Undervalued Deer

I was just wondering how other people felt on the subject of the undervalued deer. I have been noticing that there are some pretty decent animals and semen being sold dirt cheap. What do you think is the major cause for the decline in value in recent years? Is it the economy, the overabundance of low quality animals and semen, or are we in the deer farming industry self-devaluing our own animals and semen by selling higher quality animals and semen at lower prices to try to compete with the $100 straws and the no reserve does and bucks we are seeing more and more of? I am interested to see what direction this thread takes. I am trying to gather information for a school project and this topic in this forum can provide me with some valuable research material.

Thank you all in advance for your contributions,

Chris

cmw1222, I think it comes down to the fact that folks have to move animals and more often than not it's a popularity contest on sales and production is very often over looked in folks breeding program because you have to sell a marketable product! And hype sells thus driving the market regardless of production.



Folks sell semen at bargain basement prices to either make a quick buck or in an effort to get their genetics infront of folks to help prove them!



Just my take on it and I'm sure some will have differnt take on the subject as a whole!

Wayne do you think that those folks with quality animals and semen should lower their price or preserve the value of their stock and allow the bargain basement folks saturate the market and hope the industry come to its senses and chooses quality over quantity and realizes often you get what you pay for? I am not against getting a good deal on something but i hate it when you see folks practically giving stuff away to move deer. There has to be a change in the mind set of farmers or every one eventually will need to work their butts off to sell straws for a $100. Now doing the math you would need to sell a heck of a lot of straws to make it worth drawing. I guess what I am saying is that By folks selling their stock far below what is usually a reasonable price it makes it harder foe everyone to get a fair price on their stock. Is every one content with the industry being base around a bargain buyer's market?

Basic Economics, Supply VS Demand

In the end it most times comes down to the name game. Right,Wrong or indifferent. Its been proven over and over again. Wayne talks hype and popularity. That is a part of the name game. That has been going on forever and has been spoken about many times. Product and demand has alot to do with it also. There are different routes a person can take in this business but no matter the road taken it still leads to the end product we sell.One farmer cant give a certin breeding away but put that same exact breeding in a different pair of hands and it sells for high dollar. It sometimes comes down to dog eat dog and a person lowers their prices to move their product because. 1.They are going broke. 2.They want to get their name out there.The bottom line i believe in the semen market is there are just to many great shooter bucks being drawn and then put up for sale. There are so many great breedings put together that make a great buck but with todays deer it takes alot to make an awesome buck that has what most every farmer wants to breed with. I hope some other guys that have been in this business a long time and have seen the changes chime in and help you out as it would be interesting and helpful to you to hear it from someone that has been here from the start!!

As the deer industry matures in the AI aspect prices will continue to drop on semen. The cattle industry you buy straws from good bulls for under $20. You can even get sexed semen I think its around $50.

Semen and deer prices have been affected by the tons of auctions out there and partciularly the on line auctions. If people are willing to sell for those low prices they bring everyone down. Sort of like some of the hunting preserves slashing their prices. A few years ago the prices were artificially high and they needed to come down some - but now it is ridiculous. We don't sell anything at auctions anymore. We will keep our genetics before we give them away. We don't draw many bucks anymore either - only for insurance for ourselves, or to use ourselves. Way too many bucks are being drawn when only a fraction of that semen will ever sell.



Hopefully things will stabilize at reasonable prices. I think some of that is happening. There are still some spikes on things here and there, and those are probably artificial as well.



So - Ballistic semen and offspring are available from us only.

Tim Matthews said:

Basic Economics, Supply VS Demand

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I agree Tim. There might be other factors out there, but bottom line, ''supply vs demand'' is the most paramount factor affecting the prices...hands down!!!!!

The term " undervalued" is a relative term. Who determines what the value is of a product? The buyer determines the value of a product by what he/she is willing to pay for it. Sometimes smart and effective advertising campaigns can appreciate the value of a product, but, this is only for a short time until the market corrects itself . The deer industry has some very smart and effective marketers, who can promote their deer far in excess of their real- time value. The key to livestock profitability is the the first lesson I learned in livestock management as a teenager : "LET THE BUYER BEWARE"!

Supply and demand is exactly right. Better marketing is the reason some guys are able to sell breeder bucks that to me look like good shooters for more then somebody who has huge productive deer but doesn't spend much on marketing. If you fall for the hype and buy a deer that was run up by the guy selling without doing your home work on production, it's your own fault. That's what has ruined the auctions as far as I'm concerned, way to many people thought if they ran there own animal up to a ridiculious price, pay the commision as part of your marketing fund in hopes that it would increase the value on ALL there other animals. Well it did work for some, and is still working that way for others. I think most of the people figured out just what was going on and that is why the market has corrected itself and is realizing more realistic prices. If there is so many good deals out there that are better then others, then anyone should feel free to go for it and make yourself a bunch of $$$. In the end it comes down to producing the best bucks for the least amount of investment for more profit in the end. If your one of these people who thought you could buy a $50,000 doe at an auction and returned you maybe a couple $1,000 fawns a year because you don't spend any money marketing and ended up with nothing outstanding to show from the doe, Id say that you fell for the hype. You will always have the people who blame others for there own mistakes because they didn't do enough homework and payed way to much money for an animal that doesn't produce enough to make a good return. Some people like doing buisiness with some people better then others because of the support they get after the sale, added value. Online auctions now a days, good or bad are what create the real value in something. If you think buying $100 semen will make you money, go for it, it sure may. It may also not be getting a bid because more people did there home work and found that you could spend a little more on a better breeder and produce ALOT more inches and profit. There is some great deals out there but there are always some better then others and it all comes down to what people want and don't want. In the end in this business it's big bucks at an early age. Simple supply and demand, LOTS of good bucks that a few people want to breed with and a FEW GREAT bucks everyone wants to breed with. That's how this country was built and how the free enterprise system works, always has and always will(hopefully).....



Cody Warne

www.warneranches.com

Is it just whitetail which are dropping in value or is all species of deer dropping too?



Cheers Sharkey

Supply and Demand will also work as Gary says..............If you have the only supply....regardless of the Demand..................YOU control the Supply and the Demand!





If folks are doing thier homework and they want your product and your lines production........They will have to come and get it at the Farm!

That will eliminate "watering down" the market!

Wayne that sure would make people do more one on one business thats for sure. That cant be a bad thing!!!

For those folks that have asked, the price of Ballistic semen is $3500 per straw. If you are buying multiple straws it drops to $3000. If you buy 10 or more it is $2500. This semen was collected by Earl Souva at Great Lakes Sires and is stored there. Earl said it was very good quality semen.



We bred Ballistic to some of our Rex daughters this year. Rex is a High Roller son out of a Jack doe. Rex was bred to some Blue Mt. Bill daughters, who were also out of Jack does. The result of that breeding, the Rex/Blue Mt. Bill does are who we bred Ballistic to this year. So there is High Roller at least twice and Jack 3 times in this mix. Throw in Blue Mt. Bill for points and mass as well and these should be some awesome fawns.

Those prices are huge.

How sustainable are those prices?

In 10 years will his offspring still deliver those returns?



I've seen a couple of cycles in deer values.

Red deer hinds $2000 each 30 years ago,much better animals now are $300.

The most expensive straws are $500 but I wouldn't pay more than $250 for any from "the best??" stag.



There are trends to this,looking at the bell curve & where you believe the industry currently is helps when making the decision on value.

Is it going up or down?



I asked about other deer species because this would indicate if it was just the whitetail market which was depressed.The answer to this may help with decisions.



What are the price of whitetail/deer relative to cattle,sheep & goats?

A few years ago feral goats were going for $100 for supply to "Halal" markets,fallow less than $50 each at the same time.Currently the price has shifted with fallow about $100 & meat goats $50.

If its possible to produce goats at a price how much more to produce deer?



Whitetail appears only to have a very big "domestic" market for trophies.

How volitile is this demand/market?



Cheers Sharkey

The hunting market is growing and I believe will continue to grow. As public lands are less accessible and less desireable the hunting market will grow. That is the end market for deer. The number of whitetail deer in relation to cows, sheep and goats is tiny. So to compare it is like comparing apples and oranges. Pricing for semen from the top bucks today is comparable and probably higher than our prices for Ballistic. It has come down from the top prices of $10,000 per straw only a few years ago. Maybe it will continue to come down even for the top bucks, time will tell. As there are more and more really good deer the prices generally have come down. Also many more people are collecting semen, flooding the market with a lot of semen from very good bucks. We only drew our buck Ballistic once last fall and don't have hundreds of straws - so the supply is somewhat limited. Also, he is in the 500+ inch category which is pretty exclusive at this point. As more bucks achieve that size the price of semen from bucks that size will probably come down. We'll see. It is like any product - the first couple on the market always get the higher price but as others come up with the same thing the price drops.

Wow, I saw this post and thought for sure someone was talking about my deer. LOL

Wild Rivers Whitetails said:

The number of whitetail deer in relation to cows, sheep and goats is tiny. So to compare it is like comparing apples and oranges.

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I understand that,I was asking about the production costs.



I often compare setting up a deer or sheep operation,by the time you build the shearing sheds you've spent the same as extra fencing & yards for deer.

Will wool & lamb return more than deer?

What industry has more stability or greater return?



How much more expensive is it to raise a deer you've bred yourself than a goat?

What are either worth?

The answer may give you an idea of how/why margins might shift.



Cheers Sharkey