The worst of times

I have been in deer since the early 90's and I guess we have hit an all time low for the industry. Folks are now offering free bottle started doe fawns to anyone who wants them. Feed prices are triple what they were in the early 90's and vet costs are through the roof. For me to ship a deer off my farms costs me $150 minimum for a farm inspection and a shipping cert. Back when I started doe fawns could be purchased for $200 to $500 each. And at that time there was still room for a profit to be made because costs were so low. To sell a doe fawn now for $200 each would be a loss and not even a break even point. I am not slamming on those who feel the need to give away fawns. No one wants to kill newborn fawns that are unwanted. We love our animals too much for that. We can only put so much meat in the freezer while culling out extra does, and that is if you care to eat your own deer. But the fact is times have changed. The market is the worst I have seen in my time with deer. And unless the supply and demand shifts dramatically it will not improve. We know there is only so much we can do to control costs. Vets are not going to lower their charges and the gov is not going to relax the testing and permit fees. Feed mills are not going to lower the cost of corn, oats, soybeans or anything thing else. In fact these things will continue to increase. Several months ago I was contacted by a guy looking to get started in deer and he wanted to ask me some questions. I said sure but that I had some stuff to ask him first. The first thing I said is, "are you really sure you want to invest money in a dying industry?" After talking with him about just how poorly I see the market being he still insisted on getting started. So I have tried to help guide him along to ensure that he not lose too much money on this adventure.


Folks I think we have hit the point where everyone needs to take a step back and REALLY think about what is going on here. We are easily fooled into thinking we are actually making money with our deer. When we ship a load of bucks in fall we get a check. Whatever size check that is relative to size of the farm you have. But that check is deceiving!!  It is only a hobby if we can AFFORD to make ZERO money from it. For most folks, investing thousands each year with no hope of a return is not financially realistic. It looks good to show a loss tax wise but we fool ourselves into thinking we really are making something.


I just had to spout off a little. I am just so disgusted with how the industry has gone. And those who think that certain "special" bloodlines still have value are fooling themselves. If you want to believe that a handful of guys manipulating the markets trading money back and forth for show at the auctions is reality, then I have a bridge I want to sell you.


Ok I am done with the soap box.


R

Well said Roger I just told a new interested farmer the same thing today.  I just can't tell a person this industry isn't hurting and like you I expect it will get worse.  Our end product for the the harvest facilities is not working because we are not using all the animals we are now producing.  Time will adjust this like any business as our production will go down when big money see's they can't triple their money and they will bail.  When Montana was hit with no harvesting of our animals all the big guy got out of the business because it just wouldn't pencil out.  This has to happen and will happen.  Only those who really loved the animals will be in this business and when the glut of bucks goes down we will be able to make a modest living raising whitetail again.. 

I sold my bucks in January again last year for the price I ask in September. Years ago I stated that the terminal market(the hunter) is the truthful jury of all our genetics. That has always been the case. I very very rarely send a consignment in to auction. We donate a few consignments to benefit auctions. I only buy about three straws of semen every 3 years. We have happily plodded along raising stocker bucks. We don't try to sell our does. The good ones we keep the rest go to preserve. Our hobby pays for itself. Dad and I still enjoy it very much. The other night very late I went to the deer pen to check on a doe that I thought might have had its fawns. There was my Dad sitting in a lawn chair in the buck pen relaxing. My heart was filled with mirth.

I don't believe there is a glut of typical hunt bucks out there. Hunters will pay a premium for a certain type of antler. Those who recognize it will be in this business long term.

Roger. A lot of people do not run their operations to make money, BUT if it is ran correctly, there is money to be made. I am giving some doe fawns away. I could probably sell them or put them in my preserve, but if a small farm needs a couple good does and doesnt have the cost of buying them, they will be a little farther ahead. Just thought it was a good thing to do, didnt mean to get you upset.

AnthonyWR1029991434500988

Roger. A lot of people do not run their operations to make money, BUT if it is ran correctly, there is money to be made. I am giving some doe fawns away. I could probably sell them or put them in my preserve, but if a small farm needs a couple good does and doesnt have the cost of buying them, they will be a little farther ahead. Just thought it was a good thing to do, didnt mean to get you upset.


Matt as I stated I was not slamming you or anyone. I just believe the market is really poor and unless the supply and demand switches nothing will change.

My opinion of the industry is very harsh because we have no harvest facilities here in Montana.  We have to take our animals at least 700 miles from our ranch and most places are almost twice that.  That makes it hard to turn a profit on whitetail.  I've had farms tell me they only raise male whitetail.  When this industry would make me only raise male whitetail because the doe fawns are not worth raising I'm done.  Be honest to yourselves. 


Matt I'm sure glad your helping the farmer that is starting out and see nothing wrong with giving the fawns to people who will take care of them.  If I was able to take you up on that it is a great offer.

In Alabama it has never been better! We can't raise enough bucks and does are still bringing good money.

IMO

There are many things that would greatly benefit this industry. These are a few.

1.Open and revise the standards document for "OUR"CWD program.

2. Preserves could stop undercutting each other's hunt prices to gain market share quickly.

3.Things would be better if monkey gougers didn't have the patent on sexing semen.

I believe when some get with the program and raise what the industry demands they will get much further ahead!    I know i cant raise enough 150-180 inch bucks in my state. If thats what they want then thats what i give them. ALOT of them. I believe if they guys that are making money are the guys that are giving the hunter what he wants and got that.....I want to raise the biggest buck out there thinking.


 


I broke my 100 deer herd into 3 different breeding groups. I have great does that get aied every year and their bucks stay till 3 reguardless of size, then there are a group of pretty good does that get it done with a good farm buck that most get sold at 2 but some held untill 3 and then a group of does that make bucks that get sold at 2 everytime. At times on a farm some tough calls have to be made and thats not just in deer. Farm smart, Grow what you need if you can and cut corners where they can be cut.


I spoke with a guy in Pa the other day that wanted like 2 grand for doe fawns. great proven lines but just like Matt here and even myself..There are way to many great lines out there that make the same kind of deer for him to get 2 grand for them.  As is shown in this case.

Mike

Let me guess the guy selling the $2,000.00 proven fawns had a list you could get on, was all sold out in 2014, the price was for a limited time only and soon to go up. Chuckles

If a straw of semen cost more than a doe fawn is worth conceived from the straw on my farm then the buck is nothing but hyped bologna. Nearly any Thunderstorm doe on anyone's farm will still sell for more than the straw of semen ever cost and it has been that way for twelve years or more. IMO that is a super sire.

the day of raising for inches, getting culiflower-tumor heads or poodles and being able to sell them are almost gone.  The average person buying a hunt cannot afford the high end animal.    When a seller cant get 1/3 of what the hunt sells for, something has to give.  Are hunts really selling for the advertised price??? When you cant get 1/2 the hunt for your stocker, late season, it doesnt look like it.  There are too many of the uninformed selling their bucks for next to nothing because they are told that is all they can get for them, and the middle man is making as much as the breeder and still selling them too cheap.    

jerrilee cave1030111434518879



the day of raising for inches, getting culiflower-tumor heads or poodles and being able to sell them are almost gone.  The average person buying a hunt cannot afford the high end animal.    When a seller cant get 1/3 of what the hunt sells for, something has to give.  Are hunts really selling for the advertised price??? When you cant get 1/2 the hunt for your stocker, late season, it doesnt look like it.  There are too many of the uninformed selling their bucks for next to nothing because they are told that is all they can get for them, and the middle man is making as much as the breeder and still selling them too cheap.    




You sure hit that one right and until farmers start holding their ground on price then nothing will change and they very well could be the next to drop out of the races which would then make our bucks worth more because of less of them out there.


 


This gets even more know in a closed border state. Our state has never been a big hunting state because many big money guys have ranchs ran like golf club memberships and just have big money friends hunt with few knowing about it. We are talking 3000 acre spreads. The guys that do buy stockers only have hunts for the 140-180 bucks with very few 200 needed. Now if the few in this state that are here and sell deer would hold true to their value we might be like a Texas or Alabama but i sure wont hold my breath for that day!

Rodger your right. This year hit home with me personally. Last year I sold all my unleashed doe fawns and had a list for 800. This year i sold most so far for 200-300.  Im very happy i sold what i did and appreciate it but whats killing me is state stipulations.  In my dma they found cwd in the wild so it really limits me for sales of fawns.  I took a big gamble last year and doubled my amount of bred doe.  My idea was and still is that selling 3 shooters a year there wasnt enough meat on the bone to make it break even.  If you loose one of those three you suddenly in the red. So in order to make it easier on me i decided i need at least 15 to make it worth the risk.  I had 20 bred this year and luckly i have an abundance of buck fawns and ive been able to sell my doe fawns, not for the amount they sold last year but i dont have to feed them.  Unless you breed with only sexed semen for shooter makers like us, its the issue we will have every year unless there is a big swing is the buck to doe ratio.  Its hard on me because i do not ai so im playing the gamble.  Thank God i have a buck producer, but that could all change one year.


 


What really gets me is you referred to a guy in pa that wanted 2000 and there was a list - heres one for you i called a guy about a doe fawn  he wanted more money than what i paid for a 300" yearling Unleashed.  Where are they getting this from?


 


I had a dream of getting into the "breeder" market.  I improved all my stuff tremendously to try it.  That dream is fading very quickly.  I feel if i can raise 15 2 year old bucks each year and move the doe fawns i honestly believe i will not have an issue turning some profit


 


As for giving away doe fawns.  Yea the market sucks, but its cheaper on your wallet than feeding them

Where our industry has gone wrong is the surplus doe market. If you take them out of production then your helping you buck market. Simple math. For every doe you GIVE away you are only hurting yourself, take them out of production. I will not give does away. We are at the point in our herd that it will be necessary to cull and butcher. We will face this problem until eternity if we don't open up and market nationwide for venison. A good leader would have recognized this years ago. It's call being on offense not defense. Everything this industey does is about defending ourselves. We need to help ourselves instead of crying the blues, and the time to start is now. Talk to your ACA reps in your state and let's make a difference.

jerrilee cave1030171434549953



Where our industry has gone wrong is the surplus doe market. If you take them out of production then your helping you buck market. Simple math. For every doe you GIVE away you are only hurting yourself, take them out of production. I will not give does away. We are at the point in our herd that it will be necessary to cull and butcher. We will face this problem until eternity if we don't open up and market nationwide for venison. A good leader would have recognized this years ago. It's call being on offense not defense. Everything this industey does is about defending ourselves. We need to help ourselves instead of crying the blues, and the time to start is now. Talk to your ACA reps in your state and let's make a difference.




Sad but true. Cant say take the fawns out of production but if you breed up like you should be doing then the fawn is better bloodline than the doe, If you dont need them both then do away with the doe. If she has not proven even decent shooters then bye-bye. I had a couple that just walked away from their fawns this year, after being good moms last. Where do ya think they are headed?  Right out back into my wild herd!  Ha how sweet would that be.  Nah that would help a state with low deer populations so why would we be able to do that?

I've done some checking and you need to check your state regulations to see if farmed venison can be sold in your state. If not, your state association needs to work on getting legislation passed so that it can be done. Indiana allows it but Ohio does not. Selling your yearling doe for $100 does yourself a favor because the market will be less flooded with bucks.

I know it cuts out a great deal of hunters but at the end of the day it's business not charity and preserves have to start increasing their prices. Sometimes I think people have the perception / expectation is that its a menu book and you can order the buck you want. Most hunter's want a non typical in the wild because it is rare and and a typical behind fence because they get the most bang for their buck. 


 


We all know the first problem is supply or people's lack of space to hold onto bucks they don't want to give away.   The second problem is expenses.  Hopefully in about 3 years I'll have enough of the crosses made that I like I can cut back on huge AI bills.  As far as medications and vaccines...weeding that out gradually because I'm highly unimpressed with either so far.


 


Some people are well known and make just as much profit off of their fawns as bucks.  The only reason to have breeder pens for me is to make the crosses I want and to try to grow the looks I like not what the breeder market fad or our perception of what hunters want.  On the irony side of this topic is that Maxbo XL is one of the highest priced / demanded straws out there and yet some of the lower priced fawns i bought had his grand dam 3-6 times...

TRUTH1030211434557035

  As far as medications and vaccines...weeding that out gradually because I'm highly unimpressed with either so far. ...
You said a mouth full there Travis. I spent $2K on vaccines this year. Ecoli was among the vaccines. I had not had fawns with ecoli on my farm in over 10 years. But this year I do. So far I have lost 6 out of 10 fawns. I am not at all impressed.

I have often talked with friends about if we over medicate our deer. If we would be better off letting their natural immunity handle things. I am going back to that theory. I only hope I have not messed up my stock using all the stuff these years.

I think your on it roger  I never medicate lose is at 1 % if that much  all natural breeding and no bottle feeding no separation ect T&S

as matter of fact the guy I bought deer from lost almost all of the ones in pen with my button buck but  he is still alive at 200 inch plus at five this year T&S