Article: "How to Grow Less Antler!" Need input

That one is easy! Buy Alabama does. Problem solved. They will live forever and you will never have to cut antlers due to being to big.

All ya hear anymore is people wanting 200in, 2yr old but then the phone rings off the hook for ranch owners needing bucks 130 to 180.   Something has to give somewhere. Its like a smaller buck should be worth more then a larger buck. Im no ranch owner but seems to me its either give more for smaller bucks or the next step will be 200in hunts will be the new 150in hunts.  Not really sure but product and demand have to meet up somewhere.

And what are these preserves wanting to pay for these 130-180 bucks?????

They are looking for em because no one in there right mind is going to keep breeding them 120-150's for nothing or even a loss.... With the cost of feed, NO one makes much if any money selling 130 inch hunt bucks, preserves or breeders. Most hunters won't pay jack squat to shoot a 130 inch buck because in a lot of places in the Midwest you can shoot em for little or nothing.

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They are looking for em because no one in there right mind is going to keep breeding them 120-150's for nothing or even a loss.... With the cost of feed, NO one makes much if any money selling 130 inch hunt bucks, preserves or breeders. Most hunters won't pay jack squat to shoot a 130 inch buck because in a lot of places in the Midwest you can shoot em for little or nothing.




In my part of the world a 180 will fetch ya anywhere between 23 and 28. Thats a pretty easy hit for some at 1yr for most and a givin at 2yrs old.  By my math if a guy moves 20 to 40 of that size a year he is fetching pretty well for his hobby.

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In my part of the world a 180 will fetch ya anywhere between 23 and 28. Thats a pretty easy hit for some at 1yr for most and a givin at 2yrs old.  By my math if a guy moves 20 to 40 of that size a year he is fetching pretty well for his hobby.




That sounds a bit higher than here for a 180 (depending on the look) and you're right, there is money to be made at those prices, but what are the 130's to 170? Around here, you won't be anywhere near that money for "management bucks"- you would literally make no money even if the buck was sold as a yearling and are losing money if he's 2 or older.  

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That sounds a bit higher than here for a 180 (depending on the look) and you're right, there is money to be made at those prices, but what are the 130's to 170? Around here, you won't be anywhere near that money for "management bucks"- you would literally make no money even if the buck was sold as a yearling and are losing money if he's 2 or older.  




That price comes from a price list of a very active buyer in Ohio. Anything under 150 is 1200.   I guess everybodys terms of...Making Money.. is different.   I mean how much does it cost to make a 130 to 150 yearling.  You have a fawn born in june, on the mom and good pasture and very little grain till weaning. Then over winter the yearling eats hay made on the farm and grain over the winter untill green up and then back on pasture.  It would be tough to break it down when talking fuel for cutting hay and corn and such but i think a guy can make money at those prices IF they have their farms set up as a farm.


 I know some like to only have the deer eat what they hand feed them. Well that costs cash!!  I have my farms set up with rotational grazing of each pen full of alfalfa and clover, A deer does not need much grain and will make great antlers on 22% protein pastures.


 Every farm will be different no doubt but i can say that for a hobby farm to sell 40 animals a year at prices from 1200 to 2500( 150-180 yearlings) will pay the bills and should put a smile on any hobby farmers face. Dont try that with any other kind of hobby farm livestock.


No two farms will be the same or set up the same and no doubt that those of us that can make most everything our deer need right here at home will do much better than someone that has to pay for every facet of their farm.  We also cant forget that most price scales are dictated by the state. A 180in buck could have a handful of different prices on his hide all across the country!

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That price comes from a price list of a very active buyer in Ohio. Anything under 150 is 1200.   I guess everybodys terms of...Making Money.. is different.   I mean how much does it cost to make a 130 to 150 yearling.  You have a fawn born in june, on the mom and good pasture and very little grain till weaning. Then over winter the yearling eats hay made on the farm and grain over the winter untill green up and then back on pasture.  It would be tough to break it down when talking fuel for cutting hay and corn and such but i think a guy can make money at those prices IF they have their farms set up as a farm.


 I know some like to only have the deer eat what they hand feed them. Well that costs cash!!  I have my farms set up with rotational grazing of each pen full of alfalfa and clover, A deer does not need much grain and will make great antlers on 22% protein pastures.


 Every farm will be different no doubt but i can say that for a hobby farm to sell 40 animals a year at prices from 1200 to 2500( 150-180 yearlings) will pay the bills and should put a smile on any hobby farmers face. Dont try that with any other kind of hobby farm livestock.


No two farms will be the same or set up the same and no doubt that those of us that can make most everything our deer need right here at home will do much better than someone that has to pay for every facet of their farm.  We also cant forget that most price scales are dictated by the state. A 180in buck could have a handful of different prices on his hide all across the country!




Thanks for the reply, Mike. You gave a lot of information that is important for people to factor in. Some additional thoughts that factor in for many farmers:


1) Those prices are from someone in Ohio. That is important to know in terms of what is local, and what hauling may factor in. I can assure you that not everyone will get 1200 for "anything under 150", and that's not factoring in the cost of darting the deer and possibly hauling.


2) To make a 150" yearling (which many guys haven't done), I have to a) feed his mom for some length of time (did I raise her from a fawn, buy bred, etc.), b) buy/rent a breeder or pay for AI/ semen, c) continue to feed the mom and fawn and give other medications/care and d) feed that yearling until I dart him and possibly haul him. So, assuming I actually get a shooter 150 yearling, I'm going to have a grand in him, probably minimum. (And that isn't amortizing infrastructure costs, which can be in the 5 digits in no time flat.)  


3) I suspect most guys don't have the operation to provide a significant amount of their own feeds, and are subject to the market costs of those goods, which are high right now (although grain prices did soften some.) I'm just glad we have never had to buy hay- grain is bad enough!


4) I suspect many farms aren't able to keep enough quality grazing rotated to provide sufficient feed to their deer without significant additional feed, at least without sacrificing results; everyone needs to be realistic about the space they have. 


5) I doubt many farmers can achieve the above results on their farms AND turn out 40 shooters a year. Heck, 20 shooters a year means there are a bunch of deer on that farm (does, bucks and young stock), unless sexed semen is being used and fawning success and subsequent survival is very good.


I suspect a more realistic goal for the majority of farmers would be selling 160-220" 2 year olds, with the prices ranging from 1000-5000 on those deer. Overhead would be different for everyone, so profit margins would be all over the board.  


I know you already know this information, but there have been questions lately about how to profit from deer farming, and I thought I'd throw out some other numbers and costs to consider, based on some of what I've seen.  

Yes Sir, Everybody has to do their own thing and work with what they have but it can and is being done. I guess we have just been lucky as it seems i dont have issues with the deer at that young age. Its when you get to 2 and 3 years old when you start having issues. Move many at a young age for a fair price and move on to the next year. Bills are paid and bank slips look good.  Everybody seems to take the path of growing bigger deer and better blood rather than give what the industry is really begging for.  Hunter cant all afford the big hunts. I have cheap older line does that have paid for themselves time after time. Now i have them and their daughters doing the same.  Sometimes getting off the path that everyone else is taking works. It was always quality over quanity.  It seems thats not the only way to get it done. You are spot on with all your thoughts because all that does happen with many farms. We all have to pick a path and stay on it and hope for the best.

Mike, If your selling 40 yearling bucks every year averaging 150-180 on your hobby farm, your my hero and I'd like to come for a farm visit! I think I need to move to a more "deer friendly" place that doesn't have EHD, pneumonia, etc. or cold wet springs. We only have the grazing here for about a month or two and then our grasses and clovers dry up or become to rank for the deer to eat. The only way that would work for me is having my pens under an irrigation system. Our temps go from -40 windchill in the winter to as high as 117 in the summer. If its working good for you, keep up the good work, there isn't much out there most of us would rather be doing then raising deer and if your happy with your results, that's all that matters! 

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Mike, If your selling 40 yearling bucks every year averaging 150-180 on your hobby farm, your my hero and I'd like to come for a farm visit! I think I need to move to a more "deer friendly" place that doesn't have EHD, pneumonia, etc. or cold wet springs. We only have the grazing here for about a month or two and then our grasses and clovers dry up or become to rank for the deer to eat. The only way that would work for me is having my pens under an irrigation system. Our temps go from -40 windchill in the winter to as high as 117 in the summer. If its working good for you, keep up the good work, there isn't much out there most of us would rather be doing then raising deer and if your happy with your results, that's all that matters! 




Not 40 yet but headed in that direction and maybe not all yearlings. Some will go at 2 and any sons from say Romeo, Tea or any other higher end sires whom's son's are known to top out at 2 and 3 will stay on the farm for backup service or sale until 3 unless sold for a breeder.


 My point is if a guy..Reguardless where you live..can make a profit selling at a young age and antler class then why wait. If the market is there and the buyer is standing there with checkbook open???


We have the 40 below but real temp with 60 below windchill and maybe 90 days in summer if lucky so we have 3 months to grow 4 tops. Our state just does not grow the bigger bucks behind fence or in the wild. Just the way it is so we take advantage to what we have been dealt.  


 This business is so different in every state its not even funny. Talking to a guy from a down south state at nadefa last year and he was showing me numbered proof of bucks of the same score and look being sold for 5 grand plus higher than i could sell my same buck in any state. We all just have to keep changing things up that can help us prosper and what works for one will in know way work for another.

with those prices in ohio I would let them set and then maybe they would not give a hunt away to show that they do 400 hunts a year for as selling tool. We should all hold the value of our deer even if they are big or small. IT WILL ONLY GET BETTER

I agree, if mine are good looking 170 plus at 2 they are headed down the road. I've got my a$$ whipped by ehd and lost a dozen awesome yearlings one year so I know they can just tip over dead. And of course it was the biggest 12 of 24, go figure. My grand dad always said, "don't fall in love with livestock, if you can make good money on it, sell it, otherwise the next day you may have to bury it".

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with those prices in ohio I would let them set and then maybe they would not give a hunt away to show that they do 400 hunts a year for as selling tool. We should all hold the value of our deer even if they are big or small. IT WILL ONLY GET BETTER




LOL...We are not talking about the same ranch.

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It seems like a humorous topic,   but it was actually a serious discussion during the Top 30 show.  It comes about because of the serious problem of bucks not finishing antler growth and the need to cut antler early (or else lose the buck!).  There is little money to be made with cut off antler of gargantuan inches. But decreasing antler size may in fact return some profitability to these bucks.  I'd like to run an article in Deer Tracking with industry comments, suggestions and strategies that really would enable/cause a buck to grow smaller antlers than normal with the hope of harvesting him as a hunt buck....names will not be published.




 


The answer seems to be really simple to your question ?..........................STOP breeding 400" to 500" to 600" Bucks ect. It should help SLLOOOWWW the problem?? LOL

Mike sorry I was not poking at one ranch I was poking at any ranch that just gives the hunts away. All they are doing is driving down the value of all of our operations and other hunting ranches. Soon the deer in the wild will be limited and not to be found and then when these guys raise their prices back up to where they need to be the anti's will use it as ammo. I just don't understand why people would sell hunts less then what it takes to raise them. But I cant blame them totally . If someone sold me a BMW for 1000.00 you bet I would turn some cash quick but not sell it for 1200.00. Sorry to b__tch  but I hate seeing what is happening.


 


Ed

My question would be...if you have 30-40 130-150 inch bucks, what are you doing with all their doe siblings?  Seems to me you couldn't give away a doe if its brother was only capable of growing 130 inch antlers.  Eating 30-40 deer per yearling could be quite a challenge.


 


To answer the original question, I think you just breed with lower quality genetics if you want smaller antlers.  

Ed,


    I was looking at hunt prices in Ohio last week and prices are not too bad.  Not what they once were but not bad. BUT, we didn't have one call from an Ohio preserve. The preserves that really did not want to give ANYTHING last year were the ones in KY and were begging for deer.    IF Louisiana opens back up that will help because a lot of Indiana people were selling there before they closed last year.


 


     I heard of many that were looking for 130-150's but who can raise them for what they want to give unless you are selling them as yearlings.  I don't think too many hunters want to buy yearlings.  I think you will get a premium price if you have big typicals because from the preserve owners I have talked to thats where it is going.  We must face the fact that as much non-typical that has been used that some that are under 200 are not even marketable becasue of their look.  People do not want to pay 5-8K for a blob of horn on their head that resembles a crab tree.  The hunters are getting smarter and are going to the bigger framed typicals with extras.  You will still have some that want a huge buck but how can you afford to raise 4-600" if you have to cut most of them or they die from antler infection.  For the one you sell you may lose several.  If they had been bred for balance with inches maybe more could carry their horns but many have been breeding for soley for inches.  I think this is why you are seeing the rush to Texas bucks right now.  I really don't think that is the answer because how can you take out of the pedigree on the doe side what you do not want.  Even generations down the line you will still get asymmetry and junk. 


 


   There some nice big typicals out there  Big Stitch, Southern Boy, Big n Bad, Banjo, Arty, Maxbo Ranger, Peacock line, and an oldie but goodie the Thunderstorm/patrick line. 

If I were you I would try to grow big typicals like this guy!