Breeding Discipline/Flavor of the week

verdana, geneva, Good Topic Ryan and nice comment Josh. I have done my fair share of the "Flavor of the Month" chasing and wasted a lot of time and money.  So I now concentrate on the same things as most breeders with the exception of one thing.  I only want to breed with lines that produce big deer at 2 years old. With the price of feed, the cost of time, and the risk of ehd, we want to produce 2 year olds that are ready to breed and hunt. And most of our hunters want deer that score from 180 to 350. 


 


verdana, geneva, I no longer care about "popular" pedigrees. I look at what they have on their head at 2 and look at the pedigree to ask myself if their pedigree will enable them to pass that on and improve on what I want when bred to does with pedigrees built for the same goals.  I only consider deer that were either big at 2 (200+  fairly clean typicals and 300+ framy non-typicals).  After that is established then I go for the look which is usually made up of the width, tines, mass, and symmetry.  And contrary to what you read in these forums most hunters want variety. Big Framy deer are easy sellers but so are unique deer. The goal is big framy deer that score big. A few clean ones and a few unique deer are great. They are the icing on the cake.


 


verdana, geneva, I try to block any buck older than 3 out of my mind even if its in my own pens. If I use an older breeder it is because he met my 2 year old goals and I want to continue to breed with him. Now a days in my pens a deer is not likely to blow up at 3 or 4 or 5 unless he was big at 2....lol....he just won't live to see the day....

Good strategy! We have always said variety is the spice of life! Hunters don't want to shoot the same buck year after year, but are looking for something different. As long as a buck is balanced, he will sell. We always feel there is a hunter for every deer.


The breeding market has changed a lot over the years and it seems everyone has big deer these days. Pedigrees are less important in the hunting market where what matters is what they have on their head, period.

Its all about selling the female. If you dont have the flavor of the month in your **** line for that year you will sell few females. Anybody will buy the buck from that line if not just for a stocker.  

If you breed with the "Flavor" Thinking it will be a "homerun" selling your fawns........................Well you better be able to swallow your pride if you think a high dollar straw eqauls a high dollar fawn!

Sam hit the nail on the head....If the sire will not produce big offspring at 2 then I will not even consider.  I could care less of the pedigree. I am glad to see the market going back to the natural look, and as for a "homerun" the guys that kept there older big frame producers will hit it.  Seen way to many guys that could not sell there bucks this year with there flavored pedigrees.

200" @ 2 yrs old was my goal from day one. I also said I would sell all bucks at 3 no matter what the scored. I can say I have stuck to that and actually achieved the 200" @ 2 last year with that buck being 24.375" inside. We are looking into actually AI ing this year for the soul purpose of making bigger bucks @ 2 . In a cool years I hope to be sending out full loads of 200" 2 yr olds. Cheap doe are just something you have to work around when ur raising strictly stocker bucks, and that's what 95% of us r doing.

I sold all my 2 year olds this year all 200"+ but 1 was only 186" but 200"+ 2 year olds should be everyones goal!


 


My focus of my herd the is we won't breed anything less than a 6x and 30" beams and LONG tines and as far as 30"+ width well if it happens it happens! If a 6x + frame with long tines and 24-26" wide ain't wide enough...........................I'll put em on my own wall!


 


If you think your having fun with raising Whitetails now...................Quite worrying about chasing someone else's tail and raising Whitetails becomes ALOT more FUN!

The goal should be to improve your herd.  Breed out weaknesses, strive for bigger and better, and consistency.  And have fun!

If you have doe's that produces 150 inch three year olds, how big of a two year old sire would it take on average to get 200 inch two year old offspring. Or is it even possible?

I'm a small hobby farmer and don't get to serious about this stuff but when I have a doe that produces 150 in three year olds I breed her with my 30-06 and make sausage out of her and I get them too just like most of us. I feel I can not affort to have a doe that looses me money,and if her son's are only scoreing 150 at 3 she's costing me ! I'm sure we all have plenty of doe's so we need not keep those that don't produce even close to what we need . I like to AI my does to bucks that have the look so to speak and are from good bucks that also have the look. Not all popular bucks produce ! Hell even if a buck has 5 great looking sons advertized allot but he's been bred to hundreds of does thats not that good of odds in my opinion and for me he's not worth paying a big premium for . I like Sam's plan and his reasons for them and thats kind of what I try and do, I just don't get his awesome results and I can only eat so much sausage.. but I'll keep trying !!!

Wooden acres905371393427455



I'm a small hobby farmer and don't get to serious about this stuff but when I have a doe that produces 150 in three year olds I breed her with my 30-06 and make sausage out of her and I get them too just like most of us. I feel I can not affort to have a doe that looses me money,and if her son's are only scoreing 150 at 3 she's costing me ! I'm sure we all have plenty of doe's so we need not keep those that don't produce even close to what we need . I like to AI my does to bucks that have the look so to speak and are from good bucks that also have the look. Not all popular bucks produce ! Hell even if a buck has 5 great looking sons advertized allot but he's been bred to hundreds of does thats not that good of odds in my opinion and for me he's not worth paying a big premium for . I like Sam's plan and his reasons for them and thats kind of what I try and do, I just don't get his awesome results and I can only eat so much sausage.. but I'll keep trying !!!




Many of us do not have does that produce at that level yet.  that is why i ask the question.  how many generations of ai'ing does it take to get does that will produce at that level.

Each generation should be better than the last, but you have to get rid of the mother is she is not producing at a level desired.  You just have to to figure out how much it will cost you to feed two or three generations and the time involved versus culling and buying new deer.

Deerchaser , I didn't mean to sound harsh but if your does are producing 150 in 3 year olds your loosing more money than if you just bought a few doe's that would produce much bigger offspring .Here in Wi we'd only get $1000.00 to $1500.00 tops for a 150 in buck ! Now you've got at least $500.00 a year in the buck and another $500.00 a year in the doe that produces them . You got licence fees and testing fees and drugs and vet work exspenses. You can't favor or get attached to deer that produce 150 in 3 year old bucks. Now there were several doe's and doe fawns on the recent Midwest Sale that were under $2000.00 and I'm sure would produce bucks in that 200+ range by 3 years old . Heck there was a fawn that only brought $600.00 and all her sires and grandsires were way over 200. Sometimes we just need to cut our loses and move forward for our best interests . Didn't mean to sound harsh in anyway !

When I look through pictures of hunt bucks taken from various preserves one thing I notice is the loss of beam and tine length.  We are new at this by the year 2010 but I would venture to say that once you breed out beam and tine length that it is hard to get it back.    The problem I see is that so many people breed wide wide wide that beam and tine length can be lost in this practice.  How many wide bucks do you see with great tine lenght???? I have maybe seen one or two.  I don't like narrow but width is not what we will breed for.  I thought there was a nice article in deer tracking(the last one I think) that discussed that what is unusual is seeked and once we breed for that and it becomes common place that that trait in not as desirable because it is not as unusual of a trophy.


We will breed for a good looking, BALANCED, animal with emphasis on tine and beam length.  If you don't have beam length you cannot put QUALITY tines on it.  We used the buck in my avatar to back up with and breed the does we did not AI.  he was two and scored 220.  I will take a pen full of him everyday of the week.  He's not wide but hes not narrow and has tine length with an incredibly balanced look.

Wooden acres905641393537631



Deerchaser , I didn't mean to sound harsh but if your does are producing 150 in 3 year olds your loosing more money than if you just bought a few doe's that would produce much bigger offspring .Here in Wi we'd only get $1000.00 to $1500.00 tops for a 150 in buck ! Now you've got at least $500.00 a year in the buck and another $500.00 a year in the doe that produces them . You got licence fees and testing fees and drugs and vet work exspenses. You can't favor or get attached to deer that produce 150 in 3 year old bucks. Now there were several doe's and doe fawns on the recent Midwest Sale that were under $2000.00 and I'm sure would produce bucks in that 200+ range by 3 years old . Heck there was a fawn that only brought $600.00 and all her sires and grandsires were way over 200. Sometimes we just need to cut our loses and move forward for our best interests . Didn't mean to sound harsh in anyway !




I didn't take at harsh.  The problem is Alabama is a closed border and a proven doe that would produce a two year old 200 inch buck would cost a fortune.  Many of us are left with trying to breed up our on stock.  That is why I ask how long it would take.   I am not attached to any of them,  I now have 2nd generation fawns from AIing.  The older does have to go.  From this process i don't yet have a 2 year old buck.  That is why the question.  How many generations should it take to see a substantial improvement and consistency?

Brett, that's a tough question. I think some lines just have while others simply don't have what it takes. I think you can certainly breed any doe line stronger and eventually get major weakness bred out over time, but that's just it. It takes time, maybe lots of time that may not be worth taking on. That's why good starter foundation is important. Buy the best you can afford at first. I understand your good does may be pricey in a closed boarded, but if you get 200" two year olds from her right away it's cheaper than building your does up,especially if they are only getting 140 two year olds for example. One small advantage you may have is your shooter prices may be a bit better than the big states with open boarders so you might have a chance to make more money off a smaller stocker.

Brett, I am actually very hard on my does, you do not want to be a doe that's not producing at least 150" 2 year olds at my farm. The reason I use 150" two year olds as a goal is because I can still profit of them at that age and score, not much, but I can if I need to sell for some reason.

I dont have a doe on my farm right now with a son that's under 150 at two. If one of my does gives me a lower quality two year old, I don't sell her to someone else to be their problem, I don't even waste the money to dart her to send to a preserve, I shoot her on the spot. Problem eliminated, period, no messing around and no more money wasted on her. I hate to sound harsh to anyone reading the forums that is not a member, but I feel that my does are given the highest quality life a deer can have, all I ask of them is to give me some nice two year olds, if they can't do that than it is in my best interest to eliminate her and let a more capable doe fill her spot.

That why I do not bottle feed my doe fawns unless I know without doubt they are strong enough to give me good two year olds. I cannot kill my bottlefeds I get way too attached to them.

I get the point of buying the good does. I live in south alabama and Ehd is here 6 months out of the year. I bought the best doe fawns I could find 4 years ago and the best buck fawn available, all from the northern part of the state. Seven in total. Not one lived to produce, they died at 16 months. All of them in 2 days of Ehd. I have never lost a southern deer to Ehd. Some farms have some success raising northerns in alabama but my place is hell on them.

That leaves me trying to increase the genetic potential starting with a southern doe. I know how good they taste already!

all this discussion also brings up other points


It takes time for a doe to show you what she is going to produce,.about two to three years. Which does do you keep and which do you move before you know what they produce???


Not all great pedigreed does are going to produce just like not everybody is an athlete or can sing.


Not all bucks are going to produce the traits we want them to and takes 1-2 years to see what he will produce after he is already 1-2 years of age at first breeding. and how many does do you breed to him each year until you decide if he is producing or not?


How many people use yearling bucks to breed with? and what criteria do you use to select which ones you do use.  Score, pedigree or look????