Transcripts

TSE/CWD expert testimony



Q: Can you just generally describe the

8 status of CWD in Colorado?

status of CWD in Colorado?

9 A. Yes, Wasting Disease is now

10 established in the wild throughout the northern

11 half of Colorado. Interstate 70 pretty much

12 divides the state from north to south, kind of

13 like I-80 divides Iowa from north to south, so

14 most -- well, all of the population units north

15 of I-70 -- I'm pretty sure that's true -- have

16 had at least one case of Wasting Disease that

17 we've detected, and then there are a number of

18 units south of the interstate where we've also

19 picked up the disease, but generally it tends to

20 be more the northern half of the state than the

21 southern half.

22 Early on we truly believed that the

23 disease was focused just to Larimer County, the

24 Northern Front Range and a little bit out on the

25 Platte River into southern Wyoming, and we and

1 Wyoming and a number of other places since have

2 learned that the distribution was much more

3 widespread than we originally thought.

4 Infection rates in those herds, we

5 have places where we pick up a case and we may

6 not see another one again for a number of years.

7 The infection rates are as low as one percent.

8 We have other areas locally where, at

9 a management-unit level, where ten, 15, 20

10 percent of the harvested male deer might be

11 infected.

12 We have smaller populations that we've

13 studied. The one that we've most intensively

14 studied is in Table Mesa just on the south side

15 of Boulder, Colorado. In that population, 42, I

16 believe, percent of the male deer were infected

17 and about 20-some percent of the female deer

18 that we looked at were infected.

19 So it can be locally a very high rate

20 of infection, and even on a larger scale, it can

21 be relatively prevalent in some places.



22 Q. And what has been the impact on the

23 herd, overall herd, from the infection rate?



24 A. Overall, at a large scale, so at a

25 population level it's been difficult to

1 demonstrate any effect over the period of time.[/COLOR]

2 But we've studied the disease and

3 followed the numbers, in part because there are

4 a number of other things that influence

5 particularly deer population dynamics a lot more

6 than a disease like this would in the

7 short-term: weather events, our own hunting

8 practices, predation.

Judge: Q. I had a couple of questions for you.

4 I understand that Chronic Wasting

5 Disease is this prion disease which affects the

6 protein, an abnormal protein is created. Where

7 did the disease originate? Did it originate in

8 Canada?

Dr. Miller: 9 A. No. At least they would take umbrage

10 with that, I believe, Your Honor. No one knows.

11 I mean the honest-to-goodness answer is that no

12 one knows.

13 The first cases -- The syndrome itself

14 was described originally in Colorado. Whether

15 it truly started there or not is an open

16 question, and whether it started in the wild or

17 in captivity initially -- The first cases were

18 described in captivity, but considering the

19 likelihood of seeing something like that and

20 recognizing it consistently in captivity versus

21 in the wild, that makes sense.

22 Whether it's a disease that originated

23 in deer or elk and has always been there at some

24 low level for a long time or whether this is the

25 disease of sheep scrapie that had somehow moved

1 itself into deer is -- You know, those are also

2 possibilities. I have ideas about that, but I

3 don't have any better proof for one than

4 another.

5 And so it's an open question, and,

6 quite honestly, absent of time machine or

7 something, there's no way to go back and really

8 figure all that out.

9 Q. So scrapie was recognized before

10 Chronic Wasting Disease?

11 A. Yes, scrapie actually is a disease

12 that has been described for centuries, before

13 they knew what prions or even viruses or

14 anything.

15 If you go back and look at some of the

16 very old European literature, they describe the

17 symptoms, signs of scrapie in sheep back in the

18 late 1700s, and it probably was recognized long

19 before that.

20 And scrapie was diagnosed in the

21 United States in the '40s, I believe, and so

22 it's been recognized in the U.S. for

23 considerably longer than Chronic Wasting Disease

24 as well.



And for how many years have the elk, mule deer and whitetails been sharing pastures with the sheep???? Really?

Sounds like a positive start. Open minded judge and true honest answers from the stand.



Couple of those answers probably got the judge thinking... Not a soul knows how this started or from where yet a farm/farms take the fall for it?

And to have Dr. Mike Miller (leading CWD expert for US) say that under oath is huge. Our Ag case is not fighting the science, main focus is compensation. Our hunting preserve will be different from the Ag case. That case begins in November.

Rhonda Brakke said:

And to have Dr. Mike Miller (leading CWD expert for US) say that under oath is huge. Our Ag case is not fighting the science, main focus is compensation. Our hunting preserve will be different from the Ag case. That case begins in November.

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Well a person would think, I hope anyways that the two are one in the same.They robbed you of your animals,land and life because of something an expert says they have no true answers on the whole subject.



I really hope you guys get what is due but even if they weasel their way out of compensation this will turn the whole cwd thing upside down and the states will have to adjust accordingly or they know they will be next!

Rhonda,

Dr. Miller states the first cases were found in capitiity but remember those were research facilities pens not animals from our industry. It was from mule deer from the wild placed in the research facility to find out what was wrong with them.. The pen was also used for sheep scrappie research before that. At this point did the mule deer also get the transfer of scrappie to start the CWd or did they have it all along?? Don't let them make like they found this disease in capitivity first like it was our animals that started this problem.

Jack said:

Rhonda,

Dr. Miller states the first cases were found in capitiity but remember those were research facilities pens not animals from our industry. It was from mule deer from the wild placed in the research facility to find out what was wrong with them.. The pen was also used for sheep scrappie research before that. At this point did the mule deer also get the transfer of scrappie to start the CWd or did they have it all along?? Don't let them make like they found this disease in capitivity first like it was our animals that started this problem.

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You are spot on, Jack. It was first "discovered" in 1967 research facility in Fort Collins, CO, where wild mule deer had been penned for RESEARCH and believed that they were exposed to scrapies, as the prior occupants were sheep infected with scrapies. Once, again, for how many centuries have elk, mule deer, and whitetail shared the "open pastures" with sheep???????

Rhonda,

You are up to date in this stuff but is never hurts to check. You also are right these wild elk and deer share their range with domestic animals which have many diseases and worms they can all get but no one thinks about that. They just think about the domestic deer and elk as the only way wildlife can get sick. This is of course is the direction the DNR has taken to eliminate the domestic deer and elk farmers. Good luck with the case.

May I ask what type of proceeding this testimony was taken in?

Hollowroad Whitetails said:

May I ask what type of proceeding this testimony was taken in?

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It was in our contested case with IA for compensation for our deer herd, held just a couple weeks ago. Dr. miller was expert witness for IA Ag who now claims that CWD isn't bad enough to compensate us for our losses, ignoring their own law 163.15 to compensate livestock producers for an infectious and contagious disease. However, it was bad enough to put our hunting preserve out of business, taking our animals and our land for five years with no compensation.

You filed a complaint against the IA Dept of AG for compensation? They are trying to say its not an infectious and contagious disease? In PA, experts are required to prepare and turn over expert reports before they can testify to opinions in a court of law. Did Dr. Miller submit a report? Do you have a copy? Do you have an expert? Did he prepare a report?

Sorry, Dan, but nobody is saying that it's not infectious or contagious. The state quarantined our herd for the finding of CWD under Iowa Code 163 for an infectious and contagious disease, however, they ignored 163.15 which provides compensation to Iowa livestock producers for an infectious and contagious disease.



The state of Iowa now contends that they no longer believe CWD is a threat to public welfare or public health, so therefore, they do not have to compensate us. They also contend, that they were following the CWD Standards document, which thankfully for us have not yet been implemented.



In the Standards, the USDA calls for depopulation or five year quarantine for finding CWD and, in some cases, (like ours) quarantining your ground for five years; placing the financial burden on the producer and the state.



Our 330 acre hunting preserve appraised at $1.5 million has been quarantined til December 28, 2017, (minimum) and our 450 breed herd (still alive and eating) have been appraised by two separate appraisers at $1.5 million (including the state's hired appraiser). We have been at this battle with the state since July 26, 2012.



Dr. Miller's report is essentially about the science for CWD. Nowhere does he make the statements that he made on the stand. We also completed depositions before trial, again he made no such statements. If you will note, some of the questions he answered were directly from the judge.



Confusing, I know, and even more difficult to explain some days.

Dan, I am curious....just as you are...where are you going with your questions? It is obvious to me they have not a clue where CWD started.......they are now trying to roll back and say its not that bad and not a big deal...........so why are the Brakkes being treated as they have been.........they need compensated for their losses......and for the expenses they are incurring daily to maintain a herd that they can not sell.....not to mention about the expenses they had in clean up after the unnecessary murder of their deer to test for cwd.......I am tired of all of this crap and I am not even going through what the Brakkes are.......this has to stop and people in this industry better wake up real quick or they will all lose what they love to do!! I can't believe the few donations towards their cause that WE is supporting....you deer farmers should be ashamed!!

Dennis,

I also feel the same about the donations for this cause. 2567 members and only 70 items listed is really sad. Sure this will help the Brakkes but it will set a new standard for the industry. It may even help stop the abuse from the government. What the hell are you people waiting for or are you just going to let other people do your fighting and hope for the best??

Rohnda: Well, Iowa rules may be different from PA Rules when it comes to experts testifying. I am a bit confused at the interplay between Iowa and the USDA. If Iowa no longer feels it's a threat, then I assume the only quarantine on your property is that under the USDA regs, which is federal. Is this action in federal or state court? Are you requesting compensation only or lifting of the quarantine or both? Perhaps I can email or call you to discuss in more



Dennis, As an attorney, I am trying to better understand the legal arguments that are being made here.

Dan,

As an attorney......you should be in direct contact with the Brakkes ....and not messing around on this forum.........anything you can add to help their cause would be awesome....but I wouldn't waste your time here........with the amount of donations that have gone through from these forums.......it is obvious not to many care.....and that is a shame!

641-425-2095 my husband, Tom's cell

Thank you Rohnda, I will call Tom tomorrow. Please give him a heads up.



Dennis, I appreciate your passion and understand your frustration. Please understand that I must get educated on the issues before I can be of any assistance whatsoever, and that is why I am reaching out to Rhonda on here. I am not nor do I practice in the area of state and federal regulation, so understanding where they are currently is critical. As far as what others are or are not doing, I cannot speak.

I understand Dan and appreciate your feedback.....nor do I expect you to be able to speak upon what others are or are not doing.....I am frustrated with these people.....I really am........I am getting out of the deer business and have more of an interest to support the Brakkes than those still in it.......what does that say.....I am not looking for a pat on the back....I was just hoping to maybe just maybe light a spark and ignite a fire to fight under their butts....but it seems to go upon deaf ears....oh well.....one can only try I guess......

He's expecting your call, Dan. Essentially, the state thinks CWD is so bad they took away everything we have worked for the last 20 years and just refuse to compensate. Feds are encouraging this through their Standards Version 22 which is expected anytime for public comment.