Fawn Count!

tom l said:

hey guys

i ( along with my wife) are bottle feeding 3 doe fawns, 20/28,sudden explosion,sundowner. seems like they are more aggresive this year, just about mob us when we feed! only my 2nd go at this. have a couple buck fawns on their mothers. one doe left, man is she BIG bellied, got to have at least three coming! i tell my wife every week she has to fawn this week, but as of yet, she is a no go. so this week i am claiming that she will not fawn out, maybe that will work!

tom

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Tom - The telll-tale sign that they are close is when they begin to bag out. If you can pet her, reach under her and feel if she has a big and tight milk bag.

If you can't pet her, then when you are directly behind her, look to she is she is filled up.

After you know your does, you can tell when they are 48 hours or less. I say ''when you know your does'' because they will vary some in just how much they bag out prior to giving birth.

Hope the best for ya!

11 buck.. 9 doe fawns so far. Lost one buck fawn that was born really small, couldnt save him. But I am so happy to say that all other fawns are doing well, the youngest fawns are three weeks old, I've been really blessed with good fawn survival to this point despite some nasty storms the last couple weeks. I still have two bred does to fawn, last one to fawn will have hers in mid july, she didnt take to AI.

ddwhitetails said:

Well Matt I love bottle Feds too.....however, there are a lot of good reasons NOT to have bottle Feds.......I have to disagree with you on the bottle Feds being easier to run through and handle in the chute systems....my experience has been just the opposite.......my bottle Feds no what is going on and the last thing they want to do is run through the chute system....so this being said they have no fear of humans and they pretty much do what they want......they make things so much harder for me anyhow.........bucks that are bottle fed are 100 % more likely to gore you come fall and if you live to tell about it I'm certain you will have many scars to show someone........I know where your coming from with this Matt.....I bought many of my deer from Rod and Diane Miller and love them dearly.......but I am finding out that if your in your pens a lot and messin around the deer they will tame up enough that they won't be nervous fence crashers....this is the main thing you want in my opinion......now I have plenty of bottle raised deer both buck and doe cause I started out bottle feeding everything......but through years of doing it I think mother raised fawns especially buck are much healthier.......and less likely to be deadly to humans .......now this being said.....I will always have a few doe and buck that you can pet on the farm and that's just because I like it that way.......but come fall.....the only thing I enter the pen with to feed or anything else for that matter is my skid loader.........trust me....those bucks can seem tame as a dog one second....add a little testosterone and they are killers.......just my opinion........hope this helps.....

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I guess i would say im with matt on this one. I have always bottlefed all our deer. A buck is a buck in the fall no matter if he is bottlefed or not. You must use your head and respect them at all times in the fall. I would much rather be able to be close to them and see if there is ever a problem for 10 months out of the year and keep at bay for the other 2 months. If they are not going for stockers they are cut but either way if you respect them as you should at that time of the year there should not be a problem!!!

We bottle feed our bucks for three main reasons:



1. We need a calm herd. There is a bunch of farming activity around our property and the ones that are not bottle fed seem to drag along the ones that are.



2. We can keep a closer eye on their health. The minute we notice any that start to get sick, we can begin treatment if necessary.



3. We like being able to get close to them as their antlers are growing.



We do find that in our scenario/facility, the bottle fed are easier for us to handle.



We don't have a drop chute or handling facility just yet, but it's in our plans.



We also cut all of the antlers in fall unless they are being sold for stockers.



We don't go in the pens with them in fall and winter until the antlers drop, and if we do, we always have a spotter to watch if any are getting close. We don't trust them at all during the fall and winter.



On another note, we did have a doe have still born triplets this year. It appeared that the smallest one must have died inside of her and poisoned the other two fawns. Two of them were almost fully developed, but small. The third was all mangled and twisted. Any one else ever experience this?

I have had a few NOT bottle fed bucks over the years and yes I could get them tamed down and come up every night within ten feet. BUT as soon as you do anything out of the norm (moving deer, darting) or bring someone out to see the deer they take off. I hate that. I have been doing this a while and have never once had a problem with a bottle fed buck. Yeah some days youll go out and one will have an attitude but common sense tells you to give him space for a day. There are far more Plus's to having bottlefeds than negatives in my opinion

33 fawns so far with 2 does left to go. Very lopsided this year so far we have 26 buck fawns and 7 doe fawns.

If you plan to sell your bucks for shooters you should not bottle feed them! The last thing a preserve wants are tame bucks. We bought shooters for the first time last year and that is definitely something we ask about.



We do have a handling facility and agree with DDWhitetails, they are much easier to run through the chute if they are NOT bottle fed.

Yes I did forget to mention that we need to remember the deer are going to hunting preserves....most of them anyway and I can promise you as Wild Rivers said above, no hunting preserves want bottle fed bucks.......I have heard of some stories of preserves that bought some that were bottle fed and they were attacking their clients.......not good for business........

Well im not going to say what I want to on here. If you go come to our preserve I guarantee you you wont be able to tell me which deer is bottle fed or isnt. And its that way for MOST preserves. Have a great day guys

I guess I'm wondering from a hunters stand point.........If I'm in a Tree Stand,Box Blind,Ground Blind, Ect.........HOW in the world could you tell the difference in a bottle fed or a momma raised buck? I have raised both and seen both outside the pen and when they get a wiff of what makes thier sticker pick out......................They ain't stoppin for a cookie from ol dad!

Whitetail Sanctuary said:

I guess I'm wondering from a hunters stand point.........If I'm in a Tree Stand,Box Blind,Ground Blind, Ect.........HOW in the world could you tell the difference in a bottle fed or a momma raised buck? I have raised both and seen both outside the pen and when they get a wiff of what makes thier sticker pick out......................They ain't stoppin for a cookie from ol dad!

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What about all the bucks that are hunted when that ''wiff'' isn't available?



When you get to thinking about it, and I just did, it's hard to put ''momma raised'' all in one catagory and ''bottle fed'' all in one catagory as it pertains to the dimeanor of the deer.



I've had bottle feds that soon after they were weaned I couldn't come close to petting them.

On the other hand, I've had momma raised that I could pet.



The variables, other than the individualism in each deer(which is significant in and of itself) are: - When bottle feeding, how much time did you spend with them after or between feedings. Did you spend alot of time with them, a little time with them, or none at all?

The same element of ''time spent with them'' applies to 'momma raised' - How much time did you spend in the pens in and around the fawns. Another factor that weighs in on the 'momma raised' is - How tame are their mommas?



Like I said...pretty hard to catoragize each.



I've sold some shooter bucks before and had to tell the buyer ''Don't let this buck see your hunter eating a sandwich, cause he'll come running in to steal the hunter's sandwich.'' And that's a fact...he would have! The buck was a bread eater, and when he would hear the sound of a loaf of bread being opened or see bread being ''frisbee-ed'' through the air...here he'd come

And some other shooter bucks I've sold went with the warning label of ''Warning...this buck WILL kill your hunter if he encounters him. Best hope your hunter hasn't killed his buck yet, cause he'll be killing this one in self defense...or be killed himself''.



Personally, I like think it's best to have the bucks ''momma raised'' and spend just enough time in the pens with them when they are fawns to keep them from bangin the fence.



Just my take on things...

I had a buck a few years ago that was bottle fed and very aggressive. As soon as I would walk up to the pen he would be at the gate waiting for me. There was a period of a couple weeks that I would have to lean a step ladder against the fence and dump feed over the fence. There was no way to even get into the pen at all. One day when I was walking up to the gate he charged and busted through the gate into the alley way where I was. Trust me it is no fun being up against the fence with a buck. I know there is a big difference in bucks. Some are bottle fed and are fine. I am not saying it is wrong to bottle feed bucks if it is working for you, just sharing the experience I had.

I am certainly not telling anyone what they should or should not do as far as bottle feeding.....Matt you posted earlier about the bottle feeding and what you thought and then asked for others opinions....this is what I am doing is giving my opinion.......I have talked to many preserve owners that will not buy bottle fed bucks.........they simply do not want to take the chance of having one of their clients killed by an angry animal that lost it's fear of humans.......any buck whether bottle raised or not can turn on a human....however, when you bottle raise it increases these odds drastically........but if this is what you do and it works for you to each his own. To me it's hard enough to market your stockers and I certainly don't want to give any future customers a reason not to want to buy my animals......just my opinion......

buckeyewta said:

I had a buck a few years ago that was bottle fed and very aggressive. As soon as I would walk up to the pen he would be at the gate waiting for me. There was a period of a couple weeks that I would have to lean a step ladder against the fence and dump feed over the fence. There was no way to even get into the pen at all. One day when I was walking up to the gate he charged and busted through the gate into the alley way where I was. Trust me it is no fun being up against the fence with a buck. I know there is a big difference in bucks. Some are bottle fed and are fine. I am not saying it is wrong to bottle feed bucks if it is working for you, just sharing the experience I had.

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Mark - I've had 2 bucks that performed exactly like your descibing. Beginning somewhere around the 1st of November till they shed their antlers, their mission EVERYDAY, BAR NONE...was to kill me. And I mean to say, they NEVER missed a day. They would hear or see my truck coming, and here they would come!

I had to do what you did Mark. I watered and grained by leaning into the fence and depositing each into dishes placed right next to the fence, and through in hay up over the top.

I've had other bucks that would have certain days out of the season that you couldn't go in with them, and I could tell just by looking at them when those days were. But these 2 rascals...once thier trigger was tripped in the fall, it was everyday!!!!



Deer farmers - Do not ever take a chance with an antlered buck that has his hair up and his ears back...because from this posture, there are no more steps leading to the attack on you...from that posture it is an ALL OUT explosional charge!!!

Sandridge Whitetails said:

Mark - I've had 2 bucks that performed exactly like your descibing. Beginning somewhere around the 1st of November till they shed their antlers, their mission EVERYDAY, BAR NONE...was to kill me. And I mean to say, they NEVER missed a day. They would hear or see my truck coming, and here they would come!

I had to do what you did Mark. I watered and grained by leaning into the fence and depositing each into dishes placed right next to the fence, and through in hay up over the top.

I've had other bucks that would have certain days out of the season that you couldn't go in with them, and I could tell just by looking at them when those days were. But these 2 rascals...once thier trigger was tripped in the fall, it was everyday!!!!



Deer farmers - Do not ever take a chance with an antlered buck that has his hair up and his ears back...because from this posture, there are no more steps leading to the attack on you...from that posture it is an ALL OUT explosional charge!!!

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Mark did you remove the antlers from the 2 rascals after they rubbed out?? Every farmer i know that does bottle feed(also a few that dont) have their rack removed after rubbing out. You still have to respect these deer for what they are. That should always happen. I guess i and a most that i know have been lucky so far and never had a problem. I have a pied that seems to not like girls and gets a little worked up when they come down to the pen but a whack or two on the snout took care of his problem for the fall. If your no selling the bucks that year why take a chance by leaving the racks on?? That is asking for trouble sooner or later. Most times it will be one of your other deer that pays the price!!

Mike - No I did not remove their antlers. One turned killer at 3, the other at 4. I kept the antlers on in hopes of selling them. Sold one at 4, the other at 5, so I had 2 years of dealing with their ''attitude and will to kill''.



But I am a huge advocate of taking all antlers off at all ages...first and foremost for the other deer's sake that are in with them. Safer for me too, but I can always read a buck through his posture and know when it's time to leave the pen or not to go in at all...so I have some control, as opposed to having no control over what goes on with the deer in the pen when antlers are left on, ie fighting!

Well, we are done fawning here! Out of 6 does, all 6 dropped a fawn. We had 3 doelings and 3 bucklings born. One buckling was born during a huge storm and was chilled and died despite our best efforts to save him. But, at least we didn't lose a doe.

20 total with one doe lingering!

Josh



Im curious to hear your thoughts on bottle feeding vs. not bottle feeding. You asked the question



Thanks

I have no problem either way if a farm makes the choice to hand rear or not. I try not to bottle feed bucks if at all possible, but it does happen every year. Bottle fed males are dangerous regardless of what anyone says. No one will change my mind that they are not.



But again I have no issues with anyone doing it it is a personal choice.



The only other concern that I personally have, as the point I made above is really irrelevant, is that you have an industry like ours that has an end market. This is a great end market, different than most any other I know. In general our public relations as a whole is ok as we mature.



I will tell you that it is a hard sell, a near impossible sell, to the public, showing in one breath a farmer bottle feeding a buck and in the next breath showing pictures of harvest. Or even promoting that notion.



Regardless of how wild the animal is or anything to that affect this is a sticking point for many outside this industry.



I hope that is a fair assessment for you.