We are dealing with EHD. Some of my deer are getting lumps under their jaws between where the V. Sometimes it appears and is gone the next day and comes back later. I'm no biologist or vet but Dr Ables tells in big words that they are from proteins as a result of EHD. Anyone experience this before? Any luck saving deer with this? One doe was looking good the past 4 days with no meds and this morning she was stumbling and had a knot under her jaw. Should have known something last night her buck fawn abandoned her the first few days when we we're filling her full of meds then last night he was with her sister instead. I've never heard anyone say to watch the fawns do stuff like that either. I've got one doe who appears to have gone blind during this ordeal as well. She had a knot under her throat one evening then marble size bloody protein buildups in her eyes the next morning when we put her in the stall. Her eyes are bloodshot, leaking fluid and she appears to be blind now. She looks like a crying zombie. She has been in the barn for a week or better now with limited meds because she freaks out when you try to put her in the chute. She was a sweet deer but just about blind as a bat now. We've got a buck yearling that hasn't ate in 2 days, bloodshot eyes he will let you walk him into the stall like he is on a leash so he is living off of fluids. All of our deer had the PnueVac in the Spring, Fusogard and EHD vaccines and so on etc. Our EHD vaccine we ordered for booster 6wks ago came in tonight so everyone will be getting it tomorrow as well. I've never read of anyone talking about protein buildups under the jaws and in their eyes when talking about EHD and this is our first experience. I'm really curious about these protein buildups though because I've never heard anyone mention them before so our first thought was lump jaw. Thanks Travis
Joined Feb 2013
780 Posts | 1+
Markleville IN
the swelling under the jaw is fluid(water) not really a lump. It is due to either protein loss or a vasculitis resulting in leaky veins due to the virus.
bloodshot eyes and swelling around the eyes was the most common thing we saw.
the blind one likely has swelling around its optic nerve causing the blindness. If she comes out of it the blindness may not be permanent.
All you can do is keep treating with antibiotic and dexamethasone. wish you the best of luck.
bloodshot eyes and swelling around the eyes was the most common thing we saw.
the blind one likely has swelling around its optic nerve causing the blindness. If she comes out of it the blindness may not be permanent.
All you can do is keep treating with antibiotic and dexamethasone. wish you the best of luck.
Agreed, I don't know what DEX does exactly but if you hit them with it at first signs along with Draxxin, you can save most of them. You have to check them every couple hours and at first sign that it's not looking "right", hit em with Dex. I tried the compounded DEX and didn't have much luck with it at all. I use the 3mg/ml, 3 cc dart once every 12 hours, 80% success in turning them around and saving them. Do nothing and maybe 5% will live thru it. GET A FOGGER!!!! It's the best investment you will ever make, I promise. You can break the cycle, the midge is coming from a pond or mud hole somewhere close or in your pen, fog it and they will be gone. I lost over 50 deer a couple years ago within 10 days and the day I fogged the pond next to the pen, It stopped it completely. Good luck and don't wait on the fogger, every day you wait is probably another 1-5 dead deer, save one buck and its paid for. Good luck
Joined Feb 2013
780 Posts | 1+
Markleville IN
that's interesting because the people in the south claim the 24mg dex is the absolute ticket. I hate for anyone to get their hopes up by saying one certain thing works, but I tried it all when we had it 2 years ago and absolutely NOTHING worked. Either they had it bad enough they WERE GOING TO DIE or they had it mild and I could help them along. I do not really think that I SAVED any of them. had about 1/3-1/4 that had signs that lived. One doe has diarrhea to this day off and on. She might be the only one I saved but had 2 shooter quality doe fawns and they are pulling her down. Seemed like some had just a tick of it and were fine, I probably did nothing for their survival because they were going to any way!!!
24mg/ml dex just allows you to use a 1cc dart to administer the meds. I find I have much more dart injury/trauma with the heavier 2cc and 3cc darts. I try hard to NOT use them.
my "survive" rate has gone up since I started using compounded dex and draxxin
there is no rhyme or reason to EHDs symptoms, course of the disease, or who survives and who dosen't. Alll you can do is try. If one of the deer on my place even looks crosseyed it gets meds in Aug/Sept/Oct.
my "survive" rate has gone up since I started using compounded dex and draxxin
there is no rhyme or reason to EHDs symptoms, course of the disease, or who survives and who dosen't. Alll you can do is try. If one of the deer on my place even looks crosseyed it gets meds in Aug/Sept/Oct.
Well I hope we save more than 1/3 because nearly all of them have some sort of sign. We fog more than anyone I know and we've sprayed pastures and bottoms with a boom sprayer. We lost the first two in 12hrs. Every deer on our place received 2cc 24mg dex 2cc excede 1cc b12 immediately there after. We ran the questionable ones every day since. The last time we ran we have all their fall vaccines wormer and any breathing heavy got draxxin. The ones with for sure EHD drooled bad. My breeder gets 2cc dex every 3 days excede every 6. We were told excede stays in their system 5-7 days. We was just getting in good shape the past few weeks so we didn't take any chances waiting on clinical signs. He developed swelling yesterday so he's scheduled for daily darting now. Our doe fawns are looking good now. I can't imagine some of the big farms it was a chore holding 16 50-70 pound fawns for vaccines! The biggest one we had to ran through the chute. The two in the barn with bloodshot eyes look terrible. They went down hill very fast. We have got 10mg dex we have been mixing in feed since last Sunday as well as Prim one. Also if you press it you can get 48mg dex. My vet was hesitant because he didn't think it would be stable but said next time we'd get 48mg. It has been a learning experience and all my deer will be re vaccinated in July next year. The deer seem to be on the up swing when they get this swelling under the jaw. I took a week off work and had to go back out of town. So mom sis and our high school helper are doing all this now. Fortunately my sister loves darting deer. I will add draxxin in to our protocal as we just were giving it based on breathing. Thanks for everyone's response so far!
Joined Feb 2013
780 Posts | 1+
Markleville IN
I know this
+Some died with ABSOLUTELY NO SIGNS alive and normal one feeding dead the next.
+If they had swelling in eyes or bloodshot they died within 2 days
+ some no signs but just not themselves, had them linger 10 days
+ if they just got bottle jaw they had a chance
+ if it went to their feet they had a chance
I tried it all and if they didn't respond to initial treatment most died.and off course it will all depend on the stain you have. Ours first was type 6 and did not test any others.This was all 2 yrs ago
+Some died with ABSOLUTELY NO SIGNS alive and normal one feeding dead the next.
+If they had swelling in eyes or bloodshot they died within 2 days
+ some no signs but just not themselves, had them linger 10 days
+ if they just got bottle jaw they had a chance
+ if it went to their feet they had a chance
I tried it all and if they didn't respond to initial treatment most died.and off course it will all depend on the stain you have. Ours first was type 6 and did not test any others.This was all 2 yrs ago
Joined Apr 2014
1,245 Posts | 0+
Greensburg, IN
Try vaccinating your best ones every two weeks from the end of July till about now. Starting the end of July I have darted my breeder bucks weekly with the vaccine in years when the virus was just south of me. Agree with Jerri Lee it kind of depends on which strain you get and where the virus settles in the animal whether they pull through or not and yearly exposure also makes a big difference. Mortalities generally will show a bell curve if they are graphed. The majority die and the virus generally runs its course over a 10-14 day period because of the life cycles of the midge.
I would highly recommend reading Dr Lee Cohnstaedt's writings on the midge.
I would highly recommend reading Dr Lee Cohnstaedt's writings on the midge.
Thanks again. I've got 2 that aren't themselves. I think my sister said 4 had jaw issue. The two in barn are only two w it showing in their eyes. The one doe has been around a week. Is eating drinking. The buck is on day 3 mostly living on lactated ringers. I've still not received vaccine we requested in late July. It's so frustrating how long it takes to get any meds, darts or anything crucial. I've got a ton of stuff on hand but there's always something that runs low. I know what you mean about no signs the biggest healthiest doe I had was the third to die. She acted stressed when we moved so I gave dex and excede and she acted fine next day but 36hrs after giving dex and excede she was dead.
Joined May 2009
2,369 Posts | 0+
Chillicothe, Missouri
With 26 strains of EHD.................In my OPINION it is important that folks remember.....................You can TREAT like hell,Spray like a mad man,Have Pen Fogger system running day n night,Vaccinate every week,Drips Wicks and Potions.............Galore......Get the right strain of EHD and you will find once they get it their DEAD!
We petted and hand fed deer watch em walk away and fall over stone dead! Bottle fed and left one pen and walked to the next and saw fawns just fed lay down and die!
NOT trying to discourage anyone from trying ANYTHING!.....................Just Understand...........SOMETIMES it's just out of our hands and you have done it ALL!
TRUTH .......I hope you have a chance to save your deer and i wish you the BEST
But if your not able to save em all ..................Just don't beat your self up over it! When I started 10 yrs ago I had 11 Deer Farms within 8 miles of me after 2 yrs of the worst EHD anyone had seen around here.............I now have.............3
And alot of them beat themselves up daily about what they could a shoulda done!
Best of Luck
We petted and hand fed deer watch em walk away and fall over stone dead! Bottle fed and left one pen and walked to the next and saw fawns just fed lay down and die!
NOT trying to discourage anyone from trying ANYTHING!.....................Just Understand...........SOMETIMES it's just out of our hands and you have done it ALL!
TRUTH .......I hope you have a chance to save your deer and i wish you the BEST
But if your not able to save em all ..................Just don't beat your self up over it! When I started 10 yrs ago I had 11 Deer Farms within 8 miles of me after 2 yrs of the worst EHD anyone had seen around here.............I now have.............3
And alot of them beat themselves up daily about what they could a shoulda done!
Best of Luck
Joined Feb 2013
780 Posts | 1+
Markleville IN
wayne,
very well said!!!!!
you can beat yourself up but in all likelihood they were going to die no matter what you do.
very well said!!!!!
you can beat yourself up but in all likelihood they were going to die no matter what you do.
Joined Apr 2014
1,245 Posts | 0+
Greensburg, IN
I have noticed a pattern. People who avoid unnecessary seasonal movements of animals onto their farm and whose deer farms set up high on steep hilly timbered ground that don't have other livestock nearby at neighbors etc. are consistently avoiding EHD outbreaks. The female midge needs a blood meal for her eggs and I don't think up a steep hill is part of their natural flight path which is close to the ground. I think they hang out in flatter environments. That's where mud and water generally is and where animals come to drink. Just wondering if anyone else has noticed this.
I know. I expected to loose some especially since it was my first year. I don't have the most expensive herd but I didn't buy anything that come from a doe that hadn't produced 250-300" 2yr olds either so it's not a cheap herd either. Eventually they are livestock and all will all die. It just really slows down my plans for growth. Worst part was doctoring a Complex/Shadow doe then sitting with her watching her die. The most unexpected was the fattest best looking doe dropping dead with no sign. There are some things we will do differently next year for certain. Some things were done differently this year because we could not get all our construction done in our desired time frame. There just some things that I'd never seen anyone ask about on here or heard anyone talk about in person in regards to EHD. I never expected a fawn to abandon it's own mother when she got sick. Every sick deer also has a dry nose. I had never heard of fluids building up under their jaws. I knew signs would be subtle but even though we recognized those things they were never described in anything I had heard about EHD. I litterally came home to deer dieing the first night I was home. I can't fault my family or help because they have never raised deer either so signs were not obvious. Since the barn wasn't ready in the spring the deer were all darted with vaccines. I've got big enough pens with enough cover that this is a pain. Of the last 7 to get darted 4 are dead and 2 are sick, both of one's fawns got sick loosing the buck and one of another's got sick I'd have to look back at my sister's notes to see how long it was between initial and second vaccine and one had been vaccinated before I brought her home last fall. That being said although I am disappointed in the vaccine I do believe it has made a difference. I'm more disappointed with Newport's time frame in figuring out which strain it is. It wouldn't surprise me if it were multiple strains though. It may be excessive but seeing that it isn't as big a deal running them through my barn with fawns as I expected it to be they will be receive all their shots spring summer and fall next year. As for fogging... We fog the pens and everything within 200 yards of our pens... Typically we start early and do the woodline, then the pens, the perimeter and then back to the woodline before calling it quits. I went through a few hundred dollars in chemicals last week trying to knock them out and the midges are still present along the woodline so we are just spending 100% of the time in the pens now. Typically there is a stout breeze so I doubt they can ever be completely eliminated. Again waiting on my fence builder to get to me, but planning on building fence down my entire south property lines and around my pens stout enough to put solid shade cloth all the way around so we have something to spray chemicals on for next year.
Bell970291409884815
I have noticed a pattern. People whose deer farms set up high on steep hilly timbered ground that don't have other livestock nearby at neighbors etc. are consistently avoiding EHD outbreaks. Just wondering if anyone else has noticed this.
My pens are on top of a hill. Beside them is 200yrd slope to a wooded ditch my neighbor couldn't clear that drains both his and my properties. There is probably a 35-45' elevation change. I'd love to spray it with a diesel gas mix and light it on fire... If he'd only sell it lol. He does run cattle so I know that doesn't help. Usually he keeps a good portion of them in the woods further south until hunting season. The prevailing wind is from the south across his pastures so hopefully if I spray shade cloth down my south line it will help. The rest of my pens will be added in the center of my property further uphill and away. They are always thicker under trees especially willows it seems so I'm curious how it would be better to have timbered property. I'm opening mine up for new additions now so I'm thinning mine out more so I can keep a better eye on my deer.
I have noticed a pattern. People whose deer farms set up high on steep hilly timbered ground that don't have other livestock nearby at neighbors etc. are consistently avoiding EHD outbreaks. Just wondering if anyone else has noticed this.
My pens are on top of a hill. Beside them is 200yrd slope to a wooded ditch my neighbor couldn't clear that drains both his and my properties. There is probably a 35-45' elevation change. I'd love to spray it with a diesel gas mix and light it on fire... If he'd only sell it lol. He does run cattle so I know that doesn't help. Usually he keeps a good portion of them in the woods further south until hunting season. The prevailing wind is from the south across his pastures so hopefully if I spray shade cloth down my south line it will help. The rest of my pens will be added in the center of my property further uphill and away. They are always thicker under trees especially willows it seems so I'm curious how it would be better to have timbered property. I'm opening mine up for new additions now so I'm thinning mine out more so I can keep a better eye on my deer.
Joined Feb 2013
780 Posts | 1+
Markleville IN
if you do a search we talked on here 2 years ago about EHD and signs people were seeing.
One thing I have learned is if the nose is dry something is really wrong!
There is no doubt that the most trying time you will have as a deer farmer is if you have to endure a good hit of EHD.
Many tears were shed here. Bottle feds you are attached to, best breeders, best yearling bucks, best does 95% of the time.
It really stinks when you hate to go out because you do not know who will be next and you cant wait for it to freeze.
One thing I have learned is if the nose is dry something is really wrong!
There is no doubt that the most trying time you will have as a deer farmer is if you have to endure a good hit of EHD.
Many tears were shed here. Bottle feds you are attached to, best breeders, best yearling bucks, best does 95% of the time.
It really stinks when you hate to go out because you do not know who will be next and you cant wait for it to freeze.
Jerilee if you can find the posts from the last couple years please post a link. I have read it before so I tried to find it before starting a new thread and was unsucessful.
Well not too many more surprise on who's next we lost our Turning Point yearling last night, he busted his antlers 10 times by end of June and had to cut both main beams cut off, he has over 100" in brows and trash from damaging them so early and he was shut down end of June. Hopefully the buck I got out of his momma this year makes it. We know all but at most 4 adults have it. If they go in easy with the rest of the sick does they get at minimum 2cc dex before letting them out too. Some people say some genetic lines are stronger than others but basically the lines I've heard were the most resilient are the ones struggling the most so it's really all just coincidental. So far the only 3 does that I don't "think" are sick are Rolex grand daughters. So they will probably be next.
Well not too many more surprise on who's next we lost our Turning Point yearling last night, he busted his antlers 10 times by end of June and had to cut both main beams cut off, he has over 100" in brows and trash from damaging them so early and he was shut down end of June. Hopefully the buck I got out of his momma this year makes it. We know all but at most 4 adults have it. If they go in easy with the rest of the sick does they get at minimum 2cc dex before letting them out too. Some people say some genetic lines are stronger than others but basically the lines I've heard were the most resilient are the ones struggling the most so it's really all just coincidental. So far the only 3 does that I don't "think" are sick are Rolex grand daughters. So they will probably be next.
Joined Feb 2013
780 Posts | 1+
Markleville IN
Travis,
Rips you're heart right out when you love your animals. I feel the pain in every word you say. I had to relive it going through the information for the USDA for the ELAP program, now feeling the pain of every word you say. There's nothing worse than watching your animals die even though you do everything you can to prevent or treat it. in three years we have lost 22 animals to end. We lost most of them two years ago it could've been much worse in the whole grand scheme of things I guess that's how you have to look at it . I'm biting my nails because the second week of September is when it has started for us the last two years . I really feel that the weather has been in our favor this year in the Midwest but you just never know
Rips you're heart right out when you love your animals. I feel the pain in every word you say. I had to relive it going through the information for the USDA for the ELAP program, now feeling the pain of every word you say. There's nothing worse than watching your animals die even though you do everything you can to prevent or treat it. in three years we have lost 22 animals to end. We lost most of them two years ago it could've been much worse in the whole grand scheme of things I guess that's how you have to look at it . I'm biting my nails because the second week of September is when it has started for us the last two years . I really feel that the weather has been in our favor this year in the Midwest but you just never know
Joined Apr 2014
1,245 Posts | 0+
Greensburg, IN
Travis
No genetic line is more immune than another. It all boils down to who has been regularly exposed and how often. Take a small bodied deer from south Texas way up north for about 5 years then take it back to the Deep South and it will die in the first EHD out break quicker than an animal that is mostly far northern blood that has been living there and exposed to the virus on a yearly bases.
I would like it if someone would explain why fawns many times escape the virus when their mother don't. I suspect it may be because they are smaller and thier body temps stays lower and doesn't put off the amount of co2 which attracts the midge.
No genetic line is more immune than another. It all boils down to who has been regularly exposed and how often. Take a small bodied deer from south Texas way up north for about 5 years then take it back to the Deep South and it will die in the first EHD out break quicker than an animal that is mostly far northern blood that has been living there and exposed to the virus on a yearly bases.
I would like it if someone would explain why fawns many times escape the virus when their mother don't. I suspect it may be because they are smaller and thier body temps stays lower and doesn't put off the amount of co2 which attracts the midge.
Our bottle fawns that got it never quit drinking fluids, they got to a point they wouldn't drink much but never completely quit drinking and we never gave anything over room temperature and we quit letting them go outside due to the heat for a week or so. I also kept ice packs down around them covered with towels. We had ours almost completely weaned now they all get fluids 3x day from bottle lol. Seems the biggest healthiest deer in pens are the worst, I assume because they fight it longer without symptom.