So please, before you get to excited, this is just my opinion. You make up your own mind but use a pencil and paper to help you decide.
My answer: both.
If there are no recognizable names associated with your deer, you will be selling/shooting your does for meat. If you do that, your bucks better produce and you'd better have a low mortality rate or you're going to have fun paying the feed bill, let alone getting your investment back. We all have good money in growing out every shooter.
If they aren't growing some nice antlers, you have nothing- you're out of business. Actually, in this market, I would argue that your 3 year olds better be averaging over 200 or you'll have a tough go.
If you consistently grow out nice deer that have some paper behind them, you hope that one day you grow one nice enough that a bigger player wants to buy and market that deer for breeding. That is the only way most of us will get into the top end market, and I have no issue with that at all.
When we started, I thought it would be great to be a big player in the deer business. Once I got into it more, I realized that I wasn't willing to spend the time or the money to get to the top, and that's fine with me. I have met some great people through the deer business, and I love raising deer (when everything is going well
).
If there are no recognizable names associated with your deer, you will be selling/shooting your does for meat. If you do that, your bucks better produce and you'd better have a low mortality rate or you're going to have fun paying the feed bill, let alone getting your investment back. We all have good money in growing out every shooter.
If they aren't growing some nice antlers, you have nothing- you're out of business. Actually, in this market, I would argue that your 3 year olds better be averaging over 200 or you'll have a tough go.
If you consistently grow out nice deer that have some paper behind them, you hope that one day you grow one nice enough that a bigger player wants to buy and market that deer for breeding. That is the only way most of us will get into the top end market, and I have no issue with that at all.
When we started, I thought it would be great to be a big player in the deer business. Once I got into it more, I realized that I wasn't willing to spend the time or the money to get to the top, and that's fine with me. I have met some great people through the deer business, and I love raising deer (when everything is going well
).
Joined Oct 2009
3,165 Posts | 1+
upstate ny
Jeff23 said:My answer: both.
If there are no recognizable names associated with your deer, you will be selling/shooting your does for meat. If you do that, your bucks better produce and you'd better have a low mortality rate or you're going to have fun paying the feed bill, let alone getting your investment back. We all have good money in growing out every shooter.
If they aren't growing some nice antlers, you have nothing- you're out of business. Actually, in this market, I would argue that your 3 year olds better be averaging over 200 or you'll have a tough go.
If you consistently grow out nice deer that have some paper behind them, you hope that one day you grow one nice enough that a bigger player wants to buy and market that deer for breeding. That is the only way most of us will get into the top end market, and I have no issue with that at all.
When we started, I thought it would be great to be a big player in the deer business. Once I got into it more, I realized that I wasn't willing to spend the time or the money to get to the top, and that's fine with me. I have met some great people through the deer business, and I love raising deer (when everything is going well
I agree with this to a point. 99.9% I guess. My point stops at the part where YOU raise a big breeder and then you sell it to THEM to market it as a breeder. If folks didnt sell their breeders to the top and marketed them themselves there might be a different deer business. I know we all need to pay the bills and i have no problem with the top but if that buck is worthy of a top buyer callin your phone then that buck should be able to sell himself with a little time of ours.
I guess my best example would be Texas Tea, Im sure mikes phone rang off the hook. Who was mike before tea,,,,, Same guy he is today only with a great buck that he marketed and showed what HIS breedings would do and look at the yearlings on the ground today!!! Again its awesome that we all have choices in our great deer business but i will tell ya one thing...If i ever hit the jackpot it wont be sold to someone else to make thousands off of what i made myself....Again IMHO.....Choices!
Jeff23 You do both? If you have does that are giving you 200" 3 yr olds where do you sell those does? So you have fed her for 4 yrs miniumum. A marketable doe today has to be giving 200" 2 yr olds minimum. Hell they have several 200" yearlings and even 300". The death loss for bucks from 2 yrs to 3 yrs is extremely higher. What happens to the daughters that she gave you for 3 yrs while you are waiting to see what the bucks turn out to be? Not to mention that are they are 3 yr old A.I. bucks. So many varibles.........Mike you are right about Micheal Heiter and Texas Tea but that example is a RARITY! It is still about money and when you hear about so many farmers losing their big deer every year it makes us nervous. Especially when we get a Big Buck. Scared to death of walking out one morning and finding him D.O.A. So when The Firm comes a knockin'...??? Some take the money then the buyer takes the credit. Us as sellers think we can reproduce it with the same breeding next year and it never happens. I think we all have a good understanding of the deer business. What I was asking when I started this thread was what choice others had made and a little on why. Like everyones participation!!!!!!!!
stepheck said:
We are trying to transition to doing both. When we got started, we got some decent does, but we thought we could save some money on breeding by using so-so bucks and still make good money on shooters. That was possible... when the shooter market was better. We have been selling some does for meat, that is exactly why I wrote what I did.
Now we are trying to transition the genetic profile of our does, while still holding on to a couple older ones who have shown they can throw some decent shooters, and possibly better. We are keeping some daughters to see if they show heretitability potential, given that they have better "paper" than some of the older girls. With a little better "paper", we will at least have a chance of getting more than meat price for them! We have enough room to wait on a couple deer here or there. The way that I view it, the worst that can happen is that the does still aren't worth anything, but the chances of having bigger shooters should be increased.
I'm not telling anyone what to do, just what I am thinking based on what I am seeing.
Mike: I know what you're saying, and who wouldn't like to reap the rewards that MAY come by taking the chance the Michael Heiter and others have done. The reality is that it takes a lot of time and money to even have a shot at achieving a big time outcome, and at this stage in my life, I would rather make a deal for that deer to be able to be a success for me AND others than roll the dice with my time and money. The big guys are primarily where they are because they've paid their dues, and that is to their credit. As I said, I am content with not being one of the "big guys" at this point in my life.
Again, I am certainly not in the position to be instructing anyone on these matters, but I am just sharing my position.