CWD in Iowa

Everyone in EVERY state should be paying CLOSE attention to what is going on in Iowa and Missouri...............Go to www.thegazette.com and in the upper right corner of the page type in CWD and read the Fri Sept. 21st article about CWD..............You should be worried that YOUR STATE and YOUR FARM could be NEXT!

Wow! Thats some scary stuff. No mention of the 1000's of dead deer and elk that have been hauled into Iowa over the past 30-40 years from states like Wyoming, Colorado, Etc. Just like Missouri, the just assume that the hunting ranch is the problem. Wonder how it always shows up first behind high fence. Oh ya, the are the only ones testing for it. Duh!

Wayne thanks for putting this up on the forum. I would really like to see this eventually go to the members only forum before to much is said here. Here is a direct link to the Gazette article http://thegazette.com/2012/09/21/disease-raises-concerns-about-deer-farms-in-iowa/.



Like Wayne said, everyone needs to pay attention to what is happening here in Iowa as well as in Missouri. I hope every deer farmer and preserve owner is aware of the dangers we are facing with no indemnity. Where else can you find a business that looks so hard for a problem, and when it finds a problem, the only way of fixing the problem is total eradication.



This is just nuts folks and somehow we need to fix it. This can’t be fixed on a State by State basis but has to be done collectively, in my opinion.



Bill, you make some good points and I'd like to add that not a thing was mentioned about EHD in the article. I'm hearing that some in the public are mixing up deer dying of EHD and calling it CWD. That can't be a good thing.

Have you all read the summary sheet done by APHIS? This is on the final federal rules. On page 22, their comment is "the scientific knowledge we have suggests that CWD is not highly infectious." On page 23 it states, "movement of animals under 81.3 already presents a low risk of spreading CWD, even without considering the low risk associated with the pathway of transportation through a state." Maybe the DNR, hunters groups, and newspapers need to read the federal reports done by actual animal health experts, who have actually spent years studying and researching CWD, than listening to rumors, and false statements by groups with hidden or unhidden agendas. We as breeders need to get more involved in responding to these negative attacks, and making the true facts known. The public will only listen to facts presented to them, whether they are false, true, or slanted.



Gary Olson

It seems that eradicating someone's herd is a "taking" which under the law requires compensation, no matter what. This is the type of case that needs to go all the way through the court system.

I agree that this is a "constitutional taking". Our board says that they won't physically take animals anymore because they don't have the funds to pay for them, they are just quarantining the animals so the producer can't move them. The "taking" law is more broad than they understand. "taking" is more than just the physical act of seizing property. A "taking" can also occur when someones property is encumbered, restricting use, regulating it to point that the value of the product has been harmed or destroying it to the point of having no value. I think this has happened in the cases of CWD positive herds. Whether the government agency has or doesn't have the money for the program to compensate the owners for these animals is irrelevant. This would be a very good constitutional law case. This should be fought on the federal level. Is NADEFA up for it?



Gary Olson

Here is an interesting read on what has and is happening with Tom and Rhonda Brakke here in Iowa. It is rather lengthy but I think you will find it well worth your time to read it. This could be happening to any one of us, it just so happens that the Brakkes drew the short straw. This time!







First Case of 5 Year Quarantine or Eradication WITHOUT Compensation in the State of Iowa and the United States



Although this communication is not a "quick" read, it is very informative and detailed in a pending situation for my husband, Tom, and I. This is a first for the State of Iowa and in the United States, 5 year quarantine or eradication without indemnity and will directly impact the producers in our state and across the country AND strongly suggests a regulatory taking of property. I apologize for any obvious anger in my message, but clearly our livelihood and assets are in grave jeopardy. While we certainly understand the political platform of the IDNR to end our industry, it certainly was a shock to have Iowa Dept. of Ag in full cooperation.



Rhonda Brakke



September 11, 2012



To All Deer Farmers,



It is with deep regret to have been informed of a positive CWD test at our location in Iowa. For the past 20 years it has always been our mission and goal to produce and raise healthy animals. Tom and myself have participated in the CWD monitoring program since inception in 2002 and have remained a closed herd for the last ten years. Since that time, 167 of our animals have been tested and found negative until this recent finding. As you know, chronic wasting disease, is a disease that we are unable to control as we are unaware what causes it and how it is spread.



Tom and I are founding members of the Iowa Whitetail Deer Association (IWDA), and have been involved with our state veterinary, and IDNR to establish working relationships in conjunction with the federal rules and regulations to the whitetail industry, creating a legitimate, viable alternative livestock industry. Tom served as chair to the Iowa State Farm Deer council for a number of years as well as board member to the IWDA for nearly eight years and long standing members of NADeFA. I served on the IDNR Hunting Preserve Committee and was instrumental in establishing the rules and regulations for Iowa's hunting preserves.



We currently have 700 head of whitetail deer between our breeding facility (classified as farmed cervidae) located in Clear Lake, Iowa, and hunting preserve in Bloomfield, Iowa. In December 2011 one of our bucks was taken by a hunter and submitted through the Iowa Department of Natural Resources (IDNR) for testing for CWD. The brainstem submitted by the IDNR was submitted along with 4500 other brainstems and shipped to Texas for testing. On July 26, 2012, we were notified of the positive sample, taking nearly eight months to receive such notification. If this test had been accomplished and communicated in the normal turn around time frame of two to ten days, the indemnity monies would have been made available to us. Because it was not, it has created additional hardship for us with the given expenses of more than $100,000 in feed and $30,000 in advertising expense, and hardships on our customers whom were scheduled to arrive in just four weeks from this finding. Again, creating even more hardship as our hunters have paid deposits, taken vacations, and made travel arrangements, many in the form of airline tickets.



The IDNR submitted DNA samples from another source of tissue rather than the actual positive sample for verification that our buck was positive to Wyoming Game and Fish, a Wildlife Agency that supports a political platform to end the cervid industry as a whole, breeders and hunting preserves alike. Since that date, we have requested second verification of DNA sampling by an independent lab for verification that the positive sample was indeed from our buck. To date, Iowa State Ames Laboratory is refusing to release DNA for verification.



Since this finding, the 13 does and one offspring buck which were penned with the positive buck (prior to his being taken to the hunting preserve) were destroyed by my husband and submitted for CWD testing. Of those 14 animals, one doe was found to be positive in the lymph node only, brainstem was found to be negative. Chronic Wasting Disease is a TSE disease of the brain, similar to that of BSE in cattle. The pen of does had been with the positive buck for a period of 4 years, two of those does were 12 years of age and at no time have any of those animals or the breed buck shown any clinical signs of disease. These findings strongly question the infectious and contagious aspect of this prion disease, and since the animals showed no clinical signs, and it begs the question "just how deadly is this disease." According to APHIS, 188,120 farmed cervids have been tested for CWD and 406 have been found to be positive; from 1998 to present.



Wisconsin Governor Scott Walker released a public document stating CWD cannot be eradicated, all eradication efforts have been unsuccessful, AND the landowners, general public and sportsman do not support such activities. Chronic Wasting Disease is proven to be transmitted through contact with infected carcasses and/or intestinal material. “Hunter killed carcasses are a possible source for spreading Chronic Wasting Disease” Mike Miller, PhD, DVM-Colorado Division of Wildlife Research Center of Fort Collins. Far more deer have been killed by a bullet looking for Chronic Wasting Disease than the disease itself has killed!



Effective January 2012, there is no indemnity as the CWD program is out of money and financial resource. However, the 100% testing requirement continues with total eradication of healthy animals putting people out of business WITHOUT compensation. All in the name of CWD for which we do not have any control because of the lack of knowledge of what causes the prion responsible for the disease or how it is contracted, whether by means of genetics or environment. There are monies available to other livestock programs for compensation or indemnity, so how is it there is no indemnity for our industry AND we are the only industry with required 100% testing. Again, CWD is not proven to affect any other form of livestock or humans.



Because of the federal and state regulations requiring animal IDs for tracebacks, this finding has many far reaching fingers and has reached a number of producers in our state and our neighboring state of Missouri. An Iowa Amish producer purchased some animals from us and is quarantined for a three year period because he sold one of those animals with the required health paper and the gentleman who purchased the animal destroyed it for slaughter and did not test the animal. Leaving the Amish producer quarantined for a three year period, our state vet was "kind" enough to knock off 2 years of the five year requirement, because the doe was actually on his property for a 2 year period. How can this Amish producer be held responsible for the actions of the individual whom purchased it from him? Many producers have had to destroy the animals they purchased from us without compensation. Others have been unable to move their animals simply because of the finding in our state, reaching Missouri and most recently Louisiana.



Our industry is being discriminated against at the highest level with the continued requirement of 100% testing and even worse, now no indemnification. The government is abusing their power and destroying our industry pen-by-pen and farm-by-farm in the name of a disease that hasn’t been proven to do anything to native populations or hunting success. We deserve herd management, not herd eradication of healthy animals. Twenty years ago the Iowa Treasury offered low interest link loans to encourage "alternative ag" including cervidae. As I write this letter; our does, fawns, yearling bucks, two-year-old bucks, elk calves and cows are being destroyed for brainstem and lymph node submission WITHOUT compensation. AND the Iowa Department of Natural Resources is planning to force us to maintain our 1.5 million dollar hunting lodge property for a minimum period of five years, a regulatory taking of property. Although Dale Garner, assured us that this could be “negotiated”, his word has not held true thus far. I ask you, how can this happen in America?



We have done everything in our power to raise healthy animals and avoid this type of finding, if this can happen to us, it can happen to you. I have not been informed yet, what NADeFA's plan is in providing assistance to producers who are left to spend the necessary astronomical amounts of money to protect our property from the state and federal governments with the loss of federal indemnity. The outcome of our "situation" will have a direct impact on the industry nation-wide. How far are you willing to go to protect your property, your livelihood and finally your industry?



My deepest regards to all,



Rhonda Brakke

[email protected]



Update: September 13, 2012



Six weeks following our original request, we received notification from APHIS, that the Ames Laboratory is now willing to release DNA sample of positive buck to DNA Solutions. This buck is pedigreed through DNA solutions and currently DNA on file for comparison. We are very thankful for this release, no matter the results, we will rest easier knowing the test is definitive. As of September 27, 2012, we still have not received this verification.



Because of the length of this informative article, it had to be posted over two different posts. Please read the rest in the following post.

Update: September 18, 2012,



All Deer Farmers and Livestock Producers:



While, we wished to have better news following our meeting with the Iowa Ag Department today, we do not. The meeting was scheduled to discuss a herd plan for our 500+ head at our breeding facility. Currently, the 200 head of animals are being destroyed WITHOUT indemnification at our hunting preserve, although the IDNR is allowing us to hunt the approximate 20 mature bucks through December 31, 2012, and purchase animals from other breeders in the state of Iowa to fullfil the remainder of our hunts. Friday, September 7, one day prior to the date of which our first group of hunters arrived, Tom and I signed an agreement with IDNR to hunt and eradicate the herd at the hunting preserve, with the understanding that the DNR would work with IDALS to accept our deer from our breeding facility. Currently, we have purchased a refrigerated truck to store full carcasses in until CWD test results are received and we have agreed to pay for disposal of all animals to an area landfill, as well as, be responsible for all expenses incurred for CWD testing. Currently we are in the process of installing electric 3-D fence around the 400 acre hunting preserve. Given those facts, we have been in full cooperation with the Iowa Department of Natural Resources and the Iowa Department of Ag.



On September 18, 2012, we met with the Ag Department to discuss a herd plan, however, they offered no herd plan and asked us what we would like to see happen. We told them that our request to haul our bucks from our breeding facility to the hunting ranch still stood. Everyone wins, tax payers and Brakke's alike. The Ag Dept felt that because the hunting preserve is under IDNR's jurisdiction that this is not an option. We then offered canceling our preserve license and placing jurisdiction under the Ag Department as a Depopulation site, again not an option. The Director to the Ag Department, said this change would never hold up, as we would be offering the same service just changing departmental jurisdiction.



However, he then entertained the idea to have our hunters shoot our animals in their confined pens at our breeding site. I cannot express the outrage Tom and I felt by such an "idea". This is what our industry has been working against since day one. We do not hunt animals in confined pens, but rather hunting preserves where they have the opportunity to "flight" on property that is 80% timbered and extremely rugged terrain making it possible for animals to survive a number of years BEFORE being harvested by a hunter.



Discussion was never held regarding our deer in Mason City East Park. We have a small herd in the park for people to enjoy. We have supplied the park with feed and medications for these animals. I feel confident that the citizen's of Mason City and surrounding communities would be outraged to have our deer in East Park slaughtered in their "confined" pen as their children and grandchildren stand by. Ultimately these animals will have to be destroyed, as there will be no place for them to go given the CWD finding with our herd. As you livestock producers understand, the fawns must be weaned and the young bucks removed or there will be a blood bath come this November breeding season between the young bucks and the mature buck. Not real suitable for the young people who visit the deer regularly.



Tom and I have cooperated with the IDNR and the Department of Ag since the finding. We have destroyed those animals which were in the pen with the positive buck. Two of those does being my bottle fed pets. We are in the process of putting electric fence up around the 330 acres at our hunting facility, as requested by the DNR; and still rather than finding a resolution for all parties, it is our strong belief and that of our legal counsel, they are going to leave us quarantined for a minimum of 5 year period with no opportunity to move animals. Section (1.3) Quarantine from the Chronic Wasting Disease Program Standards is shared as follows: CWD-positive or exposed herds are to be issued quarantines or hold order by the State animal health official. Exposed animals in a positive or trace herd must remain on the premises unless a State or Federal permit for movement (such as VS Form 1-27) to a depopulation site or to a research facility has been obtained."



Discussion was held and direct quotes shared from APHIS and Department of Agriculture "CWD Rules and Regulations" dated June 13, 2012, including but not limited to "we (APHIS) agree the lack of a live-animal test for CWD creates uncertainty. The objective of our regulations is now to assist in controlling CWD in Farmed and captive cervids, rather than eliminating CWD in farmed and captive cervids. Eliminating CWD from farmed and captive cervids is not practical given the persistence of CWD in wild cervid populations and our current lack of knowledge about how CWD may be transmitted between wild cervid populations and farmed and captive cervids. Other gaps in our scientific knowledge we have about CWD also impair our ability to achieve eradication, including the lack of certainty regarding the disease status of individual live animals, the lack of knowledge regarding how the disease is transmitted between wild and farmed or captive cervid populations. While, as noted, our scientific knowledge about CWD is limited, the scientific knowledge we have suggests that CWD is not highly infectious. In general, the movement of animals through a State without unloading poses a low risk of spreading CWD, and the regulations in part 81 ensure the animals moved interstate will themselves present a low risk of being infected with CWD." These comments were met with simple disregard.



It was also discussed that Minnesota Department of Ag held a meeting with their producers yesterday and it was communicated that MN would no longer require lymph node submissions for testing because there have been too many false positives with lymph nodes, AND if MN breeders were to find a positive CWD case in their herds, that the MN Department of Ag would be willing to allow the exposed animals to be transported to a hunting preserve that was willing to take them. Further stating that this would be granted as to not bring unnecessary hardship to the producers or tax payers, as there is no federal indemnity for CWD. Again no comment from the IA Department of Ag to work toward such a goal. Currently there are hunting preserves in Colorado and Missouri that are hunting animals CWD infected and exposed.



Further discussion was held that we would be quarantined for five years from the date the last positive was found. If another positive shows up during that five year period, you start back at square one. Again, keep us feeding and quarantined WITHOUT indemnification. There must be some law or constitution right to protect us from this happening?



To sum it up, we informed the IA Ag Department we had received a "certified herd appraisal" in the amount of 1.2 million, given the pedigrees of our animals and hard work and dedication, and monies invested in our genetics and animal herd health. We will continue to feed our animals and we have drawn our line in the sand. We will continue to maintain our 1.5 million dollar investment we have in our lodge (built new in 2011), land, and surrounding fence. I only hope the rest of your are able to hold up your end, if you should be faced with a seemingly rare "spontaneous" CWD finding in a herd CWD certified and "closed" for 10 years.



I understand there is current legislation for the cattle industry to ID their animals for traceability, it is my hope that the state cattleman associations can learn from our industry's treatment with complacency. Ten years ago, we agreed to the state's "voluntary" program (USDA made "requirement" to move animals interstate) with animal ID requirements and traceability. Look where that has gotten our industry, an eradication program to put us out of business WITHOUT compensation, no thanks to our state and federal government.



Our best regards to all,



Tom and Rhonda Brakke

The Brakke situation should scare the crap out of all deer and elk producers. It's one thing to lose one animal when tested positive but to lose them all without indemnification is absurd. This industry has to unite against this CWD government theft and method of industry distruction and a suit should be brought by the industry against these government agencies. If this CWD testing is so important to save the world from CWD there should be money alloted to help the producer when one tests positive. My understanding is cattle people would just have to have the family line killed and tested and they are back in business. None of this quarinteed for five years or more.

If NADEFA will defend this producer and bring suit against this stupid CWD program I'll help with a two hundred dollar donation. Best I can do for now as I make no money from deer. If every producer would donate it would be to our advantage to get this situation under control before you end up with this problem on your door step. I'm very sorry to hear of your problems Tom and Rhonda and hope this industry stands behind you.

Barry, What is the current testing requirements in IA for both breeding and hunting preserves? Here in SD we used to have to test everything, breeding facilities and preserves but we recently got it passed that it's all voluntary. Obviously if you would ever want to ship out of state you have to keep up on the testing requirements but for the preserves and the meat producers that are not, its a huge step in the right direction.



Cody Warne

your right Jack.....we are not small potatoes any more by any means....we need to stArt shaking our mighty fist just like the beef industry did as well as others!! It 's time! nOW!

This was in the weekend addition of the Rochester Post bulletin. 9/29/12



Wow!! Telling it like it is about the DNR's deer hunting industry!



This is good ammo for us to promote high fenced preserves. We are not a negative economic impact, like the DNR's wild deer are.



We don't have car accidents, we pay our own feed bills, we are not taxpayer subsidized, and our hunters pay the true cost of hunting deer.



Is that the problem with the Deer Hunters Assn., and the DNR? They do not want the taxpayer to know that hunters are subsidized by the taxpayer? Are they scared that our industry will expose a big scam on taxpayers?



Talk about socialism. Where is there more socialism than what the DNR is, and is trying to do.





Gary Olson









Outdoors



Nature Nut: Deadliest animal in the country? Bambi!



Posted: Sep 28, 2012, 11:05 pm





Did you know



• Minnesota deer accident data from 1994 to 2004 clearly shows a direct correlation between deer population numbers and human fatalities or injuries in deer-vehicle collisions.



• Studies have shown that if you reduce deer density it reduces tick abundance and Lyme disease.



It is well known that many people have fear of wild animals such as snakes, spiders, sharks, bats, mountain lions, bears and mosquitoes. However, it might be surprising to hear the deadliest animal in the United States, other than humans, is clearly the white-tailed deer.



Across the U.S., there are more than a million car accidents with deer each year. More than 200 Americans are killed and more than 10,000 injured in these accidents.



Deer are responsible for many billions in vehicle damage and additional billions lost to crop and landscaping damage. Without even trying to put a value on the human suffering and lives lost, deer are probably responsible for 10s of billions in damage across the country each year.



Interestingly, deer were not always the problem they are today. I was once shown an article someone kept from a 1940s Wabasha County newspaper with headlines stating "One Whitetail Deer spotted in Wabasha County."



Even before settlers or Native Americans took up residence in the U.S., there undoubtedly were never as many deer around as there are today.

It would be hard to pinpoint exactly how deer numbers have increased exponentially since those rare sightings in the '40’s.



However, we do know they have for many decades been managed at these ‘unnaturally’ high levels by state agencies responsible for natural resources. In Minnesota, as in many states, this would be the Department of Natural Resources.

While many of us do enjoy seeing these graceful animals that can effortlessly leap 20 feet or jump a 6-foot fence, the management efforts have been done mostly for the benefit of the approximately one in 30 people across the country (one in 10 in Minnesota) who hunt deer.



One will often read statistics touting the millions of dollars of benefit deer hunting has in a particular state, including Minnesota. Rarely is this number compared with the much higher billions in destructive costs mentioned above.

On a trip back from Minneapolis earlier this summer, my wife and I almost became a deer collision statistic when a deer decided to cross Highway 52 in the middle of the day.



I awaited the worst as it strained every muscle in its body to get across our lane. Fortunately for us and the deer, it realized its possible fate and appeared extremely motivated to avoid a collision.



Last year a family traveling across Indiana in a mini-van was not so lucky when they hit a deer and then were hit by a following semi-truck, causing death for seven passengers.

High numbers of deer virtually guarantee future human fatalities, suffering and destruction. Unnaturally high numbers also contribute to health issues. Lyme disease and chronic wasting disease are the most notable directly related to high deer numbers.

Perhaps it is time to ask why we would manage for unnatural numbers of any animal, whether it is whitetail deer, Canada geese or turkeys. Doing so benefits only a small percentage of the population, while being detrimental to most people and the balance of natural ecosystems.

educe deer density it reduces tick abundance and Lyme disease.

Greg Munson is a volunteer naturalist and freelance writer. If you have questions, comments or column topic ideas email Greg at [email protected]

Good stuff Gary; I don't know where you find all of these articles but keep-em coming.



Jack, I personally appreciate the $200 offer and I hope NADeFA will take this up and take you up on your offer. I fear if they don't we may be sunk as an industry. Just my opinion.



Cody, I think Iowa is similar to what you are describing in SD. We have a voluntary program but if you are not in the program I don't think you can move deer anywhere. I'm not sure if you have to be in the program to move to an in-state preserve or not, but I'm thinking so.

I think preserves have to test 100% of the hunter killed whitetails. Breeders have to test everything over 16mo, soon to go to 12 months. Yep, getting worse since they took the funding away. Go figure!

Gary,

I seem to remember a Greg Munson from a anti high fence web site when they were trying to get rid of the high fence operations in North Dakota. If this is the same man he would not do our industry any justice. Please check into this as we wouldn't want to help him in any way. I had many posts on that site and he was polite but not our friend.

I'm sure he is not our friend, but he is making interesting statements about the DNR's management of the wild deer herd. He does give us some good talking points why preserves make economic sense.

About the diseases we see popping up in deer:

When my father was alive, he talked about seeing his first deer back in the late 1930's. I wonder if anyone has done any research on why there was no deer in S.E.Minnesota and Iowa back in the early 1900's. Were they hunted to extinction by the settlers? Did EHD or CWD wipe out the deer back then? Back then they wouldn't have known how to diagnosed these diseases. Is history repeating itself? Nature tends to recycle. Is the overpopulation of the wild herd bringing these diseases to the top? We see it happen all the time, whether its insects or raccoons. Nature kicks in and corrects itself.

In the livestock industry, back in the 1970's, we started concentrating animals in confined facilities, and we started to have health issues. We worked through it with vaccines. Is the deer industry going through the same growing pains?

Barry,

My opinion is close to the same as yours. This industry should be all over this abuse of power. Yet most industry people don't seem to want to be involved because it's not on their doorstep and just keep thinking everything will be ok. Well it's not ok, I've watched it go from bad to worse over thirty years and it keeps getting worse. We are loosing our industry and way of life and our own industry people will not stand united. When we can't be in business any longer we have no one to blame but our own industry people. Just look at the posts only three people are upset by this mans loss.

I mentioned my domestic sheep issue with the MT DNR and their abuse of power in another post. They have written their opinion that I should slaughter all my sheep as soon as possable because they might jump my fence and breed with the wild bighorns. This is absurd because they can't get out of a 40 inch jug when we lamb them but they can now jump an eight foot fence says the DNR. These sheep were legally shipped in as domestic sheep under the Dept of Livestock two years ago. The DNR can come up with the most crazy opinions and present them as facts and other proups believe what they say. If my DOL doesn't stand their ground that these sheep are domestic and under their control I will take them to court for my loss.

I will match you Jack and contribute $200 dollars of NaDEFA will take up this case. I think all deer farmers should do the same thing. I would also take it a step further to say that NaDEFA should setup a litigation fund to fight this very type of thing for the farmers and we should as farmers contibute atleast $200 per year to the fund. We need to build a war chest. I believe NaDEFA would fight our cases if they had the funds. We can not blame them if they can not afford to fight.

We should approach NaDEFA with this idea and see if the deer farmers will raise the funds to fight this case. In the future you should have to contribute to this fund to expect them to fight for you.

This is a precedent setting case - what happens here affects us all. We are all only one CWD test away from being put out of business. In Colorado and Wyoming there is CWd all over the place in the wild and they can't do anything about it. They close an area for a while and then reopen it to hunting - it is just a routine thing not a big deal. So why is it a big deal for us to have a positive? Our deer are confined not running all over the place. As we all know CWd has little effect on the wild herd and the only effect on farmed deer is because of government policy - not disease. If the government doesn't think it is important enough to spend any money on via testing, why should anyone think it is important?

not the same Munson guy,

That 200 dollar deal might be the best idea I've heard maybe it would get somebody off their can...................... Maybe time to cut the bull and put up.............