Semen stretched to thin for profit!!

I know we discussed this before and went in cricles but i just recieved a letter in the mail that got my blood boiling all over again......What ever happened to honesty and quality......i am going to print the letter i recieved and some of you have received it as well also I'm certian......what really is disturbing is some of the very people we support to protect our interests want to try to sweep this issue under the rug.......while these organizations do plenty for us and I am grateful.... this is one thing that should not be ignored! Below is the letter I received....

Hello Fellow Whitetail deer enthusiasts and consumers,



After the following AI season we felt it extremely important to share our somewhat disheartening experience with the semen we had purchased in good faith for our program. Out of twelve straws of some of the most sought after and highest priced bucks in the industry only two straws were of the quality we would have expected. Maybe our standards are a little higher than others but they are consistent with the same guidelines we learned while breeding cattle. We have video of the properly packaged straws which can be put along side the weak straws and even an unlearned person can see the difference in sperm density, motility and contamination. Upon communicating with other breeders, who have thed equipment and experience to check their semen, we were not the only unhappy customers.



We sent e-mails to the TDA, NADEFA and the CO-OP just to share our experience and suggest some type of idustry standards be set, get a consensus among the Techs and perhaps have an open summit. At least Documented Semen Evaluation should be available on semen being represented at auctions, for a start. Excellent, It's great, Dr. whoever collected it is not an evaluation, it sometimes is a prejudiced opinion. Total sperm numbers are controlled by the amount of extender added to the volume of the collection to acheive a standard of total sperm numbers and a percentage of quality sperm mobility. Once packaged total sperm numbers and contamination are pretty solid constants, even if the straw is damaged and all the sperm is destroyed, total sperm numbers and contamination will not change. Mobility estimates can differ widely between experienced Techs. It takes a very poor straw to get the negative responses from the caliber of proffessionals which were present during our AI sessions.



We received little communication back from the powers that be. To sum i up; been visited before, it is a very hot topic, a lot of the semen on the market probably would not meet quality standaeds,too much money at stake. I beleive the consumers will have to motivate a change. Even in a little thing like a garden , we are all real particular about the seed, fertilizer and dirt that we spend so much time with to produce our prizes.



Please understand that we are still expecting some fawns , due to the depth of our program,protocol and timing as well as controlled roon temperatures and talented AI team(they listed their doctors and others that helped with the AI here I did not want to put names on this since I did not write it)



Note: Conception is not a standard by which semen quality is evaluated. If you spend enough money and put enough poor quality semen in doe that are properly prepared you will probably get some conception. You can certainly have higher success given the opportunity to choose quality semen. Some people believe that lower total sperm counts per straw are acceptable. Common sense dictates that lower standards would certianly be detrimental to successful conception percentages. The AI Idnustry's goal has always been to produce offspring, not how many straws can be produced out of any one collection. At zero hour, a properly packed straw of semen should be the one constant you can count on.



We never asked for any type of restitution. I knew the purchases were made in blind faith without any mention of any guarantees. We only feel that there should be some type of consumer protection set up for the future. Even .79 cent cans of green beans have a list ingredients on the label as well as standards to meet. We will no longer gamble and hold our breath everytime we thaw a straw. Enclosed is a Semen Evaluation Report on one of our bucks as an example...(I can't attach this report but i saw it and it is very proffession and would be great to have attached to the semen you purchase.) We have this documentation on every buck we collected, thinking it would be expected professionally. Join with us and cause the indusrty to evolve professionally, even as all of us did with the DNA Registry. Require a documented Evaluation of each specific collection before you make any purchases including auctions. A straw of semen out of every seperate collection can be thawed and evaluated if a report does not exist. Then you can make an informed decisionas to whether it meets your standards and deserves the investment of your time, money and future aspirations.



I have and always will push for this in our Indusrty.....with the amount of money spent from the purchase of the straw to the cidrs to the actual insemination costs it would be nice to know you are starting with a quality product from the beginning!! What are your thoughts!?

Just on the outside looking in but is it possible they are extending the seman so it makes it harded to split the straws?

We collect semen and have it packaged as high as possible. Some vets even suggest we split before freeze, but we stayed with it. For one, when we pull semen, it is like insurance being in a high BT/EHD area. Two, of what we sell, we want it to produce for the buyer. On all single straw purchaces we guarentee it to stick or we will replace it with ONE more straw. Now, I'm not pulling several thousand dollar a straw semen either. Maybe thats why package it so high density.



Most new farmers need to realize A.I.'ing IS A GAMBLE. If your not willing to take your chances, DONT do it. Just my opinion.

Reed - I haven't been following Deer for very long but did the price of seman start to rise before or after people started to split straws, and when buying a straw of seman do you expect to be able to breed more than 1 doe? As an elk farmer a $5000 straw looks crazy but then when you break it down it doesn't look as bad. With elk you get 1 calf 95% of the time but with deer you get 2-3 fawns. So if you breed 2 doe with 1 straw and get 4-6 fawns that is around $1000 per fawn. That sounds like a great deal. But there is always the chance you get nothing. That is the chance you take.

I agree with Reed. It's a gamble and only take to the table what you are willing to lose. If more regulations implimented price goes up. Over time poor reputation should catch up with semen provider/processor. Even properly packaged semen can be handled incorrectly somewhere along the line. Just my 2 insignificant little pennies.

Steve, To answer your question. We use one straw per doe, and always have. The reason being, we AI between 7 to 10 does, but want to use 7-10 different bucks. Some guys are getting alittle crazy with this straw splitting. Thats why the Flee's family has a contract now.

Reed , I for one applaud your effort to please your customers and it's to bad more producers don't see things the way you do . In my mind it shouldn't matter what the end cost is for semen one buys, it should at least be guarenteed to be mobile and have at least 50 million sperm per straw. The fact that your backing up your straws with another straw is fantastic ! Your cost to collect , package and sell your product is no less then the highest priced semen out there ,so your cost is the same ! I bought several straws of semen once from a guy and didn't get any pregnancies and thought hummm , oh well but when I asked him if he thought the semen MAY have been bad his reply was "you got what you paid for " !! That really wan't very nice considering I paid $1,000.00 per straw . I wasn't exspecting the semen to be replaced but to say I got what I paid for ?? Yikes !! Look at AppleCreek ...125% guarentee not bad is it ? Scott told everyone at his seminar he'd back up their semen because his cost per straw was like $6.00 !! It would be nice to adopt some sort of a breed standard on semen and semen sales . It's just good business in my book . Just a thought !

Dennis, I did get your letter through the Co-op I believe and totally agreed with what your saying, but like you said it's the consumer who will ultimately force this issue. As long as people continue to spend big money on unregulated semen no one is going to change. I believe that the collector should have to sign a statement with the details about the straw, much like an accountant does when preparing a personal financial statment. Now once it leaves their hands they have no control over how and where it is stored. They can't control it if somenoe stores it on their farm and forgets to refill the tank in time. I know one breeder that will not sell you a straw of semen unless you agree to store it at the Elgin Storage facility until you need it for breeding. He'll even set up the account for you. He knows the quality of the semen when he sells it, and to guarantee it stays that quality this is what he does. If you don't want to do that then you don't have to buy it. Anyways, there are several ways to create an industry standard, but like you said, I believe it will take a committee from these organizations that will have to set that standard and refuse to sell any semen in their auctions that do not satisfy that standard.

I have a question.. How many moble cells does it take to get a doe to take in the Ai process..... 2nd question how many eggs does it take to put a fawn on the ground....

and the last questions that i have is many of yall think that your Ai programs has every

thing to do with the semen and the doc that is putting it into the doe .

Guys,

It does not take a rocket scientist to figure this whole thing out......think about it.....the only person that would fight against an industry standard are those that want to take advantage of other farmers....like I said, think about it.......putting an industry standard on semen would not only protect the consumer but the semen producer as well! If the semen was confirmed to be of Industry standards then this is insurance for the semen producer and it is comforting for the consumer who is writing a check for something that should be (NOT A GAMBLE) but good quality semen. Now if you are buying the semen from another farmer who does not own the original buck and who is selling extra straws that he has then you are taking a chance that the semen was not handled properly and could be damaged. There I might agree about the taking a Gamble theory. But when purchasing it from the farm it should be of good quality and meet some type of industry standard.....like I said before it only makes sense...it protects both the consumer and the producer....how can you argue that and what really drives me nuts is how couldn't you want that?! the only way i could see someone not wanting this is because they want to stretch their semen and get as many straws as possible out of a collection and not worry about whether or not it will be good enough to succeed. Having a Industry standard for semen makes sense for everyone no matter what side of the fence you are on (producer or consumer)!.

ddwhitetail and droptine I think you are right. There should be standards on the seman but it needs to be done through the associations and auction companies. In order to advertise or sell through the associations and auction companies they should meet all standards. Like ddwhitetail said if someone wont comply with the standards why would I want to deal with that person.



On the other hand if the producer has to comply to sandards than the consumer should have to follow a code of ethics. Just because the seman can be split it doen't mean it should be split.

Steve I hear what your saying but if the Industry comes up with a semen standard on what it should take to breed a doe....and if the consumer wants to take a chance on splitting a straw then to me I feel that is their gamble the straw was approved for one breeding not two and if the consumer decides to take a gamble then thats their choice......

I'd have to agree with Dennis 100% on the idea of if you have a problem with setting somesort of standard on semen quality then you must have something to hide . In my opinion even if your selling a straw from a buck you do not own you still should guarentee mobility or you shouldn't be selling it with any kind of concence. If your willing to sell a straw whether it's from your buck or someone elses buck and your more than happy to take someones money as well as their hopes of getting a fawn then you should be willing to back it up to at least be mobile and a minimum number of live sperm. I mean we cycle our does and that takes time and money and we really only have one chance to AI so why not at least be confident the semen your using can at least get you a pregnacy if everything goes right . To go through all that and add the cost of the straw of semen and theres no chance in hell you'll get a pregnancy because the semen isn't capable to me is just wrong and bad business . Doesn't it seem odd to anyone else besides myself that we have gone to almost having to DNA everything we buy as well as check out semen under the scope before we use it . Is this progress , is this the way we want to go as an industry ? Yes I'd agree DNAing is good business and looking at semen under the scope is wise at best but the fact that we "have to " is somewhat shocking to me . Just my opinion nothing more ..

I am not against an industry standard. I am against forced regulation though. If you want a gaurentee go to applecreek. I think in order to gaurentee fawns DNA would have to be done. Would you trust me if I used a straw of semen and said it didn't produce? Would I need to DNA my whole heard to prove that I didn't put the straw in another deer? What if I didn't use the straw?



I find it peculiar that because I don't endorse or promote association or regulatory intervention that somehow I have been catagorized as someone that has something to hide. Sorry but I got nuttin' to hide! I don't have semen to sell and I don't have an AI program.



I can say that if I was buying semen that was say a couple grand per straw I would be jumping on the regulatory bandwagon. If I was buying semen it would be from those I have trust and/or reputable.



Show me the cost of such regulation and that may convince me whether or not to oppose such forced regulation.



Again, I think having some sort of standard is not a bad thing and could actually benefit many but if hoops have to be jumped through to meet standard and such hoops cost me say $300-$400 to have my herd DNA'd...well the gaurentee of the $500 straw I may have purchased seems watered down. There is good and bad points to regulation. Not saying regulation is a bad idea... only that there are two sides to consider.

Rusty answers to your questions below in RED



"I am not against an industry standard. I am against forced regulation though. If you want a gaurentee go to applecreek." Rusty where does it say anywhere about a gaurantee no one said anything about a gaurantee?!! "Would you trust me if I used a straw of semen and said it didn't produce?"No i would not trust you and again that is not what we are looking for with an industry standard...what we are looking for is a simple confirmation that the semen was good upon collection and that it was not watered down so to speak so more straws could be sold."Would I need to DNA my whole heard to prove that I didn't put the straw in another deer?"NO "What if I didn't use the straw?" thats your choice no one here is saying you would have to with an industry standard thats not what an industry standard means.....an industry standard simply dictates what it feels the standards should meet in the semen in order to have a successful breeding not that you have to dna your deer or tell you that you have to use the straw."I find it peculiar that because I don't endorse or promote association or regulatory intervention that somehow I have been catagorized as someone that has something to hide." "Sorry but I got nuttin' to hide!" "I don't have semen to sell and I don't have an AI program." Rusty sorry if my statement offended you regarding this but if you fully understand what an Industry standard means then you will understand that there is no reason to be against it...it is protection for the semen producer because it confirms that the semen is good at the time of collection and it is comforting to the consumer as he at least knows the semen started out good. "I can say that if I was buying semen that was say a couple grand per straw I would be jumping on the regulatory bandwagon. If I was buying semen it would be from those I have trust and/or reputable." Why should it be any different no matter what you are spending on semen your purchasing a product that should be good no matter what the price is....."Show me the cost of such regulation and that may convince me whether or not to oppose such forced regulation." Rusty you keep using the words forced regulation and thats fine but nobody is being forced to do anything However under a Industry standard you are being told that if you want to sell your product at certian auctions or places you need to meet their Industry standard so I don't call that forced you can make your semen however you want and if you can sell it and it doesn't meet the standards then more power to ya! As far as cost I'm sure the cost wouldn't be anymore than what it costs to have a fawn dna'd and the semen collector would only have to have one staw analized in order to have the whole batch he collected confirmed good quality so the costs would be minimal......."Again, I think having some sort of standard is not a bad thing and could actually benefit many but if hoops have to be jumped through to meet standard and such hoops cost me say $300-$400 to have my herd DNA'd...well the gaurentee of the $500 straw I may have purchased seems watered down." "There is good and bad points to regulation. Not saying regulation is a bad idea... only that there are two sides to consider." Rusty with an industry standard there would be no hoops you would have to go through no different than having your animals dna'd.....the cost would be on the semen collector and very minimal.......I call this Indusrty Standard and I really don't see the two sides to condiser unless like i have said before you are someone that wants to try to hide something....this is protection for both no matter what side you are on!!!!

I think what Dennis started here was a check on semen QUALITY not guaranteed conception. There are so many variables with the does that it would make it very hard to guarantee conception. Now if everything with that doe is just right she will catch. BUT, if everthing is just right and that straw of semen is not good it`s game over. Over the last 5 years I have watched the quality of semen drop big time. Personnaly I think this has come from over extension of semen. If you get a good quality draw of 100 straws why stretch it to 150 or even 200? $$$ I`ll be the first to say that I know that it only takes one swimmer to do the job. There has always been that question I asked myself about the does the time of insemination? Are they just coming in or are they just going out? After attending a class one year at the Nadefa conference I learned about capacitation time. This is the time that the sperm will kinda just hang around preparing ( stagging if you will ) for the eggs to drop. This time could be 6 hrs. This brings me to the question if your using very low quality semen and you find very few swimmers what happens when the last few left die before the eggs come down?

My buddy has been Aiing a few years now and he has his lap top set up on the microscope and camera so veiwing is easy. When your looking at a 17" screen and you have to study it to see if there is anything moving. You may be into 1, 2 3, even 4 drops of semen before you ever detect any sign of life. What ya see is a bunch of broke tails, crooked tails and no tails and maybe a couple swimmers. Your all right in the fact that AI is a gamble. But if your going to gamble wouldn`t ya at least like the odds a bit in your favor? The biggest gamble of all is the does and hitting close to the peak of their cycle. Here we go again, we can never predict a woman.

I hear a lot of talk of miss handling of semen but my buddy and I took a very high density straw of his semen and we did everything you can think of to kill it. I think it was 1 or 2 days of heating, cooling, freezing and even leaving on the consol of his car. After all that, there was still little movement. I`m not trying to cut anybody`s throat I just think semen should have a minimum density spec set up to help all breeders. Personnally I don`t feel there should be any kind of guarantee on fawns just that semen is good quality. My hat off to those of you that make that kind of guarantee. Those of you that replace a straw because of no conception have gone above.



Polish Math

GOOD quality semen = Good gamble

POOR quality semen = Bad gamble

Bad semen = More girls for the back up.

Mitch yes you must have been typing the same time as i was........you are exactly right about what i am trying to explain......there is no way you can give gaurantees!! But you can have an Industry Standard that simply protects the consumers at least at the time that the semen is being produced. If the semen is misshandled then obviously things will start going down hill....but at least with the semen having to meet an industry standard to be sold at certian places and or auctions the buyer at the very least knows the semen started out right. like i have stated before......the only ones that would be against something like this are those that are more worried about making a dollar on someone rather than knowing that they will have a satisfied customer!

The details say it all. If only one straw is sampled per draw then I can see where price is minumally effected. I was envisioning all straws having to be inspected.



A regulated standard does give an advatage to a buyer if that is the only type of semen an auction might allow HOWEVER if cost is virtually uneffected then its a mute point not to get your semen draw standardized. The final impact of price per straw has a great impact on how I feel about whether it should be encouraged to establish a regulated standard.



Forgive me for throwing the word gaurentee out there about getting fawns. The only thing I saw with gaurentee was in Reed's post near top but not what I was referring to.



As a rule of thumb I think regulation can be counterproductive in many arenas. When I think of an auction that might only sell standardized semen that's where the definition of just an industry standard becomes "forced". If an unnamed Joe has a beautiful buck sprout from a freak of luck or genes or whatever we all know you will have to follow the guidelines of the auction criteria in order to play with the big boys. Call it what you will, industry standard, suggested concentration, standardized straw, but if you can't sell it at auctions it seems forced to me. But to reiterate... if price is minumally effected then I see no opposition to creating some standard of concentration.

...and I still have nothing to hide.

Hey Rusty no one ever said you had anything to hide Oh and yes the cost would be minimal......not sure i understand your definition of forced......no one is forcing you to meet the industry standards and you have your own standards and sell to whom ever you want......yes there would be places you could not sell your semen at if they didn't meet the indusrty standards but that is not called forced....now if the indusrty said you could not sell to anyone at anytime in any state unless you meet the standards then i might agree that is forced....but anyhow....i'm not fighting against you Rusty i'm fighting for you!!

The main problem I see with this certification of the semen is that it would only be certified when it was drawn by the certified vet. If it was then kept on the farms storage anything could happen to it. You would only know if it was still as good as it was when it was collected if it was checked by a certified semen inspector at the time of AI. This would mean no more AIing your deer yourself and that could cost you some money. Or you could require all semen be collected by a certified semen inspector and then he would take it to a certified semen collection storage lab. It would then be shipped through the labs certified messinger service to your vet or yourself to be inplanted in your does. The only thing is I'll bet the cost of these services would not be that insignificant. When ever there is a mandate and if people want to sell their goods they must comply with this then cost is going to go up. Maybe I'm just a little skeptical but it seems to me that we better think hard before we demand more regulation in our industry. Ofcource I'm not a rocket scientist so maybe I just don't see things that clear.