Big numbers

So after thinking about how these big deer can approach scores that are being talked about, I ran some basic math for everyone to think about while planning for future breeding's.



The new bench mark for our industry in the way on Non-typical's appears to be 600 inches, which is still mind boggling to think about.



Here is the breakdown to put things in perspective.



Inside Spread- 30in

Mass total-----70in

Beams --------35 and 35

g1-----------12,12

g2------------16,16

g3------------14,14

g4------------12,12

g5-------------10,10



Total------298 gross mainframe (The largest ever)



Then add 300 more inches of extras and you still fall short of 600. Its a big number!! I can't wait to see these big boys at the shows!! Good luck to all.

That is the problem we've run into with Ballistic. We feel he has at least 70 measurable points. He has tons of mass and is wide - maybe 30". We try to guess the average length of his tines, but even a quarter of an inch off can make a big difference. It is really hard to estimate him. We are really curious though to see what he comes out with. We feel pretty confident it will have a 5 as the first number.

That certainly puts things in perspective Josh!

WRW, is that the latest pic of Ballistic?

Josh, I've been discussing the issue at length with several top producers of our industry. Here is the question : If our deer are currently having to be cut while still in its growth stage and is not related to a antler injury , what are we doing to ourselves ,our animals and ultimately our industry? After all our deer are primarily for preserve s. If our deer can't hold up their heads @ 1,2,3 or older, what good is that? I see this quite often and so does everyone else. I am changing my current breeding accordingly -Jason

I agree - we were totally surprised by Ballistic. He doesn't seem to have a problem carrying his antlers so right now we aren't planning on sawing him. We'll see what happens. Sometimes if they break off something and become lopsided then it is necessary. We're lucky he has grown relatively evenly.

How much does Ballistic weigh???? Seems only natural bigger bucks can handle the weight over smaller texas style deer? just my thoughts





Scott Neeb

Chanllow Farms

In the heart of Pa dutch country

Jason i said that a while back and i think i got blackballed by a few people.Trust me when i say i love raising my deer and would still do it if i never made a penny off them

(which i have not) With people breeding for bigger and bigger..first 500 now 600 and all other deer get bigger.I think in a few years we could very well breed ourselves right out the door.Its getting to the point where the deer some are raising do not look like deer any longer.I cant tell you how many people say that we are raisin freaks...Not deer.I hope it never comes to this but it would not surprize me!!

4 season's. i completely agree! well said.

I guess we can't control the outcome of every deer's genetic potential, however our breeding strategy should be geared towards making a final beautiful product. That being a healthy Buck able to carry himself at all ages . I'm guessing we will eventually see a lot more incomplete freeze dried deer antlers at the booths. I personally don't have a problem with them if its due to medical reasons. But if the overall trend is landsliding in that direction, I want to be watching from afar.-Jason

breed bigger deer that can Carry the larger racks

Remember it all ends up at the hunters. Don't get away from the end result. I don't know that there are many people out there that can afford to shoot a 500"-600"+ deer. Do you?

Thats it,The prices will come down to meet the size of the deer out there.Back when it was 150in was a good one now 200in is kinda on the small side.god only made whitetail deer to be so big.I mean first you hear feed your this extra stuff in its feed and you will make monster racks.Then you hear i might have to cut the rack off because he is to heavy and cant handle it and now you hear of a deer in pa that had to get cut early and the back pressure of blood pushes out through his eyes because he has such blood flow.It just seems that its never a good ending for the deer that is bred to be huge but the breedings keep comin.It all rolls downhill from there if a person grows or buys a huge deer they can sell deer and get into auctions left and right and the ones that have solid producing does get looked over because there is no huge buck behind him.

I don't know what Ballistic weighs in answer to an earlier question. He's not a huge deer, but probably average for a northern deer. The pic I posted was the most recent one I have. He has slowed down quite a bit but we should get some updated pics. We are working on our breeder DVD that will show him just this past week. You can see him swinging his head around pretty well on the video so he seems to be doing OK with his rack.

there is no limit set, people are going to keep pushing. Sure its awesome to see the bucks get bigger and bigger, and see your genetic pairings pay off with giants, is it worth having a goal to have all your bucks necks snap under the weight of antler? Like mentioned before, the hunters are the ones to please, no one needs to hunt 500" deer, that is something that is not found in nature, heck there wasn't ever a 400" buck in nature.

There Will never be a 500" buck shot in a preserve, because they have to get sawed off before they get into hard horn.

It is awesome to see one in picture and videos, but i would just like to see them be able to carry the rack in great health all year and not get sawed.

Most really big domestic turkey farmers can no longer use there toms to breed their hens, why?

They have to AI their hens because the breast of the toms have been so genetically enlarged they are not capable of naturally breeding a hen. We are heading in a simalar direction with heads verses antlers. If it continues, they need to breed bigger bodies. Use semen out of a 400lb buck on your power does, who cares what rack is on his head, your problem is in the body, they need to be able to carry the weight.

Notice i am not calling out anyone in particular, I cant imagine the money/time/ risk you put in to get a giant breeder, congrats for that, you are among the top of the industry but seriously when is enough, enough? Will 600" work, how about 650" thats even better, or can we push it a little further, just to say "we did it". This is not a problem i have to deal with nor will i ever have to. It's the guys sitting at the top right now who are going to make the next move. go for Bigger next year? they are the ones who will learn first hand the conseqences of a deer that is just too big to live a normal life.

Antlershed,

Big horns are in demand by smaller breeders as well. I have to admit I would be a bit excited to have a fawn from any 500" deer in my pen. My goal realisticly is to produce something there is a market for and fiscally speaking my wallet says stocker bucks. That being said a 500" bred to any of my does would get something likely a bit smaller than daddy-o so an unhealthy freak-sized buck still has market for breeding to smaller genetics as well.

Some will always push the envelope and it is a risk that needs to be weighed on an individual basis. I can't say I would ever be in the breeder arena (at least not 400+ class) but must admit it is intriguing to sit on the sidelines and observe other programs bring forth monsters to the industry.

On the other hand, I think of the anti's when I see a video of a buck seemingly fatigued from a rack. Makes it easier to be satisfied with just yesteryear's nice deer in my pens.



I am not knocking anyone. Just stating envelope pushing has its list of pros and cons.

There are a lot of big buck's out there, a few that will go over 500 this year some may be way over. I like big deer for sure but some of those buck's are not what I am looking for and I would not use them. For me a good buck has to have a nice typical frame that you can see, not guess where it is but see it. Then add the 250+ extra inches and hope they are in the right place to get the 500 and then you have a buck. I think it is important that a buck can handle the antler's that he grow's. If he cant why try to grow them that big or breed with a buck that cant take the weight, several genetic trait's are passed on not just antler related. 600 inch ?? I would have to put a tape to that myself. There are a couple of those large buck's that I do want to use but not because I want to raise 500"+ deer. But I would like to raise nice looking 250"-350" buck's and a 400 incher now and then would be nice.

Its getting to the point that a deer does not even look like a deer. what happened to a frame that had points sticking up in the air off the beam. these deer with just blobs on the head is ugly and that is where freaks come from,points going every direction gives deer farming a bad look to the public

I love the typicals, or typical looking non-typicals. To each his own, but anything past that does not look to me what a deer was created to look like. And if they can't carry on their head what we breed them to grow, then I believe the line has certainly been crossed. To sum: In my opinion, and I haven't seen them all, but I believe Rambo was the most awesome buck to have ever walked this earth!

Sandridge Whitetails I also love the typicals, Rambo, shock and awe, RJ, Red cloud, Arty.

And I also love typical looking non-typicals.

What are the deer industry associations codes & policy regarding animal welfare?

If it becomes a welfare issue,an opinion on if the heads look good or not, or if someone will pay or can afford to shoot one is irrelevant.



Do hunters want domesticated artificial animals,or is this being pushed by breeders?



My experience with red deer is that hunters want a trophy which is attractive & symmetrical,with its rights & three or more royals (but not a mess).

With three point Asian species I cull out anything with extra points.



What sub species of whitetail are these guys from?

Is that a question worth considering?



Cheers Sharkey