EHD Cure

Lanasvet said:

An expert is someone who is scientifically published or trained.

The rest of us are not considered, by the scientific community to be experts.

We are practitioners with experience, some have a whole lot of it, some like me do not.



Being a farmer of animals, a caretaker, a successful person involved in the animal husbandry and farming field, does not an expert make.

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Hi Lana - I think the meat of the matter here is how important experience is...in particular, as it pertains to accuracy in the advice on the medical treatment of deer.



But what I want to clarify here is this, just so you know - The definition of an expert is ''someone who is very skillful or well informed in some special field.''

Sounds to me like a deer farmer with experience would easily fall into this catagory labeled ''expert'', with the 'amount' of their experience of course being the 'measure' of their ''expertise''.



And the definition of science is ''systematized knowledge from observation, study, etc.''

In other words ''systematized facts gained through EXPERIENCE.



So...it sounds to me like, not only can a ''farmer of animals, a caretaker, a successful person in the animal husbandry and farming field(coining your phrase)'' CERTAINLY be considered an expert, but by the definition of science, it doesn't appear to be to far of a stretch to call some of them ''Scientific Experts''!!!



Fact is, science and/or scientists covers a much broader spectrum of meaning than ''Guys in white aprons studying inside a lab, walking with clip boards while surrounded by test tubes.''



Who da thunk? Some of you experienced deer farmers are actually 'scientists'.



Be well Lana!

I mean that!

Scott, Boy you hit the nail on the head. Just lost my original doe. Her name was willow. She trusted me to help her. I tried what had worked on others but I failed her. EHD just plain sucks. I may not be an expert but I know that for a fact. Rick

I hate to hear that Rick.

Thanks Sam. Our herd has been cut from 50 to about 22 in just 12 days. Ten of those left have ehd. It's been a rough year for sure. Rick

Sorry about your losses Rick, I know words may offer some comfort but it doesn't ease the pain. EHD is a cruel and brutal death. Good Luck & Good Health

ddwhitetails said:

Lana,

I could care less what the scientific community's definition is of an Expert or your definition either for that matter........anyone who has good sound advice through being through the hard knocks and helps me SAVE my animals is a true EXPERT to me......

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Dennis, the next thing she will tell us is we didn't save the animals. We didn't put the blood sweat and tears into them. We're not experts. Someone else saved them. That's the crap you hear from a liberal Obama supporter. She said in another post "she's in no mood to hear any republican bullshi$$" And how great Obama is. Well I'm in no mood to read her BS on every health & wellness issue we have come up here. She should go help PETA or HSUS or get with the QDMA boys and sniff armpits with them. Or better yet maybe go join the porch sitters & free loaders that have their hand out waiting on my money to arrive every month from the thousands I pay in taxes each year. These liberals are determined to build this base of free loading, lazy, non working, no ID required bunch of supporters? I refuse to and have NEVER acknowledged her post. Maybe everybody else will do the same. Just go back and read her post. Maybe if we ignore her she will leave.

X-Factor Whitetails said:

Dennis, the next thing she will tell us is we didn't save the animals. We didn't put the blood sweat and tears into them. We're not experts. Someone else saved them. That's the crap you hear from a liberal Obama supporter. She said in another post "she's in no mood to hear any republican bullshi$$" And how great Obama is. Well I'm in no mood to read her BS on every health & wellness issue we have come up here. She should go help PETA or HSUS or get with the QDMA boys and sniff armpits with them. Or better yet maybe go join the porch sitters & free loaders that have their hand out waiting on my money to arrive every month from the thousands I pay in taxes each year. These democrats are determined to build this base of free loading, lazy, non working, no ID required bunch of supporters? I refuse to and have NEVER acknowledged her post. Maybe everybody else will do the same. Just go back and read her post. Maybe if we ignore her she will leave.

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Mate! I come on here to discuss deer & enjoy good deer folk! Your spoiling that. OK.

If you want a political discussion,here's mine, it is that freedom of speech is one of the most valuable rights we should protect.I often have to remind myself when offended by some ignorant drongo ,that while I disagree with your opinion I would still defend to the death,your right to have those opinions,if these opinions are illegal or immoral then that is the only deal breaker.

Thats democracy!



Lanasvet,I don't feel you deserved the above rant.Heres something which usually helps me."I can only be offended by people whom I respect."



Cheers Sharkey

My experience with traind person's (vet's) I have delt with regarding treating deer with ehd has had very poor result's actualy 0 saved animal's, several dead one's. After talking to a couple farmer's that are having some luck saving there animal's I feel I have a much better chance of saving at least some of them. My vet told me if you sedate them they will die, they will never get back up.So far treating as he told me is a sure bet they will die. A farmer told me to put them down and treat them. Tonight I have the first deer on my home farm that with out a doubt has ehd. I sedated, cooled the animal and treated as I was told by a farmer not a vet or anyone trained in any class. Helped a friend do one the same way a few day's ago and that deer is doing just fine. I feel that I have at least a 70% chance that I will be able to save the deer that I had down tonight. Any way this deer did get back up and I sure do hope he pull's through.



Now I am in no way going to say all vet's out there have no idea how to treat ehd, I am sure that there are plenty that are very good. It's just on a local level in my area if you have a sick deer you are out of luck with the vet's. That is why I get most of my info from the farmer's right here on this forum if I have something that I dont know how to take care of myself I will ask or search here.

Sandridge Whitetails said:

Sorry Sharkey -

But Sharkey, since you have decided to once again stick up for Lana publically(which only serves to fuel the problem), then I have more ''truth'' to say.



And Sharkey...if you'd have followed along with Lana's posts as thoroughly as some of us have, then you would know what we're all talking about. So, I guess it could be said you are now speaking out of ''inexperience''. A bit of a jab there I know Sharkey, but also a bit of truth!



Please understand here that Mark Flickinger does not hold himself above anyone.

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Mark I come on here & engage with what I did consider to be a friendly community.Personal attacks are not good I'm sure you agree. I would have defended anyone who was the brunt of a post such as we've seen in this thread.There are many differing views on politics & debate is healthy,but this went to far & became personal.



I shall be following my own advice,which I gave in my previous post.It's a shame Mark, because I was starting to like you & considered a catch up would have breen good should we ever find ourselves in the same part of the world at anytime.I guess I'll have to miss out on all that "experience" you have.



Glad that you see it that way.



Cheers Sharkey



Edit. Mark,on reflection ,your posts are a little more assertive than in the past.In all honesty & in good faith I hope this does find you well.

All The Best. Bob

Mark and Wayne, well said! I was holding my tongue also. Hands on, in the field experience will beat google everytime. I also believe we all have Dr.Ables email address by now!

Geez Mark you ALMOST had someone liking you ....your movin up in the world.....but now you even have the " Fairdinkin Bloke" mad at you mate! don't know what I'm gonna a do with you brother......

Sharkey -



Just to point out here, not once did I lay claim to...BE THE ''ONE'' WITH THE EXPERIENCE!



So, I really don't understand why you felt you had to address me with your sarcasm of ''guess I'll have to miss out on all that 'experience' you have''



Review my writings, and if I'm mistaken about what I said...please show me here!



And Sharkey...I like you...I like everybody...and whether or not you like me doesn't/won't stop me from liking you, complete with any and all the sarcasm you could throw my way!



The fact that none of us are perfect and we all make mistakes puts us ALL on the same playing field...bar NONE!

(especially that Dennis guy)



Be Blessed Sharkey!

sharkey said:

Mate! I come on here to discuss deer & enjoy good deer folk! Your spoiling that. OK.

If you want a political discussion,here's mine, it is that freedom of speech is one of the most valuable rights we should protect.I often have to remind myself when offended by some ignorant drongo ,that while I disagree with your opinion I would still defend to the death,your right to have those opinions,if these opinions are illegal or immoral then that is the only deal breaker.

Thats democracy!



Lanasvet,I don't feel you deserved the above rant.Heres something which usually helps me."I can only be offended by people whom I respect."



Cheers Sharkey

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You think mine was a rant well here is one of her rants which I took no part in.



"OK seriously... it will be a complete waste of my time to argue with some people here re the man I voted for, for President, who thank God won and beat out that feeble-minded idiot and his brilliant cohort from Alaska... Those great Americans who so well protect the freedoms we are allowed in this country, right? aha. yeah- sell it to someone whose IQ is less than my deer's- I'm not buyin' this rhetoric. What good has Obama done? He has averted further war, has taken out major terrorists, has intelligently proposed macroeconomic recovery models to battle this severe recession in which we find ourselves following 8 years of Bush leadership. Don't get me started on bank regulators who were slacking and allowed to slack, all in the name of a "Free Market" capitalist-model-based economy. Save me the repetitive rhetoric buddy, I'm in no mood for this republican bullshit. Good night- and don't blame Obama if any of your deer suddenly develop symptoms that are inexplicable by you, because you can't figure out what is wrong with them, and what may have caused the issues, and further, how to begin to help them to recover. I am not joking about anything- Obama and his camp are top-notch people, with excellent training to address the plethora of issues that they face on a daily basis, with eloquence, respectful discussion and assessment of the issues, and have taken responsible and competent steps to alleviate our many problems. Most of which stem from republican-misrun-financial institutions.



And I'd really like to know... would you have let the banks fail? If so, the life you have today would be seriously worse than the one you would have if all of your investments and assets had disappeared over night. If you knew any of Obama's advisors, as I do, than you would be sure that he has brilliant people doing their best to get us out of this mess within the next decade, hopefully. Although it took almost 20 years and a world war to dig us out of the 1929 debacle...



When I hear this rhetoric about our "American way of life" being called into question because we have a president who happens to be a democrat, and not a daddy's boy-former-alcoholic-below-average-thinker, I get scared at the thought of how we, as an "educated" workforce are ever going to pull ourselves out of this hole we're in? I think we have a long way to go when it comes to our level of aptitude and ability to truly comprehend the present issues with which we are faced. The primary one of which is a poorly-educated populace."



So go preach to her or choir. And I don't need your help defending my rights or could careless if you or her respect me. I've made mine from the salt of the earth with NO goverment help. I'm still looking for the one Obama says built my business maybe they can come pay the taxes on what they built for me.

This last example was my First and Last (and only) rant about my political views which I shall refrain from sharing in the future, b/c I see that many cannot handle healthy discussion. Thank goodness I am financially doing well, am very well educated and have never received a day of any public assistance (or unemployment compensation) in my lifetime- otherwise I cannot possibly imagine what I'd be up against... I don't apologize for being a democrat, not even a liberal one. I do feel sorry for 'ya, Hoosier neighbor, and for any losses you may be suffering right now which would cause you to behave so unkindly towards me.



But please know, I am not going anywhere, and I will not refrain however from sharing any medical advice that I obtain from top experts in the field of deer farming, or in any of their published documents. Rarely, do I give my personal advice on how to treat a deer, unless I have had personal experience in treating a similarly-situated deer. On occasion, I will be wrong, just as are many experts in the field. By experts, I mean only the ones with degrees and lots of clinical experience. Farmers should rely more on experts.



I have never said that I am an experienced deer farmer. I have raised only one deer by myself and she is (knock on wood) presently the only healthy deer (I think) on a farm where there are more than 15 deer at present. Recently she was given a fawn with a fractured tibia to "mother" and I will now be responsible for them both. I have experience in rehabilitating deer with fractured legs, with open wounds, with skin infections, colitis-enteritis and with fungal infections (not mites). I learned a bit from Mark early on when my deer first fully fractured her tibia on how to sedate her properly which meant a lot to me, but more importantly his wife Marsha gave me the most relevant advice that I needed to have at that time. Leave it to a lady to be so insightful and kind.



To learn as much as I have theoretically, I have talked to top deer experts, two from the University of Illinois, one from Purdue University, one from Texas, and have corresponded with Scott H. who I consider a high-level expert and kind man. Sharkey, you are a true kind heart and it's more than clear that you are a gentleman and I appreciate your words stated in my defense. I enjoy reading your posts very much, and I have learned a lot from you. Mostly, I have learned how your industry is lightyears away from ours in the US. It is very clear, by the content of your messages.



Last week, I limed the pens on the farm where my Rosa now lives, and have introduced pro-biotics. This is a major step forward and it has taken me over 9 months to get this headway. Also, all of the deer were vaccinated this year, and I think that the reason for this was the clear health of my doe. I pray that He will keep her well and safe, and that I will continue to learn from the experts and the practitioners, combined.

re: deer losses



Scott, I'm very sorry to hear about your doe. I feel for you, and I am truly sorry that for now you are unable to come up with a treatment protocol that works. I am very sad that you are going through this tough time, and I hope that you are able to come out of it ok. If now this year, then hopefully next year.

I've had a tough year with my dog who is suffering from an autoimmune disorder called Myasthenia Gravis (it's a neuromuscular junction disease) that affects her swallowing and esophageal and GI motility. It's awful, and I've dumped thousands and thousands of dollars into her treatment. I've seen more than 9 DVMs and finally was able to find a DVM specialist with a lot of neurological case experience to help me to stabilize my dog. It's been a tough year, but I've learned a lot and my poodle is in remission. I felt my worst during the darkest part of the storm this past April, but slowly the clouds parted and life returned to the little pup. During this time, I think I spent a bit too much time on the computer, but now that she's done a 360 turnaround, I am starting to slowly re-engage with the world outside of poodles and deer. I hope that you will soon exit the dark part of this storm, safe and sound, and positive-minded as always.

Sorry for everyone's losses. Thankfully, they are deer, they are animals, and not people.

lana

Hi Lanasvet, I do'nt think anyone ment any harm. It's just with something as nasty as ehd if you make the wrong move you animal's will die, and still may even if you do the right thing's. When a friend's deer became infected with ehd I followed the advice of someone I think you would concider an expert from a certin university that has a lot of experiance with deer. All of those deer treated as advised by this person are dead, I think they all learn as they go you cant learn everything in a class. And this year seem's to be the worst ever or at least around here. Any way my friend's deer are all gone now and I started having problem's with ehd two week's back in my animal's. So far three deer treated as I was told to by a farmer from a southern state that deal's with this every year are still alive and seem to be 100% normal, time will tell. The treatment that I use now seem's to work or at least so far. The expert from the university told me the way I planed to treat them would kill them for sure, he was wrong.



I hate to give advice to anyone on something as serious as ehd because this is the first time I have had it hit me so I am learning as I go. That is why I do think the best advice will come from a farmer that has treated this many time's and has learned what at least help's save some of them.



I dont see any harm in posting link's related to ehd, I am sure we have all read everything out there related to ehd or at least I know I have. I wish you and your deer well and do hope that you never have to see animal's die from this virus. You will feel helpless as you see them go and feel like there is nothing that you can do.

Lana,

No one has asked you to leave these forums....I think you honestly have a kind heart and are trying to help anyone you can and that is admirable. I got a little upset when you made the comment about Scott being one of only a few experts on these forums.....when their are many farmers on here dealing with this EHD on their farms and in my book are experts at what they do......not from reading books but from talking with other farmers who have been there and suffered through the tough times of battling this virus. Yes getting advice from people with top degrees and from the Internet are good but getting it from people who have been on the front lines battling the virus is much more valuable in my opinion. There are a lot of deer suffering this year as well as their owners .....let's all band together and do what we can to help.......I pray for each and every one of you struggling with this awful virus on your farm.....may we all receive an early frost soon!

Lets just say we all believe scott has ALL the tools to fight that thing(Deer Smarts,Meds,Common Sense) and he is still taking a hit. I first listened to a vet 2 years ago and that was the same time i lost my first deer. As far as i am concerned a person can have a piece of paper that says they are a vet but i am not taking my advice from that vet...Unless They Own Deer!!!!!!!!!!

I just put out my bug zapper the kind that have the blue light and draws bugs in an electric shocks and kills them . I sat it on cement to see if it kills the nu-see-ums gnat and to my amazement there where a bunch dead under it so just thought I would let you guys know it helps but I'm sure it won't kill them all .