We all know the QDMA has taken its stand regarding our industry. They can try to qualify it all they want, but we know what it means. I encourage all preserve owners/managers to make your clients aware that the QDMA is aiming to take away their freedom to hunt at your ranches! Be informed, and stand on the evidence. I believe (based on what I read on the QDMA forum) that they will try to energize their members around this issue, and we need to be combatting that from every angle.
Just a couple of observations.
In looking over the QDMA forum, there have been quite a few negative posts, but if you look it is just a few very vocal posters. There have even been several of their forum members that had shown support or indifference to our industry.
When deer farmers go to the QDMA forum and post civilly, and it seems to be heard. In one instance, a deer farmer posted quotes from MI DNR about the CWD case in MI and the link to taxidermy, and may have opened some eyes. Maybe education is the best approach.
I do agree with making the QDMA "sponsors" aware of the issue, but I think that gloating in the results (on there forum) is not productive.
I would suggest that eveyone read the QDMA's primary concerns with the deer breeding industry. To say the least it is very weak, and admittedly just their opinions. A couple of issues become very appent. First we are privately owned livestock, not wildlife. Secondly, they claim to be a non-trophy organization, but they complain about large antlered bucks. They also complain that few or any of their members will have the oportunity to shoot/kill/hunt any of these animals.
It really appears that it come down to the common two basic evils, money and envy.
Ray Favero
In looking over the QDMA forum, there have been quite a few negative posts, but if you look it is just a few very vocal posters. There have even been several of their forum members that had shown support or indifference to our industry.
When deer farmers go to the QDMA forum and post civilly, and it seems to be heard. In one instance, a deer farmer posted quotes from MI DNR about the CWD case in MI and the link to taxidermy, and may have opened some eyes. Maybe education is the best approach.
I do agree with making the QDMA "sponsors" aware of the issue, but I think that gloating in the results (on there forum) is not productive.
I would suggest that eveyone read the QDMA's primary concerns with the deer breeding industry. To say the least it is very weak, and admittedly just their opinions. A couple of issues become very appent. First we are privately owned livestock, not wildlife. Secondly, they claim to be a non-trophy organization, but they complain about large antlered bucks. They also complain that few or any of their members will have the oportunity to shoot/kill/hunt any of these animals.
It really appears that it come down to the common two basic evils, money and envy.
Ray Favero
Great post, Dr. Favero. On the same topic, one of the guys on the QDMA forum said that he was physically threatened by one of the "newbies". If that was one of us, please don't do that. I have had some good discussions over there, and I think that the people on the sidelines just watching are being informed. If we don't do it right, we are shooting ourselves in the foot.
A question for the preserve guys: what percentage of the deer killed in your facility are tested for CWD? The question was posed over there, and I answered it the best I could, but I would like to know more facts (knowledge is power). What is required? Do you go above and beyond what is required? What would you say is your rate of escapes/outside kills? This industry, when people do what they are supposed to do, is helping to prevent CWD, but that doesn't mean we can't police ourselves even more! Do you pay for the testing the same way I do for deer from the farm here in PA?
Any info would be appreciated, but remember this is a public forum, and I suspect everything we write here will be monitored.
A question for the preserve guys: what percentage of the deer killed in your facility are tested for CWD? The question was posed over there, and I answered it the best I could, but I would like to know more facts (knowledge is power). What is required? Do you go above and beyond what is required? What would you say is your rate of escapes/outside kills? This industry, when people do what they are supposed to do, is helping to prevent CWD, but that doesn't mean we can't police ourselves even more! Do you pay for the testing the same way I do for deer from the farm here in PA?
Any info would be appreciated, but remember this is a public forum, and I suspect everything we write here will be monitored.
Joined Oct 2009
3,165 Posts | 1+
upstate ny
I believe here in ny if you are not an accredited herd you have to test 10% of your herd per year.
Joined Apr 2009
1,485 Posts | 0+
Vaughn, MT 59487
In Montana we test any animal 16 months or older that dies. Doesn't matter how it died we shoot for 100% of all dead animals. The State is now talking about going to 12 months or older. We pay for all testing costs which is now at $70.00 per head. Most farms have been in the program sinse 2000. This cost puts on just under $2.00 a pound on the meat end of the deer production cost which renders deer slaughter worthless to the deer meat producer as anyone can see.
Here in SD you have to CWD test 100% of your herd if they are over 1 year old and to be able to be imported here they have to come from a herd that has been CWD monitored for at least 5 years. SD was one of the first in the country to start the CWD monitoring system. The cost is around $90 a head if you take it to the vet and have them pull the lymph nodes and brain stem, ship it and then test. If you ARE NOT brucellosis or TB accredited you must also test anything that will be moved to another farm even if it's only 2 miles away. I think its safe to say that now days deer in breeding facilities are the healthiest and most monitored animals in the country. These animals see a doctor and are monitored for there health more then most people. When wild populations over lap like whitetails and rutting bucks it would be nothing for a disease to travel through the wild herds several hundred miles a year just in deer to deer contact. These diseases have been here for hundreds of years in the wild and the only way to get rid of them is to kill every wild deer, Hmm, I guess maybe that's what they are trying to do, no deer, no hunting. I've watched our states deer population plumit in places because of the OVER harvest of does due to the preachings of these so called "biologists" in the QDMA. Our state is now giving away free proccessing for does that are donated to the food banks, now people are shooting does about like predators and prairie dogs. It's safe to say that the deer population is maybe 25% of what it was 10 years ago on the public land. One of my best friends owns one of the largest deer proccessing facilities in the state and he said that probably close to as much as 15-20% of the antlerless deer brought in are button bucks and some older bucks that have already shed during the late antlerless season. It's safe to say that for every adult bred doe they do harvest they are also taking out one buck fawn on average that's already in the doe that would be available for future hunters, now the buck numbers are going backwards and more and more people are settling on just shooting another doe because they can't find any good bucks. With the way these guys are trying to manage deer, high fence farms and ranches are the only places that are going to have a huntable population 10 years from now. I believe more and more people are also seeing this and that's why this industry is growing the way it is. I'm all low fence now but I'm building a high fence around part of my farm to keep these so called "biologists" like Brian Murphy OUT and make sure I have a healthy population of deer for my kids to be able to enjoy in the future before its gone.
I have only ever had one adult animal die and at that time it did not cost me to have it tested or if it did they never sent me a bill.
As far as the wild herd I dont think that any of them are tested for anything, I know the CWD counties are at least a couple hundred mile's north of me. The wild deer popolation here is way down from what it was a few year's back. EHD killed so many a few year's ago. Some hunter's are still killing every doe they see, so they can kill big buck's. Never understood how that will work, and in my area it look's like it's not.
And the late doe season should be outlawed.
As far as the wild herd I dont think that any of them are tested for anything, I know the CWD counties are at least a couple hundred mile's north of me. The wild deer popolation here is way down from what it was a few year's back. EHD killed so many a few year's ago. Some hunter's are still killing every doe they see, so they can kill big buck's. Never understood how that will work, and in my area it look's like it's not.
And the late doe season should be outlawed.
It used to be free here in PA but those times are gone. We to have to pay now starting in 2012. It is now 150.00 a year for everyone and 25.00 for every cwd sample they have to test.
RLAwhitetails said:
here in PA they have increased a 3 day doe hunt to 2 weeks combined with buck season..the reason behind this is to get bigger bucks to attract out of state hunters...there are now antler restrictions throughout the entire state...my persoanl opinion is that 99% of hunters go hunting to harvest a deer to fill up their freezer..most are not "trophy" hunters...those that want a huge 10 pt will wait years to harvest that trophy while passing up the younger deer...
i believe the PA deer population as a whole is down tremendously..whether the insurance and timber industry have anything to do with that is beyond me..however I don't see the hunters in the woods like I used to...i don't hear as many shots either (both go together)...the buck to doe ratio plays an important part of a healthy herd..but when there aren't any deer to hunt what then is considered a healthy herd?
Joined Jul 2009
1,215 Posts | 0+
Deer Park, Alabama
Deer herds are down everywhere I hunt. It is not the number of gun shots you hear but the % of does being shot. Here in Alabama, the supposed management experts, have preached shooting the does. EHD hit hard about 6 years ago and people are still shooting the does. They are killing less of them but that less happens to be a large portion. Now many are seeing very few bucks and wonder why. Groups suchas the QDMA have attributed heavy to this process. Their management practices do not work.
Just for instance, many clubs want deer with wide horns so they have a rule that you can't shoot a buck unless he is 16 inches wide. Guess what that leaves to breed the does - narrow horned deer! The QDMA and many others like them know the preserves are much better managed and more and more people will start hunting the preserves. Where does that leave the QDMA. Without a HOME and no members! This is why they are fighting. It is about protecting their jobs and not the wildlife itself.
Just for instance, many clubs want deer with wide horns so they have a rule that you can't shoot a buck unless he is 16 inches wide. Guess what that leaves to breed the does - narrow horned deer! The QDMA and many others like them know the preserves are much better managed and more and more people will start hunting the preserves. Where does that leave the QDMA. Without a HOME and no members! This is why they are fighting. It is about protecting their jobs and not the wildlife itself.
A few years back they fired a guy in the wildfife divison that was supposedly turning the quality of deer around. He was in his second-third year when he was let go and Pa supposedly saw it best years while he was directing the program. Was this true??
Joined Oct 2009
3,165 Posts | 1+
upstate ny
Sounds like a deer famer did a great job talking to the very people trying to put him out of business!!!
We had a great seminar! We had 250 in attendance and Don helped everyone consider a bunch of factors on how to get into a mature bucks kitchen.
Playing the wind.
Developing Sanctuary's.
Making a good stand great.
Putting the right food in the right place.
We also had Jeff Esely from the MDC speak about the Private Lands Services division and how they can help.
Jason Sumners, MDC Resource Scientist spoke about cooperative efforts and just barely touched on the CWD issue. Barely a question from the audience about that issue. Hmmmmmmm!
If you go over to the qdma site their big fight is that deer farmers are bringing cwd into all states with deer movement.. Then a scientist is there for a Q and A effort and nobody ask's a thing about cwd. Another point shown that the big wigs of qdma are afraid deer farmers are going to stop all the free money they get from brain washed members!! We have a better product than they,with more intrest in high fence hunting from the general public the qdma boys want our butts shut down!!!
We had a great seminar! We had 250 in attendance and Don helped everyone consider a bunch of factors on how to get into a mature bucks kitchen.
Playing the wind.
Developing Sanctuary's.
Making a good stand great.
Putting the right food in the right place.
We also had Jeff Esely from the MDC speak about the Private Lands Services division and how they can help.
Jason Sumners, MDC Resource Scientist spoke about cooperative efforts and just barely touched on the CWD issue. Barely a question from the audience about that issue. Hmmmmmmm!
If you go over to the qdma site their big fight is that deer farmers are bringing cwd into all states with deer movement.. Then a scientist is there for a Q and A effort and nobody ask's a thing about cwd. Another point shown that the big wigs of qdma are afraid deer farmers are going to stop all the free money they get from brain washed members!! We have a better product than they,with more intrest in high fence hunting from the general public the qdma boys want our butts shut down!!!
Alex said:
not sure as to who this would have been...i do know that in recent years the doe allocations have increased significantly while the deer population steadiyl declines...in another forum i posted about how my dad and I saw 8 deer over 6 days while seeing 6 bear...i had only seen 1 bear in all my DEER hunting seasons...to see 6 in 6 days is ridiculous!
also i mentioned in the same forum that the PGC did a survey and amongst their questions was whether or not i was in favor of controlling the deer population by 1) trapping and euthanizing..2) using sharp shooters 3) using birth control... i have NO idea as to where the population of deer is so out of control that we would need sharp shooters!!
Mike, have you ever read any of Don's articals. He is a very down to earth guy and is all about the truth of any matter weather others like his opions or not. He is a deer farmer and a hunter outside the fence as many of us are. You need to cool it and maybe read some of his articals he has wrote before going off on him. I'm sure after doing this you will probly have a different view of him. So what if he was a QDMA member as i'm sure he is not the only deer farmer to be a member or a part of their org. Not trying to get you mad just trying to give you some helpful advice.
Joined Oct 2009
3,165 Posts | 1+
upstate ny
Virgil i in no way meant that to be a slam on don. Infact if he remembers me he will remember an email i sent him on an article he wrote about the deer business in one of the deer magazines. That posts was meant to show how qdma is using someone in the deer farming industry to speak for a group that is infact trying to shut down something he and the rest of us holds so close to the heart. That is dons choice and nobody and especially me has any right to say whom he or anyone speaks on the behalf of. If infact don did join ranks with that group then yes i guess he would be in my and a heck of alot of others radar!! I guess it wont come down to the members of either sides as the higher powers will be fighting this fight but in no way was this a slam on don or what he believes in it was more of a question of qdma!!
No problem Mike,sure you didn't mean anything by it. Just letting you know what it looks like from an outsiders view.
Joined Oct 2009
3,165 Posts | 1+
upstate ny
This is off the front page of their web-site. Does this not say they want us gone because our product and hunting experience that we offer is better than what most hunters can find in the wild. We did not mess up the wild deer on the outside. That was done by the paid highly educated dnr people of most states!!!!
7. Devaluation of the intrinsic value of deer and the hunting experience
We believe the proliferation of the captive deer breeding industry and related shooting facilities are negatively affecting public perceptions of wild deer and related hunting experiences. Further, we are concerned that the widespread availability of captive-reared, abnormally large-antlered “shooter” bucks could alter hunter expectations and change the fundamental hunting experience, thus exacerbating hunter declines and associated economic contributions
7. Devaluation of the intrinsic value of deer and the hunting experience
We believe the proliferation of the captive deer breeding industry and related shooting facilities are negatively affecting public perceptions of wild deer and related hunting experiences. Further, we are concerned that the widespread availability of captive-reared, abnormally large-antlered “shooter” bucks could alter hunter expectations and change the fundamental hunting experience, thus exacerbating hunter declines and associated economic contributions
Just to make it clear the cost here in PA. is 150.00 every two yrs. for a cervid livestock operators license,this pays for our CWD monitoring program. The 25.00 is for the dept. of ag. to due the actual CWD testing. this is a new charge due to the budget cuts made to the department of agriculture. It is mandatory to be licensed he in PA. but depending on farm size and total yearly sales you may not have to pay the 150.00 fee. you should check with the PA. Dept. of Agriculture to get the details. THE CONTACT IS Mary Martin (717-783-5309)
