Darting ????

G'day Mark.

The kitchen table reference was mine,actually

I believe you truely believe you are helping,but unless you start using mg to the kg instead of a third of a bottle of this to 2cc of this (you get my drift) you are not.

Why do we have vets?

Why are these drugs controlled?

Please be responsable.

Chapchaman,is a professional,as are others on this forum.

I don't think he was aggressive at all.

We have both seen restrictions brought upon us in several countries because of the missuse of these drugs.You don't want that.

You have not answered his question on xylazine,why is that,it is not that cryptic.

Dart size is important for impact trauma & induction times,not just flight characteristics of the dart.

I hope your good luck continues.

Cheers Sharkey

I dont have a dog in this fight,but I have to say there is nothing Mark said that was out of line.I agree it is good to have a rapport with your local vet.Not many are versed in Cervids so yes we are continually training them as well as them us.A capture corse would be great but not always possible.

I know several people that use 300 xylazine because of chemical resistant deer.

No two deer are the same some strains of deer are somewhat resistant ,so the stronger xylazine helps aid in them being restrained.

We are all ambassadors to the deer industry so we are on a daily basis teaching the public and sometimes our vets the how and whys of Deer Farming.

Sharkey you were kinda Badgering him with some of your posts. If every time some one posts gets grilled or ridiculed there will be no one to answer important questions.

To solve this all DBCOKE I am from Oklahoma as well as yourself call me and I will get solutions to your problems or questions.

Great answer skip.....this is getting to the point where nobody is going to get on here and help the folks that really need it because of a bunch of bullsh!t slams.If someone does not have a positive answer to someone in need they can just keep out of the question.....Do us all a favor!!!!

G'day Skip

Maybe I am "badgering"(is that like a flamin dingo?lol).

Lets not forget we are talking about controlled drugs here.

A bit of professionalism & care is reasonable I would think.

I'm not trying to deter people from comming here for help,Just trying to lift the bar a bit,especially around the effects of & accuracy in using these drugs.

Is "badgering" being called book smart by someone who has only darted 150 domestic deer from a single species?

Or is it being "slammed"by trying to help by raising the understanding just a little?

I would have thought a little understanding into what these drugs are & how they work would be positive,as would a good relationship with a vet.

I will admit reading things like 2cc of this into a bottle of that,inflames me.

Its just not that hard to use mg to kg,remembering that the concentrations of these drugs vary & this forum is read in many countries.

Or is it only for those who use 100mg xylazine or for Nth American's only?

Or whitetail only?

Cheers Sharkey

I am sure if someone had a question about mg to kg they would ask the question and hopefully if there is any with that knowledge still on this site would be quick to reply.We raise whitetails,we dart whitetails and we treat whitetails...Simple.We were taught with a certin method that works for us so why confuse things for many.Mark is right in his words that the vets in most areas are not deer savy and i have also lost animals after taking a vets advice.Thats one of the biggest things that concern me is that all the crap that has went on on this site have pushed some of the most knowlegable folks that used to be quick to help no longer give advice...Thats a shame for a new person standing in a pen somewhere with a little fawn at their feet and are at a loss of what to do and lose the fawn...

skip said:

I dont have a dog in this fight,but I have to say there is nothing Mark said that was out of line.I agree it is good to have a rapport with your local vet.Not many are versed in Cervids so yes we are continually training them as well as them us.A capture corse would be great but not always possible.

I know several people that use 300 xylazine because of chemical resistant deer.

No two deer are the same some strains of deer are somewhat resistant ,so the stronger xylazine helps aid in them being restrained.

We are all ambassadors to the deer industry so we are on a daily basis teaching the public and sometimes our vets the how and whys of Deer Farming.

Sharkey you were kinda Badgering him with some of your posts. If every time some one posts gets grilled or ridiculed there will be no one to answer important questions.

To solve this all DBCOKE I am from Oklahoma as well as yourself call me and I will get solutions to your problems or questions.

Click to expand...

But we all need to learn your solutions to their problems!

OK I was only trying to help a fellow deer farmer some support ,I was not getting involved, but I guess it's too late.

Sharkey,you are right these are controlled drugs They cannot be bought on the street,so you have to have a relationship w/ a vet to acquire them.Everyone that does this has a vet. Certain vaccines are required to ship to a vet and cannot be shipped directly to you.

I do believe in time as our industry becomes more mainstream new veterinarians freshly out of school will be specialized in cervids or at least been exposed to them in some way during their tenure.Oklahoma State University is currently involved in such a venture right now to make this a reality. It is called the OSU Farmed Whitetail Deer Program look it up on You tube.

Sharkey back to the original pun badgering means to taunt,pester,or agitate.I am not sure what a flaming dingo is if it gets near the deer pens its going down.

OK dearjohn here is what I do not just a recommendation.For moving older fawns in fall 3/4 cc of straight xylazine.For the older does that I want totally sedated I use 2cc of telozol cocktail mixed w/ 6cc of xylazine for each bottle of Telozal.I know my deer there are a few that take 3cc but my boys and I know which ones they are and administer accordingly.

Now you can see why I defended Mark we are not too far off what we both do.

Now that is what works for me and what I was taught by an experienced deer farmer.

As our industry advances we all will be better versed in our techniques and methods.WE are all doing it right now and some of you don't even realize it.

Sharkey you are right about the argument of a vet.I hope I helped explain the reasons of our method and where if we stand together we will only advance our industry in the realm of AMERICAN agriculture.

Thanks for your response Skip.



Yes the deer industry will change,hopefully for the better & may the changes be driven by the stakeholders not beaurocrats & anti's.



Sorry? I missed your point

"we will only advance our industry in the realm of AMERICAN agriculture".



My own position is, deer farmers,hunters,fishers,farmers,timber,etc are constantly under attack from various groups with not so good adgendas.

We should be standing together,understanding & helping our friends, irrespective of national boundaries,this can only be good,I would think.

I have worked deer in three different countries & have great mates farming deer in some of the most diverse parts of the world,its interesting how we share similar problems.It's interesting how the solutions are often similar,if we take time to look.



I do enjoy this forum,& the great people on here,I am not here to "badger",yes,I have agendas & bias (see above). I think most would be consistent with the majority here.



Cheers Sharkey

Thanks, I print and keep this good stuff in a folder. Hopefully someday I can use the good advise.

sharkey said:

Ps. If Aus isn't in the final against Kiwi (NZ) in "The world cup",I'll be cheering for SA.

Please don't tell them though ,or they'll kick me out of the Pacific alliance.

Anyone but France then England.LOL.

Click to expand...

Bloody hell. You go to the effort of discovering paradise, help populate it with the right sort of folk and what do you get in return, anybody but England. Great. Good win for you guys on saturday. Hope you find a tight 5 worth taking to the park before it kicks off.



I am thinking about using M99 or immobilon as its called here. However it has no withdrawal period and therfore cannot go into the food chain ever. Would be interested if other countries have the same view of it.

G'day Grant.

Glad your not helping to populate OZ now,I could see us getting a few air busses full of your recent rioters.(hope thats all calmed down now).

I still have a British passport so not anti England, I just find I'm spending more time with Zimm's & Sefafricans.The're good farmers too.(better than their rugby,ROTFL).

We'll do alright in Kiwi,home town advantage.NZ is just an offshore state for us,& most of them live at Bondi now.

We have a Pacific Game Management meeting in Oct,we've all bought black shirts already.Not to support the silver ferns,but condolences on their pending early exit.



Grant.I was fortunate to have the Head deer manager for British Shooting Association (Allen M) spend five days with me last year.We had a discussion around chemical capture,& the issue you mention.

We don't have the same issues as the UK or EU down here as we have withholding times on animals.

If your just doing red deer Xylazine (& antagonist) will work alone.Fallow need something extra.Ketamine/xylazine (& antagonist)will work & may not have as many issues with withholding animals.

M99 (etorphine) & large animal immobilon are different.The large animal immobilon has 10mg/ml of acepromazine (ACP) in the mix.It may be the ACP not the opioid which knocks your deer back.

An often overlooked tranquilliser is azaperone ("stresnil",down here)it only has a six hour withholding period for us.Its also a good opioid synergist (it was the "az" in "fentaz"),so may help replace the ACP in the immobilon mix if this is the issue.

Good luck with it all.

Cheers Sharkey

Morning mate,



Have you mentioned your view of NZ to any inhabitants as I am not sure it would be well received. LOL.

Yes the riots seemed to have stopped now. It started raining and the brits are too apathetic to riot in bad weather.

Are you saying that immobilon has a withrawal period in Aus. Are you farming Sambar or Reds.



Grant

G'day Grant.

The Kiwis give as good as they get,we don't like getting beaten by each other,but if push comes to shove we know, we are always on the same side. ANZAC's

Is it the fear of rain, or the thought of a bath which stopped the riots? lol



I have never needed to consider a withholding period for immobilon.It has only really ever been popular within zoo's down here & the public opinion cycle would spin out at the thought of anyone eating exhibits.

Personally I would choose a different opioid mix & would also choose an S4 before an S8 for storage,transport & health & safety reasons (paper work,not risk).Ketamine/xylazine will do what you need with just a slightly longer recovery.For reds just xylazine.(I'm guessing you have reds & fallow,not asian's or tropical's).The withholding period is 30 days,for wilder reds add some azaperone,only six hours withholding.

Hopefully you have a good vet,not just for prescriptions & supervision,he/she may need to advocate for you too.

I sit on a couple of committees which have very experienced vet scientists whose interests include deer & work with a couple of uni's on captive & wild animal management,I'll ask around on any info or thoughts regarding withholding from immobilon.



I farm sambar,reds & a few other species & sub species.



Cheers Sharkey

Morning



I have asked around and no one appears to use anything else for reds here. I dont have too many as its not a business for me, but I do have a stag with a nice set of slippers and I would rather clip his toe nails for him than the alternative.



Are you aware of any Sambar farmed over here.

G'day Grant

Im sure xylazine will be avaliable.It was also known as Rompun & would be stlll popular with the horse vets.



I don't know of any surviving sambar in the UK,there was one or two attempts but they failed.Don't know why?They are just like a muntjac in habit,a 250kg muntjac!

How would a 250 kg big brown deer go? Hunt clubs would love them as they lead a chase like no other deer.

Its still legal down here to hunt them with sent trailing hounds.Sambar thrive on this as the kill is across all ages & ***,& it pushes deer into new areas.



You could try Javan rusa for something different & they go well running with reds (might need some shelter though).Woburn may still have some.



Cheers Sharkey

I dont believe that Rompun is used on reds here. Not sure why. It is on fallow as I hear immobulin is not suitable for them.



Would quite like to see a 250kg muntie. I think they would have to change the firearms legislation again if they existed here.



The business here seems to be largely for meat so an animal with that weight may have a market.



Cant hunt with hounds here.

G,day

Rompun (xylazine) is used to velvet all red deer down here which don't go into a hydraulic crush.

Why risk a years return from each animal, smashing the velvet in a drop floor.Also using xylazine is more humane.

Straight rompun is far better on reds than on fallow.

If you use someone with experience on fallow it would be good to get their opinion about the reds.

Is there a withholding/withdrawl period on the fallow after rompun is used?



Cheers Sharkey

Interesting reading mate.



http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/ru...t-Australia-winning-say-New-Zealand-fans.html

I don't believe it. Not our cuzbro's. lol



Seriously, they would put France behind us too.Who owns that paper?

Remember the "Rainbow warrior".



Cant wait to hear Waltzing Matilda at the final.



Cheers Sharkey

sharkey said:

I don't believe it. Not our cuzbro's. lol



Seriously, they would put France behind us too.Who owns that paper?

Remember the "Rainbow warrior".



Cant wait to hear Waltzing Matilda at the final.



Cheers Sharkey

Click to expand...

Would be good if a northern hemisphere team won and did away with supremacy of you guys. Obviously modesty precludes me from mentioning 2003 where a southern hemisphere team was only kept in the game by a bloke who could'nt understand scrumaging laws. I like the French, they hate the Brits but I dont hold that against them. Would like to live there in fact.



Would be good if some of the minnows did well. Be good for the sport for the US to do well. There are too few test playing nations and a country of that size doing well could be a real shot in the arm for the sport and be good for them to be involved in a world cup that other countries play in .