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Doe suddenly dead, question

Joined Apr 2009
1,562 Posts | 0+
cental Pennsylvania
I just discovered a dead doe this evening in the pen. I seen this doe on Friday night, she was completely normal and healthy and was the first to rush into the feeder and eat just like she normally is everynight. Yesterday I went to a church leadership seminar all day long and got home just in time to feed before dark. It was pouring down rain and none of the deer came up like they normally do when i dump the feed in, because of the rain, so I didnt see her last night. Anyway after church this afternoon, I went into the pen with my dad to put up some shade cloth and looked down and seen a white belly. My first thought was the buck got aggressive with his antlers and killed her, but there were no marks anywhere on her. No blue tounge either, She was bloated, but that could be that she was dead all day saturday while I wasnt home. The only this odd i noticed was thick yellowish mucus in the nostriles. Could she have really gotten sick from the day and a half of cool rain and die that quickly. It looks like a respitory issue with the mucus but how could it kill so fast. on Friday, she did not look sick at all, but it was 70 degrees and beautiful, Friday night it got into the upper 40's and started raining and didnt stop until this morning. the only change in my routine was some terremycin crumbles added to the feed the past couple days to help keep peak body condition before the rut. I lost a yearling buck back on Aug. 7th, he didnt look sick on the 6th, but it was a cool rain that night before and i found him dead with the same yellow mucus in his nose. If you saw my deers body condition, you would not question their health, the are all thick and healthy, i take great pride in their great body condition, that is why I am so upset that these seemingly healthy deer die without giving me symptoms of illness, to help them. For those who have dealt with pnemoninia, how quick will it kill, did the deer give you a good sign they were ill? I am worried now, I will have to watch the herd very carefully this week, hopefully this dosent spread. I cant handle another loss, I have been in this buisness 3 years, and havent even sold a deer yet, that just makes it more agonizing when you lose one. Also this doe just had a fawn on July 30 Im sure she was still feeding him, I hope he is ok, He is still kind of little with his full spotted coat.
 
Antlershed if this was a yearling doe my first suspicions would be Clostrial perfringens with the relatively good health followed by a rapid death. This is just my guess. Normally pneumonia will show you a little in a down grade of health before death. The only way to know for sure and that`s to do a necrop and check the lungs and the intestines to rule out the two. Sorry for your loss. Been there and understand.
 
Your so right Dan !!! We often over look strain A. Strain A is normally not vaccinated for with our normal protocal because we don`t see it that often. In 10 years I`ve only lost 2 deer to Clostrial perfringens strain A.
 
Yes, I would also appreciate someone explaining how deer get Clostrial diseases. I did some research on this since this post and it was all technical stuff. I would like to hear in layman's terms how they contract this disease.



Thanks...Dave
 
This is the way I understand it, I could be wrong so if somebody can help out or explain it better I would appreciat it, All deer have it and it is also in the soil, every now and then for some reason weather it be stress, change in feed, weather conditions, or what ever, it will advance in there system and kill them, with clostridial A by the time you know they have it they are dead, usually just fall over, don't even kick. There is a vaccine for it and Bill Pittenger has been working very hard on this along with Newport Laboratories and Penn State, They are also including the Fusobacterium in this vaccine.

Members of the Missouri Whitetail Breeder and Hunting Ranch Association can contact Bill or if you get their news letter it explains how to get this into your state. I have talk to several Vets about the C & D strain and most say they have never seen it kill deer, I'm not saying it will not but just that it is very rare, Most farmers have lost deer to the A strain just don't know it.

You can also buy a vaccine from PBS that only covers the A strain.

Hope this helps.
 
Dan - you are right, clostridial spores exist pretty much everywhere, in dirt, on body surfaces, in feed sources. The problems come when the spores advance and take up residence in the small intestines. It can happen slow, or fast, and that is what makes it so hard to recognize and treat.



Here is the link to an article that we found this year that helps shed some light on the different groups and strains.



http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/VM039
 
well, would it show up in a necropsy. I didnt get time to get out of work to get one on the doe that died. But guess what, my biggest best fawn was absent from the feeder last night, I figured thats ok because they sometimes dont all come up. Well becasue of the doe dying the other day, when i got home today I immediately went to check for him. Found him dead, way out on the other side of the pen no apperent reason. I must get a necrop or something done before the other 21 deer are dead, there is obviously a disease now. how long can a necrop be done after death. This one has been dead for probably 2 days, and already has an odor, is it too late? Its unfortunate the way my pens are laid out, I really try to check on all of them everyday but it is wooded so it is hard to notice everyone. Im really bumming now.
 
Sorry to hear it - my lab here in TX says that if you don't get them in the fridge, not freezer, within a few hours, and then get them to the lab w/in 24 hours, too much decomp. has already begun. I would think it worth a phone call, just in case.
 
Thats ok, I just got done dragging him out, He was bloated and had just a little odor, i couldnt imagine anyone wanting to deal with him so i buried him. I am just going to count on prayer. The Lord cares about me and my deer, if he wants them all he will take them and there is no changing that. I will continue to watch carefully the next few days if any would start to look sick I will vacinate. For now I drained and scrubbed the water tub, even though Its well water and it is changed every 3 days i dont want a chance of this spreading. I will be darting and moveing a buck and 4 does this weekend to switch up the breeding pens, I will give some wormer and antibiotics to those that I move. Every deer came up to eat and looked as healthy as ever tonight so we will see what happens. Even though this situation sucks, im going to continue to stay positive, I admit when i saw this buck fawn dead I though for a second I should just give up, cut the wire let them all out, this isnt even worth it. this was my best pedigree on the whole farm, It is just sickening to see one dead after you make all the effort to feed and care for them to the absolute best of you ability. But I still got plenty of deer I am excited about and I will trust the Lord that this is a far as this "mystery illness" goes. Thank you all for your imput.
 
If you suspect they are sick, do not give the vaccine, give the anti-toxin. Just like the Dr. won't give you a flu shot if you are showing symptoms because vaccines contain a little bit of the bug so that your body can build its own immunity. If you/they are already a little sick, the vaccine will make it worse. The anti-toxin gives a little artificial immunity, loosely speaking, so that hopefully the antibiotics can get it under control. Vaccinate once they have been healthy for a good week or two, so that it doesn't cause a relapse.



Good luck, and we wish you the best with them.
 
With clostridium the intestines will be a purplish color. I have seen it with all of the intestines being purple or just a small section. It kills very rapidly within 12-24 hrs. They will have abdominal pain thus the kicking, execept for type A which Dan has already pointed out. Clostridium usually rears its ugly head about September-October during cool rainy weather, and lush grass.



If you suspect clostridium I would make sure they have access to good quality hay, give them C&D antitoxin, then follow it up with vacinating with a good 8-way vaccine. I prefer covexin 8 but their are others you can use.
 
What is the best vaccination? I ask this because I gave my oldest an injection of covexin a couple of yrs ago and she had an allergic reaction. She fluffed her fur & her whole body including her head - started shaking. I called the vet & he told me she was having an allergic reaction & had me give her benadryl. She slept real good! Seriously though - it scared me to death. I want to give a dose to my youngest but I am afraid she will have the same reaction.