Sores on fawns mouths!!!!

I was just wondering if it were an allergic reaction to the bottle cleaner....

Because I know you guys aren't cutting corners and trying very hard, but it seems to me of a reaction to something more than a disease... but that is just a guess from states away without seeing.

Were they all in the same area/pen/ ...What connection do they all have?

Hey we may never quite know what the problem is but without the results from the vet I'd think you'd want to cover all bases . It could be an allergic reaction to something and I'm assuming AppleCreek will try something a bit different with cleaning of bottles and nipples and maybe even change nipples if that could be the problem . The Fusogaurd may or may not help but it surely can't hurt either . Is it a treatment, I wouldn't rely on it for that . Is it a good vaccine to at least help or insure against future outbreaks , gosh I'd think so . I'm thinking the thing they all have in common is the ground . They're all on the same ground when born whether in the same pens or people bringing in the bacteria from one pen to the other on their shoe's or things like that but I'm thinking it's in the ground and that's how they're contacting it . If you look close at the last paragraph in Isaac's post on necrobacillosis you'll see the vaccines have been used to help treat outbreaks and again it surely wouldn't hurt . I'm thinking for those with the sores I'd hit them hard with something . My first choice would be penicillin and streptomycin covering both gram negitive as well as gram positive organisms . Tetracyline may be good too , but I just hate those drugs that burn or sting that hard on small critters. Heck Draxxin might work well too ! Maybe sulfamerazine or sulfamethazine would work for treating fusobacterium too .What ever it is I sure hope all bases are covered and it doesn't continue , no one needs crap like that going on . Good Luck AppleCreek hope all goes well . Just a thought ..

Hang in there ...

The not knowing is the worst...We all care for these critters so much when they are counting on us ...Sometimes it really sucks not knowing how to help...

Good luck Apple Creek, I really enjoy Isaac's posts. I have learned from them, and really look forward to them. The size of your operation amazes me. I have 12 on the bottle at this time and thats about all this ole Mountaineer wants. I know you will get this problem figured out. Like I said, Good luck. We're pulling for ya. Allen

Hey. Just an update on where we are with the fawns with infected mouths.



As Isaac mentioned before, we took a culture of the pustuled lesions last Friday and the vet sent it right in along with a blood collection. We were told we would have the results back by Monday.



In the meantime, we're treating with 2cc SQ of penicillin as our vet suggested. Thanks to Wooden Acres, we vaccinated 47 hd of our bottle fawns Friday with Fusoguard and have a shipment of the stuff coming in on Monday when the rest of the bottle babies will be vaccinated as well. This is only a temporary step though, until we can identify exactly what the heck we're dealing with. We've found no sign of the disease out in the fawning pens as yet, but are keeping a sharp eye out. When we do know the disease we're dealing with and the strain, we will then have an autogenus vaccine made up for our particular problem. If the culture comes back as a fusobacteria, we will continue to vaccinate with Fusoguard for 28 days since it takes 28 days to make up the new vaccine. I know Fusoguard some from the sheep world and know it only covers about 13 strains of Fusobacieria. There are many more out there. If our strain comes back as one covered by Fusoguard, then we're in luck. If not, we'll go for the custom-made vaccine.



One thought from Robbie, about our problem being a staph. That is a very good possibility we had not considered. Thanks for opening our eyes to that possibility.



As for the infected fawns, they as feeling no adverse affects to this disease. Their appetites are good, and they're up and bucking all over the place. I should mention that the fawn we too to the vet, and had her lip smashed to get the pus out for the culture had her feelings hurt. Other than that she acts great.



Will keep you posted. -Randy

As I told Scott when I talked to him on the phone we take samples of the cases of necro we have before we administer anitbiotics, we use a sterile swab and then store it in the freezer untill we need the next batch, this gives us a farm specific vaccine that has the current pathogens on the farm. I belive that in making the vaccine for different farms the have found 30+ diff strains of the bacteria. Dr. Manuel Chirino at the University of Saskatchewan (Boo Huskies, York Lions RULE)is our guy but I'm sure there would be others at other big Vet. and agriculture schools. I was told by Manuel that the best samples are taken from the lining of the lesion not from the puss , most of the bacteria in the puss is dead. For example, if you have a lump on the outside of the jaw and you lance it to drain it , flush it with sterilized water ( 1 gallon boiled for 10 min. add 1 tsp. unscented bleach at 5 min.) I have a squeeze bottle with a flex neoprene hose. Take your sample from the lining of the lump, using a sterile swab, rub with some pressure with the side of the lump between your finger and the swab trying to get some skin cells to sluff off on to the swab will give you a better sample. After all visible traces of infection are gone I rince the pocket with betadine ,work the edges rubbing them to loosen any goobers ( scientific term), keep flushing with betadine until clean, medicate.... on cases where I have to cut and flush I now prefer Draxxin, and a long acting antibiotic in combination.

Randy - I hope it isn't, but if it turns out to be, I am glad that I brought it to your attention. Good luck.

Isaac,



What did you guys end up finding out? What was causing this?

Currently we are still waiting for the culture to come back, but the swelling and the white puss pockets are going down....Im sure Isaac will keep you posted. We are grateful for all the information and advice we received.

By the way, all of our infected fawns are doing great. Most of the pustules are completely gone and the fawns are happy. We'll still quarentine them for another 2 weeks just to make sure.



Well, the results of our culture came back. The cause of our problem was a Pasteurella bacteria. It was listed as a "rare gram negative bacillus". The EHD test was negative, though there were no symptoms of EHD. Blood tests won't be back for a couple of days yet. Luckily the infective agent was not a Fusobacteria, not a Staph infection and not Soremouth. Shunked us all on that one. (We did find that Cervids do get Soremouth though!)



Most of us know Pasteurella from pneumonia. It resides in the lungs waiting for the immune system to become compromised and then attacks. It is usually a very opportunistic bacteria. The question is, how did this bacteria from the lungs get a start in the mouth and on the outside of the nose and muzzle of our bottle fed fawns? We know that these fawns are cutting teeth, but there were no lesions around the wounds from arupting (sp?) teeth. Only up high in the inside of the lip and out on the muzzle. We're still ruminating on that one.



The report did say that the culture was resistant to Penicillin, Sulfas (Albon) and tetracycline (Tetradura & LA200). These are exactily the antibiotics I would have counted on since they are good against gram positive and negative diseases. The report did say that Ceftiofurs, (Naxcel, Exceede (sp?)) would work very well. Learned something on that one. Chuck one more into the old bag of tricks eh?



Thanks for all your help. You helped save our bacon.



Call us anytime if we can ever be of service.



- Randy Gottfredson

Good job Apple Creek, Randy you called for the pen. and again you were right on! Goes to show ya that some of the old "FADING" drugs are still useful. Pen. has been around a long time and has been replaced by the newer hot rod drugs but in my opinion is still very useful! ZZ

Yikes ,when I think of Pasturella I'm thinking respiratory viruse , shipping fever , lots of tranportation movement among critters , big weather changes , stock yards and crap like that . Hey even if it's a strain resistant to penicillin you gained much needed ground on it and it's good sometimes to switch every 3 to 4 days on meds anyway . Gosh we learn something new every day don't we ? Just a thought .

Wooden acres said:

Isaac, I just talked to your Dad and Randy and I'm thinking it's Fusobacterium necrophorum and I'd treat with Penicillin combined with Streptomycin and that should cover both gram negitive as well as gram positive organisms. Also vaccinate with Fusogard 2cc per fawn. Fusogard is a Fusobacterium Necrophorum bacterin meaning a vaccine made from bacteria. Get the newborns vaccinated ASAP with the 2cc of Fusogard. I wouldn't raise fawns without it !! You local vet should have some but if your Dad can't get any fast enough I have some here and I'm only 30-40 minutes from you ..Just my opinion .

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Do you give the shot in the muscle or under skin