Who would you breed with !

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Sharkey I agree with you for the most part, but if/when you see this buck I am talking about you will see what I mean. I would not breed my hole herd to a buck like this but I would take a gamble on him with a doe or to and I believe most of you on here would as well (even you Roger) This buck I speak of has a strong bottom side (Flees) it is the sire of him that is the unknown gamble. Just wait I think you will see what I mean in a few days.
 
I agree some what with all the comments.



But we have to look at the current market.







Look at Deer ads and Whitetail Exchange at live deer for sale, the no name or little list of popular name sirs or dams in the deer’s pedigree. The seller can’t give them away or get decent price for his animal.



If you look at the top sales and med level sales in past auctions, sales on Whitetail Exchange and others the same names always come in to play in the pedigree

Waldvogel Foundation

Sipes Foundation

Griffith Brothers Foundation

Flees Foundation

Borntrager Foundation

Borkholder Foundation

etc:



Buyers will always dictate the market and as long as these lines are bringing in the top money the majority of sellers will give them what they want.



If a new deer farmer starts out with trying to create the great next bloodline without using established lines then it will almost certain be the death penalty for them. (With the way things cost these days you would have to have an endless supply of cash to sustain the years it would take to accomplish this goal form the start.) You have to ask yourself am I going to start out gamble my investment of my whole operation on a hope and a dream these no name does will create me the next great bloodline or do I start out with does that have established marketable pedigrees?



My thought is that as a new farmer I need to build off established foundations and overtime work to hopefully one day creating that next great bloodline. It will take reputation, success, acceptance and marketing over a period of time for the majority to buy into my hard work. ;)
 
Randy, I agree. There is another buck in OK that I know for a fact several big farmers are breeding with. They think they know the pedigree but haven't been able to DNA him. Sometimes you just can't help it. Big is big:D
 
Earlier in this thread I posted some faces is all. I said I would like to comment but figured I shouldn't so I stay out of the line of fire. This topic is a lose, lose situation since everyone has their own opinion and I doubt anyone will change their opinion. Which is fine, as long as no one gets hurt in the process. Everyone should have and is entitled to their own opinion.



That said I want to commend ahiggins on another great post. You really seem like you have your ducks in a row down there in La.



Folks need to forget totally whether or not the industry needs to diversify itself. Forget whether or not you approve of all the "big guys" in the industry. Forget whether or not there is some "no name" doe out there who really produces well.

Bottom line is the bottom line. At the end of the day is your business in the black or in the red?

Some guys, and I am NOT saying those of you all posting here, but some guys do come on the forums and complain about how they aren't making any money in this business. But yet they don't run their farms like a business. It doesn't make business sense to try and reinvent the wheel. At least not until you have established yourself the way ahiggins said.

Do I play with crosses that are unknown to the industry? Yes.

Do I take those crosses and advertise them? No.

Do I try and sell them at the sales? No.

Why not? because it doesn't make business sense.

Will I stop playing with my own little crosses? No. Because I am a deer breeder. I breed deer based on specific factors that I look at. I do keep the current market trends in mind for the majority of what I do here, but I am first and foremost a deer breeder. I own 2 twin sisters who I feel are rock stars, but I don't talk about them because they don't pay the bills. I have other deer here who pay (or at least try to pay) the bills.

I would be very interested in seeing this buck number 5 you guys are talking about. In fact if he carries some breeding in him on the bottom side that matches with what I look for then I may be very interested in him. But will I be breeding him to my Updraft and Downdraft sister or my Bucky/Little Pebbles doe? Doubt it.

I have to make money in this business or go home. I can't afford to breed my best does, and yes my best "market" does to some unknown entity and hope I can defy the odds. I am just a small time guy fighting to make the best of it and have some fun trying.

I share an awful lot of the things we do here with pretty much everyone. Something I need to cut back on. But I enjoy raising deer and talking about deer.



I am a deer breeder.

I am a business man. All be it not the best business man, but still a business man I try to be:p

At the end of the day I try to be in the black and not in the red.

But first and foremost I am a deer breeder.
 
It would be differant for every farm. For me I would use the buck that I like his look the best. I am a small farm and my end result will be shooter's. No one will want to buy breeding stock from me even if they are out of the top line's. To many of the big name farms out there with plenty of animals to sell. If a farm like mine was to use the top end high $$$$ semen I would go broke fast. I have to use the best that I can knowing that I am just selling shooter's no mater how good they may turn out. For me there are plenty of good buck's out there that I can get semen from for under 500.00 that will help me. I buy bucks that are 30in beams 6x6+ main frame and 24in inside and every now and then semen from a yearling that I think will be great and try to get it before the price is out of my range.
 
:confused:rog, wont last to long in okla shooter market or semen wont last only my opinion coarse some will try, not a good idea could go broke~ hope im wrong, DC
 
IndependenceRanch said:
Earlier in this thread I posted some faces is all. I said I would like to comment but figured I shouldn't so I stay out of the line of fire. This topic is a lose, lose situation since everyone has their own opinion and I doubt anyone will change their opinion. Which is fine, as long as no one gets hurt in the process. Everyone should have and is entitled to their own opinion.



That said I want to commend ahiggins on another great post. You really seem like you have your ducks in a row down there in La.



Folks need to forget totally whether or not the industry needs to diversify itself. Forget whether or not you approve of all the "big guys" in the industry. Forget whether or not there is some "no name" doe out there who really produces well.

Bottom line is the bottom line. At the end of the day is your business in the black or in the red?

Some guys, and I am NOT saying those of you all posting here, but some guys do come on the forums and complain about how they aren't making any money in this business. But yet they don't run their farms like a business. It doesn't make business sense to try and reinvent the wheel. At least not until you have established yourself the way ahiggins said.

Do I play with crosses that are unknown to the industry? Yes.

Do I take those crosses and advertise them? No.

Do I try and sell them at the sales? No.

Why not? because it doesn't make business sense.

Will I stop playing with my own little crosses? No. Because I am a deer breeder. I breed deer based on specific factors that I look at. I do keep the current market trends in mind for the majority of what I do here, but I am first and foremost a deer breeder. I own 2 twin sisters who I feel are rock stars, but I don't talk about them because they don't pay the bills. I have other deer here who pay (or at least try to pay) the bills.

I would be very interested in seeing this buck number 5 you guys are talking about. In fact if he carries some breeding in him on the bottom side that matches with what I look for then I may be very interested in him. But will I be breeding him to my Updraft and Downdraft sister or my Bucky/Little Pebbles doe? Doubt it.

I have to make money in this business or go home. I can't afford to breed my best does, and yes my best "market" does to some unknown entity and hope I can defy the odds. I am just a small time guy fighting to make the best of it and have some fun trying.

I share an awful lot of the things we do here with pretty much everyone. Something I need to cut back on. But I enjoy raising deer and talking about deer.



I am a deer breeder.

I am a business man. All be it not the best business man, but still a business man I try to be:p

At the end of the day I try to be in the black and not in the red.

But first and foremost I am a deer breeder.



I Think We all need to keep that in mind we're all deer breeders but as business men to be sucsessfull we need to be open to the ever changing market,Our end Market and our bottom line but with an eye on the future and to most importantly to me be DIVERSIFIED meaning don't put all your eggs in one basket if you can keep from it! I think this is a "GOOD discussion and should help eveyone see a little of what the other guy sees on his or her side of the fence! I hope more will join in with thier thoughts:)
 
I guess i will chime in here as well.



When it comes down to me choosing breeding stock i have chosen marketable sires. Not only marketable pedigrees but animals that are being marketed themselves in flyers, catologs, and auctions. The large unporven yearlings i have bred with the last two years. i not only bought do to pedigree and size but weather or not the owner was marketing that animal or not. Ask anyone i have boaught from or have inquired about semen or bred stock they will tell you it the first question i ask.



Roger is right you need to look at it from a business stand point. I gamble young sires to save money and hope for the stocks to sky rocket. But i look at it from a collective marketing stand point. A joint adventure between buyer and seller. When i advertise there animal and they advertise there animal it is twice the marketing at half the cost to both of us. A win win. So the fact that i know im going to see that animal no matter how young or unproven in a magazine spread or at auction it takes away some of that risk. Because what is the pupose of breeding with an animal that no one knows. A comparison " if i fire up a business in a shopping center, the people are going to be there out of convience, i only spend money to get them in the door. If i open up shop out on some country road, were no one ever goes i have to spend money to get people out of there way posibly to even find me." I see it the same in deer farming.



So go with the maketable sire team up with people in your advertising and watch your genetics and possibly bottom line grow!



thanks,
 
I really should have minded my own business and stayed out of this. I said right away it was a lose, lose situation.
 
sorry but i think true! just okies opinion:eek: far i concerned done open the worms since you got in top 30 seems you sometimes help, but since more concerned about the almighty dollar just ones opinion, sdmx fk md you know who ass to kiss, qas a complete tutn off others will soon catch on wone be long, you also no when to seems all you do market your ranch! since yall know all by now. i should stop posting! just okie, maybe not but you sure over do it! seems to me dollar does help! seems quite a dwq, rhey only help if it dows rhem good in facr i know dew crooks and the hungty all you mwwd to do is study thrt pobt i thoink they short lived and about run out~ last post, for sure! DC
 
DC, I don't thank that fair, Roger is proud of his deer but heck arnt we all and Roger is always avaliable to help any time. I have called on him myself for advice at times and hes always willing to share you may not always like what he has to say but he will give it to you straight.



Just my opinion for what is worth.
 
If you think about the deer business is similar to selling cars....



You have that dealer that sells Ferrari’s one selling ford, another selling Chevy, another selling Toyota, another selling KIA and someone selling used cars:D



They all cater to there client base which is based on the custumers budget and opinion, the KIA dealer isn’t going to try and sell you a Ferrari because that’s not his market.



There all different right! Right but they all have 1 thing in common every car will get you from point A to point B.



While we all try to cater to our market selling what we think our costumers want, each is unique. But we all have something in common and that’s the love of deer.
 
Just to clear up a few things, but first, I honestly don't understand why this is such a taboo subject because I've never suggested that we shouldn't breed with the popular bloodlines. Oh well.



The first point I want to make VERY CLEAR, is that I do breed with top end deer, and I'm not suggesting in ANYWAY whatsoever that we should go away from the top lines. I have Waldvogel, Flees, Strawser,Dice, Sipes... you name it (Shadow, Maxbo, Poncho, Romeo, Reno Banshee... etc). And I rely on many of these genetics for my diversity and power. I also respect and like all of the owners of these lines of deer.

However, I also have quite a few does from Barkley and Cole Young... that quite frankly have been killing it with huge frames for over 10 years now. These does are not what I would personally consider "no-name", because a whole lot of people in the industry know how incredibly well they have been producing... not to mention they are great people to deal with! Frankly, breeding with their does has put our farm very much in the "black". And we are grateful for that.

I'm not trying to make this a commercial for my breeding style or line or whatever, but I can tell you that a whole bunch of very good deer farmers have been more than excepting of this "new" line. Others have not and I don't begrudge them their opinions.

I'm not saying that we should reinvent the wheel by any means, we all need to have strong foundations for our herds, and I would absolutely recommend using all of the most popular lines out there. I do however think that some people in the industry should be a little more open to stepping off of the beaten path a little... that's all.



And I'm sorry, but I don't know how anyone can honestly say that we don't need a little more diversity in our industry.



Again, I'm not saying in any way that we should go away from what's grown our industry into such a strong and exciting endeavor. Sorry to beat a dead horse but I want to be very clear on that point.
 
barkley cole, and young who i plan on starting over seems good investmenr seems preserves want maybe ill just piddle. who knows, thanks what i did learn dc
 
You know i dont take much to personal on these forums because im sure if we were all sitting at a table some where drinking a beer we would all come to some understanding. This understanding is hard to come by when typing on these threads. i think this is a good thread and great conversation. Try not to turn it into something other wise.



As far as marketing your animals on here. Why not what a great inexpencive way to brodcast yourself. All you have to do is get on here, build some relationships, have some integrity, and possibly move some deer. It cost you nothing just be yourself. More people should take advantage of this. Just my opinion
 
I agree Matt. This forum put Texas Tea on the map for us simply by posting a few pictures... can't beat that for quick and easy marketing!

I too think this is a great conversation, but written text can always be more difficult to discern the writer's true intentions... that's why I felt that I had to really spell out where I was coming from.
 

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