Has anybody used these guys for insurance on their deer or farm http://nationaldeerinsurance.com/index.html
Deer Insurance
- Thread starter daywoodwhitetails
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Joined Apr 2009
2,617 Posts | 0+
Edgar, WI
I have no comment on that insurance company, but I would from personal experience say save your money and don't insure your deer. I found it to be a total waste of money and would never do it again.
Roger
Could you explain why it's not worth it? Did they not pay what the animal was insured for? I only have a few of mine insured and it doesn't cost that much. But if I was to insure the whole herd it probably wouldnt be worth it. I haven't had a claim so far and hope I don't.
Could you explain why it's not worth it? Did they not pay what the animal was insured for? I only have a few of mine insured and it doesn't cost that much. But if I was to insure the whole herd it probably wouldnt be worth it. I haven't had a claim so far and hope I don't.
I didn't see anywhere in their site that they insured your animals. Looks like they cover your liability and assets related to deer farming. I did not contact them, just reviewed their site.
Joined Apr 2009
2,617 Posts | 0+
Edgar, WI
ER Whitetails said:
I did in fact have 1 claim for a doe that was insured but was being housed at another location. They did "honor" the loss of the animal however it cost them nothing. Her appraised and therefore insured value was below the cost of the deductible. Therefore her loss was applied to the deductible and had I lost another animal I would have then received some compensation. So I got nothing for losing her.
The insurance I had was what I would call a full coverage insurance. About the only thing it didn't cover was a loss due to CWD. ( LOL!!! Like that ever happens! ) It did cover vandalism, dog attacks, illness, darting mishaps, and much more.
It was very expensive. It required that the entire herd be insured. It required that the entire herd be DNA'ed. The deductible was essentially set up in such a way that only 50% of the animals were above the deductible and 50% were below the deductible. Had I lost the valuable animals it would have paid to have the insurance. Initially I got the insurance because I was concerned about the risks that we all are concerned with while raising deer. Then the second year I had it I continued the insurance to protect the investors who had invested in animals I sold them all or part of that were still under my care. (I felt this was just good business to protect those who trusted and believed in my genetics)
I don't recall the dollars involved but it was something along the lines of $25,000 to $30,000 per year to insure the entire herd which was maybe about 15 head. At that time I owned or co-owned Updraft and Downdraft and they of course had the highest value. Then a handful of does had high value. And then a handful of does and bucks with what I called "shooter" value made up the animals who's value was below the deductible.
I can see how those who carry an insurance that covers less might say I was over insuring and the high cost was my fault. This might be true, however I also wonder how easy making a claim on some of the lesser costly insurances would be if they have lots of loopholes to use to get out of paying for a death.
I don't claim to be an expert on this stuff. Just that in my opinion insuring deer is a waste of money. I feel the best insurance is a well installed double fence, keeping good vigilance, and a well sighted in rifle. Oh and maybe letting the neighbors know I can be a little "unstable" at times came in handy also
Good luck everyone!
R
Kinda off topic but this came up in another post and my research found that the Ohio farm bureau uses Nationwide Agri coverage.. gonna get a quote an check them out
IndependenceRanch724611357100326
I did in fact have 1 claim for a doe that was insured but was being housed at another location. They did "honor" the loss of the animal however it cost them nothing. Her appraised and therefore insured value was below the cost of the deductible. Therefore her loss was applied to the deductible and had I lost another animal I would have then received some compensation. So I got nothing for losing her.
The insurance I had was what I would call a full coverage insurance. About the only thing it didn't cover was a loss due to CWD. ( LOL!!! Like that ever happens! ) It did cover vandalism, dog attacks, illness, darting mishaps, and much more.
It was very expensive. It required that the entire herd be insured. It required that the entire herd be DNA'ed. The deductible was essentially set up in such a way that only 50% of the animals were above the deductible and 50% were below the deductible. Had I lost the valuable animals it would have paid to have the insurance. Initially I got the insurance because I was concerned about the risks that we all are concerned with while raising deer. Then the second year I had it I continued the insurance to protect the investors who had invested in animals I sold them all or part of that were still under my care. (I felt this was just good business to protect those who trusted and believed in my genetics)
I don't recall the dollars involved but it was something along the lines of $25,000 to $30,000 per year to insure the entire herd which was maybe about 15 head. At that time I owned or co-owned Updraft and Downdraft and they of course had the highest value. Then a handful of does had high value. And then a handful of does and bucks with what I called "shooter" value made up the animals who's value was below the deductible.
I can see how those who carry an insurance that covers less might say I was over insuring and the high cost was my fault. This might be true, however I also wonder how easy making a claim on some of the lesser costly insurances would be if they have lots of loopholes to use to get out of paying for a death.
I don't claim to be an expert on this stuff. Just that in my opinion insuring deer is a waste of money. I feel the best insurance is a well installed double fence, keeping good vigilance, and a well sighted in rifle. Oh and maybe letting the neighbors know I can be a little "unstable" at times came in handy also
Good luck everyone!
R
Hi Roger,
I enjoyed reading your post. Thank you for that information. My colleagues and I recently formed a new insurance business called Archangel Specialty. Archangel's first product is designed to provide animal mortality coverage to breeders of whitetail deer, elk, and other cervid species. I'd like to explain how our coverage may be different from insurance companies you've worked with in the past. Hopefully we'll be able to change your mind on the value of this product.
First of all, our policies cover the animal if it dies as a result of disease (pneumonia, gastrointestinal, cancer, etc.), parasite, bacterial infection, anesthesia, accidental trauma, or if it is stolen. We also cover the animal if it dies while being hauled somewhere. We do exclude coverage for "government slaughter diseases" and malicious injury for obvious reasons. Ok, so how are we different...
Unlike, the policy you described, we do not require you to insure your entire herd. In fact, we underwrite each animal individually. This saves ranchers money as they only need to insure "key animals". Generally our customers only want coverage on a few very high-dollar breeder bucks or pedigreed does. There is also no deductible on our coverage since it is mortality only. If the animal dies from a covered cause of loss, the claim will be paid in full.
Last week we launched this new product in the State of Wisconsin. (If I'm not mistaken we sent Independence Ranch a flyer) We will be rolling it out in Texas, Pennsylvania, Minnesota, and Ohio over the course of the next month. If successful, we will expand into additional states such as Indiana, Illinois, Missouri, Michigan, Iowa, Alabama, etc.
We created this new product because our underwriter, while with her previous company, had received a lot of feedback from breeders such as yourself that felt that the marketplace was not offering adequate coverage for common causes of death. After a thorough research process, we believe we have developed the right policy and pricing that will allow us to serve the deer breeding industry for years to come. If you would like to learn about the coverage we offer, please feel welcome to visit our website http://archangelspecialty.com/programs/wildlife-breeders/ or call our toll free number: 1-800-575-9628. If you ask for information on the "Wildlife Breeders" program you will be transferred to our underwriter. I would also be more than happy to answer your questions on this forum.
Thank you,
Chris Whiddon
I did in fact have 1 claim for a doe that was insured but was being housed at another location. They did "honor" the loss of the animal however it cost them nothing. Her appraised and therefore insured value was below the cost of the deductible. Therefore her loss was applied to the deductible and had I lost another animal I would have then received some compensation. So I got nothing for losing her.
The insurance I had was what I would call a full coverage insurance. About the only thing it didn't cover was a loss due to CWD. ( LOL!!! Like that ever happens! ) It did cover vandalism, dog attacks, illness, darting mishaps, and much more.
It was very expensive. It required that the entire herd be insured. It required that the entire herd be DNA'ed. The deductible was essentially set up in such a way that only 50% of the animals were above the deductible and 50% were below the deductible. Had I lost the valuable animals it would have paid to have the insurance. Initially I got the insurance because I was concerned about the risks that we all are concerned with while raising deer. Then the second year I had it I continued the insurance to protect the investors who had invested in animals I sold them all or part of that were still under my care. (I felt this was just good business to protect those who trusted and believed in my genetics)
I don't recall the dollars involved but it was something along the lines of $25,000 to $30,000 per year to insure the entire herd which was maybe about 15 head. At that time I owned or co-owned Updraft and Downdraft and they of course had the highest value. Then a handful of does had high value. And then a handful of does and bucks with what I called "shooter" value made up the animals who's value was below the deductible.
I can see how those who carry an insurance that covers less might say I was over insuring and the high cost was my fault. This might be true, however I also wonder how easy making a claim on some of the lesser costly insurances would be if they have lots of loopholes to use to get out of paying for a death.
I don't claim to be an expert on this stuff. Just that in my opinion insuring deer is a waste of money. I feel the best insurance is a well installed double fence, keeping good vigilance, and a well sighted in rifle. Oh and maybe letting the neighbors know I can be a little "unstable" at times came in handy also
Good luck everyone!
R
Hi Roger,
I enjoyed reading your post. Thank you for that information. My colleagues and I recently formed a new insurance business called Archangel Specialty. Archangel's first product is designed to provide animal mortality coverage to breeders of whitetail deer, elk, and other cervid species. I'd like to explain how our coverage may be different from insurance companies you've worked with in the past. Hopefully we'll be able to change your mind on the value of this product.
First of all, our policies cover the animal if it dies as a result of disease (pneumonia, gastrointestinal, cancer, etc.), parasite, bacterial infection, anesthesia, accidental trauma, or if it is stolen. We also cover the animal if it dies while being hauled somewhere. We do exclude coverage for "government slaughter diseases" and malicious injury for obvious reasons. Ok, so how are we different...
Unlike, the policy you described, we do not require you to insure your entire herd. In fact, we underwrite each animal individually. This saves ranchers money as they only need to insure "key animals". Generally our customers only want coverage on a few very high-dollar breeder bucks or pedigreed does. There is also no deductible on our coverage since it is mortality only. If the animal dies from a covered cause of loss, the claim will be paid in full.
Last week we launched this new product in the State of Wisconsin. (If I'm not mistaken we sent Independence Ranch a flyer) We will be rolling it out in Texas, Pennsylvania, Minnesota, and Ohio over the course of the next month. If successful, we will expand into additional states such as Indiana, Illinois, Missouri, Michigan, Iowa, Alabama, etc.
We created this new product because our underwriter, while with her previous company, had received a lot of feedback from breeders such as yourself that felt that the marketplace was not offering adequate coverage for common causes of death. After a thorough research process, we believe we have developed the right policy and pricing that will allow us to serve the deer breeding industry for years to come. If you would like to learn about the coverage we offer, please feel welcome to visit our website http://archangelspecialty.com/programs/wildlife-breeders/ or call our toll free number: 1-800-575-9628. If you ask for information on the "Wildlife Breeders" program you will be transferred to our underwriter. I would also be more than happy to answer your questions on this forum.
Thank you,
Chris Whiddon
sdbigbucks902911391875870
Chris, Does your insurance cover EHD death?
Thanks
Cody
Cody,
That's a terrific question, and I'm sure it is on a lot of other farmers' minds, so I appreciate you asking it. I will give both a short answer and a painfully long answer. First the short answer...
In addition to malicious or willful injury, our current policy excludes three diseases: CWD, EHD, and "blue tongue". However, we know from our limited experience in the cervid insurance business that there is demand for coverage against these particular diseases, so we are already giving serious consideration to developing an optional coverage endorsement for the aforementioned exclusions. This optional endorsement would probably be made available only to our most loyal customers (i.e. those who have insured their deer/elk with us for the "standard" causes of death for at least a year or two).
Ok, so now the long-winded response for those of you masochists who want more of an insurance lesson. Let me begin by providing a bit of background on Archangel Specialty since we're a new name in your community (which by the way has given us a very warm welcome, so thank you for that). The majority of my personal career has been spent as a mergers & acquisitions advisor to the insurance industry. As such, I was fortunate enough to work with hundreds of different insurance companies and learn how they operate. One thing that stood out to me, and will come as no surprise to you, is that certain niche industries in this country are rather neglected by the State Farms, Nationwides, and Farm Bureaus of the world because of their focus on the masses. That's not to say that they aren't quality companies, because they are, but as I'm sure some of you know from experience, often times their agents have no choice but to try to fit a square peg into a round hole. If for example you were to walk into "John Smith's Farm Bureau Agency" and tell him that you have 10 deer you would like to insure, he would probably hand you the same policy that he presents to cattle farmers for their livestock. He's certainly not going to understand why a deer named "Kid Rock" or "Energizer" is worth as much a thoroughbred racehorse. My goal when I founded Archangel was to identify underserved industries and develop custom insurance solutions based on the true needs of the customer and supported by extensive research. That is why our company tagline is "Crafters of Tailored Insurance Solutions". As someone who grew up in the Appalachian foothills, and has a passion for the outdoors, when I heard about the deer farming industry I knew this is where I wanted to launch our business.
So how does this play into your question regarding EHD? Well, when we began developing this new product, which is essentially life insurance for deer, one thing we quickly came to realize is that, unlike the human life insurance industry, there aren't piles of actu data on life expectancy, causes of death, etc. for captive populations of deer and elk. In my opinion, this is why it has been such a challenge for deer farmers to find quality coverage for their animals. The insurance industry doesn't know how to price the coverage, so they either undercharge and the losses drive them away, or they overcharge and are unable to generate enough demand to make the commitment of resources worthwhile. Archangel wanted to have longevity in this industry, so we knew we were going to have to blaze some new trails and become thought leaders on captive cervid mortality. The first thing we asked ourselves was, "what is killing these captively bred animals, and at what rate?". To answer that question we had numerous conversations with industry participants (special thanks here to Will Ainsworth of Dream Ranch, Billy Sage of S&S Whitetails Galore, Jerry & Teresa Johnston of Johnston Whitetails, and Shawn Schafer of NADeFA) as well with the animal science departments of several universities. What we found was that causes of death for captive populations of deer and elk typically fall into two buckets: "standard" and "catastrophic". So what does that mean? Well, "standard" causes of death (i.e. pneumonia, parasite, accidental trauma, and other types of loss that we cover) are more predictable. For example, based on our research, we feel like we have a pretty good idea that a two year old deer has an X% chance of dying from pneumonia in a given year and a eight year old animal has a Y% chance of dying from the same cause in a given year. With those probabilities known, we are able to generate mortality tables and ratings engines to come up with the appropriate amount to charge based on the animal's age, location, and a host of other factors. Is our data perfect? Not yet, but the longer we are in this game, the better it is going to get. That is why we chose to exclude "catastrophic" perils such as EHD and CWD from our coverage. These types of high severity losses could "break our model" and force us out of the cervid mortality insurance business. That is not good for you or us.
Think of it this way.... if you're Progressive or Esurance selling car insurance in New York and New Jersey, you know that on any given day you're going to have a certain number of losses. On a sunny day let's say there are 10,000 vehicle accidents and on a rainy day there are 20,000. Based on this information, Progressive and Esurance have a pretty good idea of how much their insurance should cost. What they have a much harder time predicting is when a Hurricane Sandy is going to come through and total a million vehicles. EHD works a lot in the same way. Outbreaks are unpredictable and generally affect a large portion of the herd. Until we have some more time to gather data and build a large, geographically-diverse risk pool, we are intentionally staying away from it. Pricing it into our coverage at this time, without knowing the true probability of the risk, would make our product cost prohibitive for you and your fellow farmers. That said, we are very much aware of the demand for this particular coverage and hope to offer an endorsement of some sort to our preferred customers in a year or two.
Thanks again for the excellent question.
Chris Whiddon
Chris, Does your insurance cover EHD death?
Thanks
Cody
Cody,
That's a terrific question, and I'm sure it is on a lot of other farmers' minds, so I appreciate you asking it. I will give both a short answer and a painfully long answer. First the short answer...
In addition to malicious or willful injury, our current policy excludes three diseases: CWD, EHD, and "blue tongue". However, we know from our limited experience in the cervid insurance business that there is demand for coverage against these particular diseases, so we are already giving serious consideration to developing an optional coverage endorsement for the aforementioned exclusions. This optional endorsement would probably be made available only to our most loyal customers (i.e. those who have insured their deer/elk with us for the "standard" causes of death for at least a year or two).
Ok, so now the long-winded response for those of you masochists who want more of an insurance lesson. Let me begin by providing a bit of background on Archangel Specialty since we're a new name in your community (which by the way has given us a very warm welcome, so thank you for that). The majority of my personal career has been spent as a mergers & acquisitions advisor to the insurance industry. As such, I was fortunate enough to work with hundreds of different insurance companies and learn how they operate. One thing that stood out to me, and will come as no surprise to you, is that certain niche industries in this country are rather neglected by the State Farms, Nationwides, and Farm Bureaus of the world because of their focus on the masses. That's not to say that they aren't quality companies, because they are, but as I'm sure some of you know from experience, often times their agents have no choice but to try to fit a square peg into a round hole. If for example you were to walk into "John Smith's Farm Bureau Agency" and tell him that you have 10 deer you would like to insure, he would probably hand you the same policy that he presents to cattle farmers for their livestock. He's certainly not going to understand why a deer named "Kid Rock" or "Energizer" is worth as much a thoroughbred racehorse. My goal when I founded Archangel was to identify underserved industries and develop custom insurance solutions based on the true needs of the customer and supported by extensive research. That is why our company tagline is "Crafters of Tailored Insurance Solutions". As someone who grew up in the Appalachian foothills, and has a passion for the outdoors, when I heard about the deer farming industry I knew this is where I wanted to launch our business.
So how does this play into your question regarding EHD? Well, when we began developing this new product, which is essentially life insurance for deer, one thing we quickly came to realize is that, unlike the human life insurance industry, there aren't piles of actu data on life expectancy, causes of death, etc. for captive populations of deer and elk. In my opinion, this is why it has been such a challenge for deer farmers to find quality coverage for their animals. The insurance industry doesn't know how to price the coverage, so they either undercharge and the losses drive them away, or they overcharge and are unable to generate enough demand to make the commitment of resources worthwhile. Archangel wanted to have longevity in this industry, so we knew we were going to have to blaze some new trails and become thought leaders on captive cervid mortality. The first thing we asked ourselves was, "what is killing these captively bred animals, and at what rate?". To answer that question we had numerous conversations with industry participants (special thanks here to Will Ainsworth of Dream Ranch, Billy Sage of S&S Whitetails Galore, Jerry & Teresa Johnston of Johnston Whitetails, and Shawn Schafer of NADeFA) as well with the animal science departments of several universities. What we found was that causes of death for captive populations of deer and elk typically fall into two buckets: "standard" and "catastrophic". So what does that mean? Well, "standard" causes of death (i.e. pneumonia, parasite, accidental trauma, and other types of loss that we cover) are more predictable. For example, based on our research, we feel like we have a pretty good idea that a two year old deer has an X% chance of dying from pneumonia in a given year and a eight year old animal has a Y% chance of dying from the same cause in a given year. With those probabilities known, we are able to generate mortality tables and ratings engines to come up with the appropriate amount to charge based on the animal's age, location, and a host of other factors. Is our data perfect? Not yet, but the longer we are in this game, the better it is going to get. That is why we chose to exclude "catastrophic" perils such as EHD and CWD from our coverage. These types of high severity losses could "break our model" and force us out of the cervid mortality insurance business. That is not good for you or us.
Think of it this way.... if you're Progressive or Esurance selling car insurance in New York and New Jersey, you know that on any given day you're going to have a certain number of losses. On a sunny day let's say there are 10,000 vehicle accidents and on a rainy day there are 20,000. Based on this information, Progressive and Esurance have a pretty good idea of how much their insurance should cost. What they have a much harder time predicting is when a Hurricane Sandy is going to come through and total a million vehicles. EHD works a lot in the same way. Outbreaks are unpredictable and generally affect a large portion of the herd. Until we have some more time to gather data and build a large, geographically-diverse risk pool, we are intentionally staying away from it. Pricing it into our coverage at this time, without knowing the true probability of the risk, would make our product cost prohibitive for you and your fellow farmers. That said, we are very much aware of the demand for this particular coverage and hope to offer an endorsement of some sort to our preferred customers in a year or two.
Thanks again for the excellent question.
Chris Whiddon
Thanks Chris! I appreciate you taking the time to answer and explain. Insurance is like every other business, it has to cash flow or it won't stay in business, uh, unless your the federal gov't....
Cody
Cody
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