scoring deer

Ok Ive got to ask(if there's a good way to ask this) but whats up with all the big breeder bucks and there scores,how can someone actually advertise there deer at 350 for example and no in there head that it wouldn't even score 280 .i loved don higgins answer on a forum when asked what mosses would score his answer was some would score him at over 300 but i will hand you the tape and let u score him and you will prob get closer to 270,now y cant everyone be that honest,not tryn to start anyth just wondering were the honest breeders are?

This has been going on for years the only way to stop it is not to buy from those breeders that over score there deer its all about greed. I also get fired up when I see a breeder advertize B&C scores and call them offical scores or offical B&C world records because it CAN NOT BE AN OFFICAL SCORE because B&C DOES NOT allow pen raised deer in thier books.

So when you see a so called offical world record B&C score or any offical B&C score it is FALSE advertizement and those breeders get a check mark by thier name as well.



What is sad about the whole thing is a lot of the breeders doing this are some of the top 20 or 30 breeder and they don't need to make false statements or over score thier deer but they do anyway.



OK I am done venting for now.

Back In the day... SCI wasn't used much.

I think...When (SOME) say Official B&C it means...

A Certified B&C scored it...It can't go in the Record book 1.because it is not dead... And 2. because it is behind fence.

SCI it can still be alive and behind fence.

But it doesn't mean it is not an official score. Is How I feel...

By the way since this subject was brought up when did Rolex start scoreing 433 sci as advertised on the back of 2010 Oklahoma sale book. Earlier this year he was advertised at 423+ in the 2010 Midwestselect catolog . Just wandering cause I thought official scores had to be done on antlers that were dried with no velvet. Unless he shed really early this year I don't see how he could already have a new official score. Can someone please explain I'm confused. The reason I ask this on a public forum is so we all can understand and nobody is confused or misled.

Maybe at the sales everyone needs to leave a tape and detaled score card beside thier antler displays so people can see for themselves. I think this would prompt a more honest score.

I know some will say it doesn't matter but, yes it does it shows what kinda you really are and the kind of people you are dealing with. To me honesty is the key to a good long lasting relationship and it shows the kinda person you really are. Some will do what ever it takes to make a buck or to be on top.

Virgil,

To answer your first question with SCI you can score a buck in velvet but to be an officail score the antlers would be given a deduction (I would need to look in my SCI hand book but I believe it is a 3% deduction)



As far as score being important they are and the do matter for the reasons you stated above (It tells you how honest the person you are dealing with is) I had some fokes stop in to look at a few deer this past weekend and they were telling me about a farm they had been to to look at some yearling bucks these guys were told the bucks scored 140" when the fact was the bucks were lucky to score 100" thats just greed at its best.

So with a three percent dedudtion this would put Sudden impact at 477 Bam Bam at 435. So these guys are still the industries current leading scorers. Give do respect were due respect is needed. Watch out though cause Free Agent is soon to be at the top. Wouldn't he be a fun one to score.

Well that was kind of my point for asking my question seems to be some of the top breeders (most with money and now want all the fame and power ,lol)that do this and they don't need to because they have great deer but why lie about your deer scoring 40 inches more than it does just to make your self look better when your deer already make you looks good !!!!

Me personally I like this topic a lot! Glad you all brought it up. I will tell you that the days of using the excuse of not knowing how to score correctly, and it reflecting in their ads is past! It only hurts the farmer and his operation as it reflects them negatively . I recently seen an ad for about a 150" typical ten. To say I was proud of that individual was an understatement! Not because he was advertising a Buck that maybe was his best to date, but because he was dead on the money! I think because of all the non typical genes that exist it readily and frequently happens. I can excuse some, but others are not excused! If you don't know how big, always underestimate. I have a maxbo son out of Reno's full sister that I have advertised as "-----" @ 1 yr. I don't mind waiting for the chance to measure hard antler. Seasoned deerfarmers can get close just by looking at a glance! As always if you are at a sale and you come by my booth ill pull the head off the wall and hand you a tape! Jason DEER CREEK WHITETAILS

All yeah if you read that Waldvogel add I was referring to real close you will notice Rolex is listed at 441 first then listed as current SCI World record holder at 433+. This is all in the same add. Also I don't understand why he is also listed earlier this year at 423+. Curt if you are reading this please explain cause as a leader in the industry you should be setting a example for others to follow. To me this makes you look really bad not the kinda honest person people say you are. Maybe this was an honest mistake hope so but if not this kinda stuff needs to stop.

I want to clear up a couple of mistakes that were made regarding the 2 year old score of Updraft from last year. He was indeed scored by an official SCI scorer. That person came up with a score of 268 4/8" at age 2. That score is true and accurate to the best of my non-official scoring knowledge.

Where a couple of errors need to be cleared up was in the printing of some books put out this season. One booklet that had Updraft on the front cover showed his score at something like 292" or 295". This of course was in fact a mistake as like I said he scored 268 4/8" @ age 2 in 2009.

Another mistake I want to clear up was in another sale flyer sent out earlier this season his picture from last year was used. With that picture it said he was age 3 while in fact he was age 2 in 2009.

Mistakes can and do happen, and as in my case one mistake made the buck seem more impressive while the other mistake made him seem less impressive.

I have the score sheet from when Updraft was officially scored last fall and it was available for viewing at each and every show last season.

It is my intent to have Updraft again officially scored this season, and that score sheet will again be available for viewing at each show I attend.

I fully and 100% believe that good deer breeders will look at Updraft's antlers in person and trust in the scores provided to them. Pictures can be very hard at best to make a judgement from. I also believe that good deer breeders will see Updraft's score as being only a small part of his strength and power.

I don't make this post because I feel anyone is doubting my scores I advertise, but instead because it is important to me that my integrity not ever be in doubt. I make every effort to insure my investors are happy.

Looking forward to seeing everyone at the shows!

Rodger there's no doubt that your integrity is i tackt and i respect you for speaking up ,like you said mistakes happen but what im speaking of is those breeders who consistently score there deer wrong just to make there selves look better everyone nos what im talking about ,a 150in buck is a 150in buck you cant just say hes 190 and that's what he is just because you have a name .

Everyone knows the old saying...."Honesty is the best policy". These folks that consistently advertise there bucks scores at an inflated score will only tarnish their own image in time if they have not already. But we do have to be careful not to jump the gun on some of these scores as being mistakes. I will give you an example......I purchased RDM Hefty years ago as my first back-up breeder buck and last year decided I was going to sell him....so I listed him on WE for sale and i got a call questioning his score that was advertised........Whitetail Eschange will attach their whitetail quest information to your add when listing with them and somehow the information in Whitetail Quest (which i never listed him in) had him scoring in the 300's and yes this was absolutely the wrong score..........my point is .....here was a score that was wrong and i had nothing to do with the false inflated score......i also know the millers from whom a purchased Hefty from are one of the most honest farmers out their with their scores so i ahve know idea where this confusion came from........so we just need to be careful before we accuse someone of false advertising their animal.......however, all that being said, there are some out there that consistantly advertise their animals with false scores and they are and will be noticed and their integrity will be in question.

Roger, I saw Updraft in person and his score seems very legit. I'm just wandering when Curt is going to explain himself to the public for one mistake after another.Everyone has to be blind not to see what I am talking about it sickens me.

Virgil, I'm glad to see I'm still the focus of your disparaging remarks and accusations. I seldom feel the need to explain or justify myself or my animals on this forum. Usually, the negativity blasted my way is from the same folks, and always baseless. However, I will take the opportunity to explain where the scoring confusion comes from. First of all, the score of 423 was taken last fall when I drew semen. I chose not to cut Rolex last year, so I only had about 1/2 hour to get as close of an accurate score as I could. (I didn't take the time I needed because I would never jeopardize the health and well being of my animals.) Anyone who knows how to score can verify that there is no way to get a perfect score on antlers like that, in that amount of time. I did my best and came up with 423. I was very conservative and knew I was low and not even sure if I measured every point. I used that score anyway, as it was the best reflection I had available, even though I knew I was low. Also note, I never advertised that as an official score. (I never use my scores on my deer as official, even though I am an official SCI scorer) I do that for obvious reasons. When Rolex dropped his antlers, I then had him officially scored at NADeFA by the master scorers. It was those, master scorers, that came up with 433 6/8. (after 4-5 months of drying and rubbing) I then started using that number in my advertisements. I hope everyone finds that change acceptable. I don't know where the 441 came from, other than an obvious honest mistake made by my ad builder. Doesn't it seem obvious that was an honest mistake when both scores were used in the same ad? Eric Pinkston puts my ads together and sometimes makes errors. Often times I am not able to proof the ads prior to them going to print. I will make a point of it to try to do this from now on so as to not make simple mistakes like that. I'll do that just for you, Virgil. I think Eric will be the first person to admit this was his mistake and doubt most would think he did it deliberately. Most of us know we are human and make mistakes and admit that freely.

Furthermore, I would like to take the opportunity to remind everyone that I have no problem with anyone checking the scores of my animals. So bring your tape and nonbiased official scorer (if you're not one already) to the next show and have at it. Please also remember I am one of the few breeders that will actually have their animals scored by the master scoring panel at the NADeFA Convention. It is there that Rolex was recognized as the new World Record. Is there another buck that could beat him? Probably, but I didn't see their antlers scored there to prove it. I am not saying anything negative towards anyone that chooses not to score their deer at that forum. I am simply stating the obvious that they did not. Surely, it will not be long before someone with a higher scoring deer does just that and Rolex will no longer be the highest scoring deer in the SCI record books. However, to the best of my knowledge, he still is and I will continue to advertise that fact until that status changes.

In closing, I find it telling that my honesty and integrity is only questioned by those that obviously don't know me, nor have done business with me. Those that do know me find these implications and accusations quite funny. I guess it's kind of like calling a heavy person "Slim". I can promise you that there is 1000 people that will validate my integrity and honesty for every 1 that will question it. I appreciate the focus of this topic is on me. I hope it stays that way, too. I can handle it and know the truth of my reputation will prevail. Besides, if your picking on me, your leaving someone else alone.

Anone who would like to discuss this further can call or email me. It might be more proper to not use this forum for such discussions. Even better yet, come by my booth at the next show. I may not know you but you can find me in my Waldvogel Whitetails booth. For those that don't know me, I'll be wearing the Waldvogel Whitetails shirt with the name "Curt" the right chest. I would LOVE the opportunity to have someone speak their mind in person, to me, as freely as they do on this forum. Here is my contact info if you can't find it elsewhere.



(937) 869-0494

[email protected]



Respectfully,





Curt Waldvogel

Curt, VERY WELL SAID.... After seeing Rolex's antlers at your farm, I can't imagine how tough it would be to score him. Congrats on all the great bucks. And I will be 1 of those first 1000 to tell ANYONE that you are a man of your word and a great guy to do business with. THANK YOU

Thanks to those who don't doubt my scores or integrity. I understand there will always be some who cannot be pleased no matter how hard one trys.



I do want to say also that I can very easily see how Curt's example of an error could occur. A 1/2 hour with any buck laying on the table not being able to be turned in just any direction for better measuring would be difficult at best to score with great accuracy, much less a buck with as much bone as Rolex. And then be conservative to later have that score be found wrong. Curt being a former Wisconsinite we have known him for many years. I like Curt and feel he has always tried to be open and upfront.



About the ad building that Eric does. I find Eric to be one of the coolest and most honest people in the industry. I have seen Eric provide the "small guy" opportunities that many others wouldn't provide, I have seen Eric have great concern for being a good steward of the industry. I trust Eric would do the very best he can for all aspects of the industry.

What I don't think many know about building ads and sale books is that it is the ol' hurry up and wait game. For a while Eric has no ads or sale books to put together. Then all of a sudden it is crunch time. Bucks grow out new antlers and new pictures are available. New scores are being sent his way. People are sending in consignments for auctions. People want new ads designed. Sometimes I am as bad as anyone else with those darn last minute changes. (Sorry Kristy, but the ad looks great.) Please take note of the new ad running in the next NADEFA and Deer Tracking magazines. Kristy put some hard work into it for me

Those consignments have to be looked over and judged. And then they have to be turned into a layout for the sale book. They have to be proof read. Corrected. Proof read again, and corrected again. Sometimes this proof reading just can't be accomplished because of deadlines for printing. To be honest I can't see how Eric and everyone else who puts these ads and sale books together does it.

You know one thing that would be a GREAT HELP to these people is if the consignors would submit consignments that are legible and accurate. Scratching down by hand a pedigree on a piece of paper is not the right way to submit the info. And if you do this please be sure it is accurate. It blows my mind how some folks don't even know their own deers pedigrees. All those changes then have to be made.

I say all this because I don't want anyone to think Eric just sits around thinking up ways to deceive readers about scores. Mistakes can and do happen. Everyone regrets those mistakes and not the least of all Eric.

To Eric, Kristy, Rose, and all those who make our ads and sale books. Thank you for the hard work you all put into them.



I have said this before during these types of discussions on here and will say it again. Why do so many look at the scores??? I have told a friend of mine in the past I would like to not even have my buck scored and would rather not advertise a score at all. He told me I couldn't do that. That everyone wants to know a bucks score so I have to have my bucks scored.

When I walk around at a show or flip through a magazine and look at the bucks I first look for a buck that grabs my attention. Then I look closer at his mainframe points. I then want to know his pedigree. I then think how would this deer match with any of my does. The last thing I care about is his score, and I don't really even care about it as much as it is "nice to know" information. In fact I don't think I have ever asked an owner what a bucks score was.



Actually recently I have started instead looking for bucks with a pedigree that matches with my goal for a particular doe in my herd. I then take the pedigrees and narrow the list down to the buck with the antler characteristics that best suits what I am looking for. Again score is not even a concern to me.



On a good note, I will be home later tonight!

21 days gone! 2 complete turns around the world, 2 Pacific crossings and 4 Atlantic crossings. Temperature extremes from 55 degrees to 136 degrees. I am soooooo sick of living in hotels!

Honey I am coming HOME!!!

Glad to hear you'll be home buddy... Have a safe trip and give me a call when you get a chance.

I am not sure what the beef is with curt, but it is bullsh@$t. I dont know curt well but, have talked to him a few times. Year after year he produces some of the best deer in the world, out of the best genetics in the world. You think for one minute that he has to inflate scores to do bussiness???????????????????????Wrong. I think there is a lot of jealous people in this deer farming bussiness. Let's all grow up and get off his *** and try to grow some deer.



Wes Weinberg

RedWater Whitetails

Guys there is one thing that I would like to see, is for everbody that put a final score down, is have a Master score sheet at there booth that is sign from a master scorer.EST score that happen all the time. Because you can not put down a deer to early . and you have these early auction you got to put the closes EST. score that you can, but stay on the low end are keep the score off untill you have the master score done.You can always go up, but it is will hard to go down. I think ever body is going to watch how they score there deer down the line. Because there is alot more people watching, and talking about this subject.I know some people does not want to talk about this , but what it come down to if you are doing this on purpose you are stealing off the other deer farmers.Like Curt said just have your deer score at NADeFA , I think then alot of this would go away.Let me know if I need to wear a bullet proff jacket at the next auction

Curt thanks for clearing that up!!! I just want to let you know I'm not picking on you and this is for your own benifit. You would be suprised to hear the people that see these things and talk about your adds and others ads as well. I just wanted to use you for an example because you are one of the top breeders and you jumped the gun in the past claiming to be the new world record holder with a score 427 that had not even beat the old world record score of 429 6/8 . Trust me their are alot more people saying things behind your back than you know most are just afraid to say anything. I don't really care cause I have nothing to loose and I am a very honest person with nothing to hide. From now on maybe these mistakes should be clarified before people think the wrong thing a lot of new guys cautch these things.

You didn't have to do this for just for me Curt but thanks for making me feal special!!!