What is the possibility?

Yes, I have hoarded several thousand straws from the 80s & 90s of P1 stags & bucks. Many of these lines & sub species don't exist anymore, there are still deer in these regions today, but they are all hybrids. 

This type of breeding in the whitetail world IMO is hard to do for most..............Because they Breed the mother,get a daughter, cull the mother........Repeat steps 1 & 2 year after year selling "Proven Does " LOl


The things they bred for to produce the daughter that had the traits they sought..............But would NEVER breed the womb brother..........Because he didn't have the "LOOK" let alone advance a line with a grandson or great grandson ?


 


What percentage of deer breeders would you say exist that have F3's or better ? F2's ?

Whitetail Sanctuary1064931457576374

This type of breeding in the whitetail world IMO is hard to do for most..............Because they Breed the mother,get a daughter, cull the mother........Repeat steps 1 & 2 year after year selling "Proven Does " LOl

The things they bred for to produce the daughter that had the traits they sought..............But would NEVER breed the womb brother..........Because he didn't have the "LOOK" let alone advance a line with a grandson or great grandson ?

 

What percentage of deer breeders would you say exist that have F3's or better ? F2's ?
Wayne

I don't know of one breeder who has an F2 or F3 that equals its F1 parent in antler expression.

On the outside looking in, the question is how many breeders have P1 herds?


Hopefully this is an "the emperor wears no clothes" moment & deer farmers now read a bit about Mendel & genetic theory.                  

 


It doesn't have to be hard, if you can get some good P1 does you can use any genetically different P1 sires to produce great hybrids, both typical & non typical. Just dont breed from these F1 animals or polute your P1 herd which you need to maintain so as to produce the hybrids. The hard part is finding the P1 does or having the desire ,dedication & determination to produce your own. The rewards are certainly there for those who can. Both in stud P1 animals & terminal but magnificent looking F1 bucks. 


At the moment I am running two different herds of P1 Fallow & two different herds of P1 rusa (as well as a few other species). These will never be polluted. I have the choice of putting P1 sambar over both species of rusa, but I don't like doing this as it goes against my own nature. I will also never cross the Persian or Hungarian fallow. I will however establish another herd & line of P1 European fallow deer in a couple of years to produce F1's from with the Hungarians. I will try to have Danish fallow, but I might settle for English park deer instead. This new line of fallow will also be P1 animals & never polluted, I will cross the best from both lines to produce bucks with hybrid vigour, they will be great, but they will all be terminal & never used on my place. This type of model is used by many different animal industries.

Does outcrossing 2 P1 lines within the same subspecies create an F1?

That would depend if the two P1 lines were homozygous ( they have the same alleles forming genes) or heterozygous ( they have different alleles forming the genes). If they are homozygous you will still have P1 deer if they are heterozygous you will have F1 deer. 


Alleles are dominant or recessive, what we are doing in the F2 & F3 generations is allowing the unwanted recessive genes to pop up so we can cull them out. We cant cull them out of a magnificent looking F1 hybrid because they dont express, thats hybrid vigour. All the recessive genes in both P1 parents are pased onto the F1"s, they are still there & will pop up again & again, unless we take the line through the required generations & cull them out. F2 generation is when the recessive genes start to show, F3 is when they really show up.

now I'm going to throw the midwest monkey wrench of EHD in there and how darn difficult it is to keep these animals alive generations down the line and even keep your P1's alive for lets say 5 years.  sorry to spoil a good party LOL but its reality for some of us

We need to regularly breed replacements for our P1 lines not just use them to produce terminal F1's. If starting a new foundation line each ffilial generation can be culled as soon as there is the required animals in the next. EHD is a factor if we are looking to select for a resistance, however EHD doesn't change how genetics works.

sharkey1065001457661263



We need to regularly breed replacements for our P1 lines not just use them to produce terminal F1's. If starting a new foundation line each ffilial generation can be culled as soon as there is the required animals in the next. EHD is a factor if we are looking to select for a resistance, however EHD doesn't change how genetics works.




No but sure does change the worth of even trying to breed anywhere near that.  Breed nice producing deer and hope for the best.

sharkey1065001457661263



We need to regularly breed replacements for our P1 lines not just use them to produce terminal F1's. If starting a new foundation line each ffilial generation can be culled as soon as there is the required animals in the next. EHD is a factor if we are looking to select for a resistance, however EHD doesn't change how genetics works.




Sharkey ............Hate to disagree..............But when EHD not only De Limbs the "Family Tree"...............But takes the Stump,Limbs and Root ball out.............EHD does adversely affect how it works! at least for those that have it looming in our programs.

So in today's market of bred does , especially AI does, we are really buying the hopes of a good F1 to possibly become our next P1. Looking at the bred doe market , you really don't see much resembling an F2 or F3 and never an F4 or F5. As was stated earlier this discussion probably isn't comfortable with some that are desiring a different market. Taking the semen of a great buck , introducing it to a bunch of great does and selling them , isn't likely to build anyone a great herd with specific trait consistencies?

EHD has been a burden to many breeders. Garlic may be a game changer. I saw strong evidence of it weakening the EHD virus cell. I do not fear the next EHD event.

The thing you must remember about EHD is that if you get hit HARD like we did last year IT WILL wipe out 90% of your adults, you are left with are 30% of your yearlings and the majority of fawns.  Sooooooo,  the reality for some of us is that some types of programs will not work.


I can say thankfully we were not using male semen only or else we would have nothing left of the typical genetics we have worked for since we have been breeding.  Forget trying to get to a f6 generation in the midwest.  


But I can see where using male for p1's could be very useful for the shooter market.

Using male semen to create F1 hybrids for the hunt market is no doubt a better choice than using male semen from within the same subspecies.

Bell1065061457723690

EHD has been a burden to many breeders. Garlic may be a game changer. I saw strong evidence of it weakening the EHD virus cell. I do not fear the next EHD event.


If you use garlic don't do it seasonally. Go all year round then.

IndependenceRanch1065091457740030


If you use garlic don't do it seasonally. Go all year round then.

Please explain why this is important or significant? We began to feed garlic in early July through November. Garlic is good for the blood. Generally that is our EHD season in Indiana. I don't understand how it is weakening the virus cell and allowing the deer's natural antibodies to penetrate and destroy them. I have a sibling who has graduated from med school who can explain this. I can't do it.

It is my opinion that it is best to use it year round to keep the concentration high. I look at it much the same way some medications work. As an example many antidepressants have to build up a certain level in the body before they begin to work well. I do think garlic works for most all biting insects if the garlic concentration is high enough.

I believe my deer were still getting bit by the midge gnats even though they were consuming a LOT of garlic. Many of the deer were showing clinical symptoms in the pen where an extremely high amount of garlic was being fed but none died. What is even more odd is that the symptoms only lasted about 12 hours before disappearing completely. We had 29 adult deaths in the pens directly beside this pen during the disease event. Gravity feeders were being used in these pens. It was impossible for us to feed the same high volume of garlic there as top dressing in trough style feeders. Mills in our area will not mix garlic into our pelleted mix.

How much garlic would you add in a one ton mix.

I don't know for certain. We were putting a quart scoop of powder on top of 5 gallons of feed. We were using at least 80lbs per ton.