Ol' Stud -vs- New Kid ?

Wayne, These are all good questions I think breeder should make room in thier herd for both the old and the new.



You can't go wrong with a proven old timer but it is always fun to gamble on the next big thing.

With all that said I find it hard to spend $5000+ on a straw of semen from a buck that is not proven when I can spend the same (or less) on one that is proven. After all the end market is the hunting ranches and I don't see how you can keep money in the bank when you are spending 5 to 10k on semen and only getting 3 to 5k out of your shooters.

Wayne, good questions. From your breeding program looks like you like big frames just like i do



I tend to lean toward the old school bucks. My thinking behind it is that they was doing the job when the there wasn't any other bucks doing it. They were producing big deer when the bloodlines were alot weaker.. We are going to AI alot of our new bloodlines back to BW SUNNY this fall.



For the questions on the yearlings. I have seen some of the prettiest yearlings here lately turn into some of the ugliest two year olds .. I think two year olds give a good indication of what kind of look a buck is going to have.



I will pick the old men that are proven producers over the new young up and comers anyday!!

I would use some old and some new genetics just to change it up sometimes. A prime example of changing it up sometimes ( Big Show on the Flees farm). As far as part 2 of your topic, no to buck 2, and if buck 3 was never any wider at 1 and 2 than he is at 3, I would pick buck 1, the damaged yearling. Of course, I am assuming that he wasn't damaged more than most yearlings can damage themselves. Wayne, this topic has so many scenarios it could go on and on. That snow must really be deep out there today. I am ready for spring! Eldon

Wayne you have to find a hobby to fill yur time so you dont think things like this!! lol

I think for guys like most of us on a budget would go for the old school proven that can be bought reasonable.I myself went with a little of both but 80% is old school.I think we all know that not everybody can play the game with the bigger guys as far as tryin to make the next super buck and 99% percent of the bucks go to stocker anyway.A guy can go with proven stuff and make bucks year in and year out the ranches want and have no problem moving them and pay the bills without breaking the bank on some hot newcomer when as you know most hot newcomers will be old school in a couple years and then the working man with a few deer will be able to afford to use it.There are so,so so many 2 year olds out there owned by farmers without big names that are not broadcasted all over the deer world.There are many that are better looking size wise with length,spread and mass without the big pedigree that you see some people throw out there even on this site.Just because on paper they are supposed to be the best alot of times it does not turn out that way!!!

im doing 50% for now no high end semen!. big if i learn more ,AI once i see, done went to goat class any gonna build AI barn DC

Wayne, we too have pondered this question. We will be using Reno in our program this next fall. As far as marketablity, the "current lines" will bring the money however, the old school lines will build your herd. I say a combination of both should work for everyones program

Reno....... thats a proven deer........ just look at our girl Tran

Mp, also gets my att! once i fel comfortable,MP has high respect among, DC DC

As the older lines start to get harder to come by as semen runs out they may rebound in price as well right now some of those lines are just to common everyone has them.



but if your just raising buck for the hunting ranchs you can't go wrong with them.

I think deerfarming is going to have some changes the next few years. With high grain prices and shooter prices below average it is going to become more important to become more efficient in the way we raise our deer. Good animal husbandry, cutting any extra cost and most important genetics that will produce on a consistant basis.



We are shooting alot of two year old bucks which allows us to cut cost of production. We save on a year of feed and have alot less mortality. It is also a much quicker return on your investment. All of that said, you need to be raising two year olds that average 170-180. That means breeding with bucks that are maturing faster.

Kurt, I could not agree more that is spot on. I know just in the last few months my feed has gone up about $40 per ton and the grain price just keep climing. being efficient in the key.

I read everyone's posts multiple times and thought about what everyone has said so far for a while before I decided to post on this topic. I hesitate to post because I fear some will say, here goes another promo for Roger's stuff. But I guess my opinion is best shown by how I actual am doing things at our place. I don't just say one thing and do another to throw folks off track from what we are really doing here. I openly share my program so here goes.



I do totally agree that in today's markets and with today's cost structures we have to become more productive. One way is as has been said by Kurt. Early maturing bucks so we can turn them into money sooner.



I do also totally agree that some of the "old timer" breeder bucks can be used to create a strong foundation for anyone's doe herd. I consider some of the best TRUE old timers as being bucks like Poncho, Buster, Thunder, Patrick, PA Geronimo, Max, and Sundance. I don't say there isn't more but those are some that come to mind.

What I would consider the next generation of old timers is bucks like Bucky, Reno, Blazer, Maxbo, and Highroller.

(NOTE: None of these bucks were listed in any specific order)



I think that each persons own herd program desires has to be evaluated when making choices for what bucks to use for breeding which does.

I feel using some of the true old timers and some of the next generation old timers can be a great tool for creating a strong foundation of does while still creating animals with value in today's markets as well.

But I also feel that using today's "young guns" who are descendants of the old timers is not only a good tool for creating a foundation doe, but can also be a GREAT tool for creating the early maturing bucks today's cost structures need.



Here we go with the unintended promo part I warned everyone about

For instance our womb brothers Updraft and Downdraft.

These 2 boys were created using specific animals that I targeted as being some of the very best old timers in the country in my opinion. Not just the males but the females as well. Specifically I targeted Poncho ( A superior sire through his sons but more importantly his daughters ) and Pebbles ( A superior producer with her sons produced, but again more importantly her daughters and their daughters and so on)



Using these 2 true old timers Poncho and Pebbles along with Buster (another true old timer with superior production in his daughters) and then adding the next generation of old timers, Bucky and a doe called Red#32 (a Buster daughter) and then again adding the next generation of producers after that like Bucky Jr and Big Guy we created not only a line of old time production but a line bred predictability to the "young guns". We are already seeing that the underrated buck, Bucky Jr is producing through his daughters. The most famous and most recent being Cardiac Kid. It is my belief that we will see this same trend in the next 2 to 4 years from Big Guy's daughters as well.

It is also my belief that in the years ahead we will see this same trend with young guns like both Updraft and Downdraft through their daughters and granddaughters.

I have always believed and have always said the true strength of anyone's breeding program is in their does. I don't and never have bred to produce a big buck. I instead breed to produce the next generation of superior producing does. My choice for how to accomplish this was by targeting specific old timers and line breeding for maximum predictability.



I can demonstrate this by showing how our 2 "young guns" Updraft and Downdraft carry the predictability from their ancestors.



Poncho's antler characteristics were heavy mass that carried all the way out to the end of his beams.

Buster carried very long tines with better than 5x5 mainframe each year and his daughters are known for throwing the extras up high off the G2's and G3's

Compare that to Updraft with his extremely long tines, very heavy mass all the way through his beams, and the extras up high on the G2's and G3's that go up and out. And clean around the bases which is good because hunters don't want to pay for those inches.

Now compare Downdraft to the other influence or predictability built into this breeding. (Bucky and Bucky Jr.)

Downdraft, like Bucky and Bucky Jr has the up tines that lay out and back. Long tines, and a flatter mainbeam profile. Downdraft even has the characteristic looking G2 on the right side and the extra point coming off the front of the mainbeam between the left brow and the left G2. He also not only has mainbeams flatter in profile, but the left mainbeam also continues to go outward as it comes forward and has the same characteristic tilt or twist to it that Bucky Jr had on the same side.



My point to all these comparisons is that in antler looks the young guns are carrying the same very detailed traits as their older ancestors. And being as how they descend down from specific line breeding I see this as no accident. I truly believe that their production will be of the same high level as their ancestors as well. And that will again be no accident.



So as I see it, using these "young guns" in one's own breeding program who are the products of this very specific line breeding of "old timers" will insure the very best in production in both bucks and more importantly does, who will carry on the great production levels we have seen over the many years from the "old timers" of yesterday.



Also we have added the early maturing factor needed for cost effective production in today's markets by using the youngest generation of highly bred sires and dams. This was also accomplished by selectively line breeding not only a buck with large antlers, but a buck with early maturing tendencies such as Bucky Jr and Big Guy. Both of whom reached their maximum potential and are showing their offspring are reaching maximum potential by early ages. Again Updraft who reached 268" by age 2 and yet continued to grow in size to 317" by age 3. And Downdraft who took the cleaner route with a 225" score at age 3.

If all your bucks could reach these sizes by age 2 and 3 how much could each farm save in feed, testing, and vet bills not to mention pen spaced saved.



Again I am sorry this sounded like a promo for our animals. It really wasn't my intent. My intent was to demonstrate how the old timers of the past had superior production and definitely have a place in today's programs. But I hope that I also showed that if bred correctly the "young guns" can actually move your programs forward at an even greater rate using the predictability and early maturing factor bred into them today.

This similar comparison can be made using Angus/Max/Maxbo/Maxbo Ranger/ and pick a direction from there, or some of the other old timers like Patrick, Sundance, and PA Geronimo and their descendants if they are line bred the way I described ours are bred above for predictability and early maturing.



I will assume that some will argue that cost of some of the semen and bred does and fawns from the young guns in the industry is cost prohibitive to many in the business and for this reason it is better to use the old timers who can be had for less money.

Again everyone has to find what works best for their own program. If it works for you then it surely isn't wrong.

That said, if spending more now to get a deeper bred animal sooner results in a faster rate of return in your offspring from hunt bucks grown and selling breeding stock, then maybe it isn't cost prohibitive to use the young guns.

I'm just saying it is all.

Again, and I want to stress this, everyone has to do what works for them.