fawn scouring

John,

I may try mixing not sure yet......going to see how they do on the red cap all you can eat method first.......as long as it doesn't take me 50 gallons to wean a fawn. I will let everyone know how it goes good or bad......should i have problems then I will be honest and let everyone know. Like I said before, you are the first one Ihave ever heard with negative thoughts on the red cap.......everyone that I have talked with that has ever used it loves it.........Sometimes I think the milk replacers are packed with a little too much and the fawns little bellies have trouble handling it......hey maybe the best answer is mixing the red cap 50/50. John I don't want you to think I don't respect your knowledge as i appreciate everyones experiences and knowledge that you get off this site. Especially those who have been in this industry a lot longer than me.

She is still really loose!!! I cut the mix like you said and am now adding 1/8 cup save a kid, 1 tsp probios, and 3 cups red cap. I have been really busy the past few days with other things, sorry for the delay in response. I have a buck fawn whose mother neglected (first fawn ever) He just started eating good this morning but is extremely constipated. (Talk about a mix, one clogged up, and the other squirting water!) It moaned and fel over when it finally passed a turd that looked like it was 70% sand. I am about to administer an enema of warm water to try to help him. I think he was constipated because of lack of fluids. didn't eat 6 ounces in day and a half. Eating good now!



Thanks for your halp and all your concern. You Guys are always so helpful with your priceless information



Will report back on the duo later tonight



God bless you all

F.B.

We have used Raw goats milk the last 2 years with great results, however, I have been concerned about the facilities of the operation where we get our milk from and the risk of ecoli,etc... so we switched to whole cows milk this year, we have only been using for 1 1/2 weeks now and eveything seems to be going well. One difference I will tell you is the fawns seem to poop more often, on goats milk it was once a day, on whole milk it is aleast twice a day and sometimes 3 times, this tells me i think, that the whole cows milk is not being absorbed into their systems the same as the raw goats milk but this may not be a major issue, we will know when we see the final result of bottle feeding,



We also add 1 cup of LOL kid replacer to the whole cows milk (1 gallon), we may increase up to 3 cups not sure yet, we did this same thing with the raw goats milk with good success but did not really see much difference when we excluded the replacer with the raw goats milk.



We also do not feed all they will drink, we start at 4oz first day by the end of the first week we try to be up to 6oz each feeding by the end of the 2nd week we try to be up to 9oz and so on, we only increase fron 1/2 to 1oz at a time to not overload their system. Our fawns are always hungry and that is the way I like them, when the barn door opens they get up and start crying for milk and this is before they ever see me, they still want to suck after they are done and that is what I like to see... but i dont want to starve them either.



All this talk has me concerned, did we do the right thing or not by switching but we have already started and will hope for the best, so far so good........

Ask 20 deer farmers a questions and you get 21 different answers.... but that's what is so great about these forums.

I know farmers that have successfully raised fawns on just about every option out there. It doesn't mean that one is necessarily better than another, just which one that you are most comfortable with. I have also seen/heard from friends that have had issues with every type of milk/replacer etc... out there, including problems with regular old red cap milk.

Feed whatever works for you. But, I personally would not feed my fawns all they want. That's not how their mother feeds them and after all that is who we are trying to be.

WillPenn Whitetails said:

Ask 20 deer farmers a questions and you get 21 different answers.... but that's what is so great about these forums.

I know farmers that have successfully raised fawns on just about every option out there. It doesn't mean that one is necessarily better than another, just which one that you are most comfortable with. I have also seen/heard from friends that have had issues with every type of milk/replacer etc... out there, including problems with regular old red cap milk.

Feed whatever works for you. But, I personally would not feed my fawns all they want. That's not how their mother feeds them and after all that is who we are trying to be.

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So very true Mike....

Rick said:

We have used Raw goats milk the last 2 years with great results, however, I have been concerned about the facilities of the operation where we get our milk from and the risk of ecoli,etc...

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I often wonder how using raw milk from uncertified herds would affect our status? Simply put, we are talking raw animal product from herds that are NOT TB and Bruc certified and feeding it to our certified fawns.

ddwhitetails said:

John,

I may try mixing not sure yet......going to see how they do on the red cap all you can eat method first.......as long as it doesn't take me 50 gallons to wean a fawn.

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DD, if you elect to mix, just remember to mix the replacer as instructed on the label and THEN mix it 50/50 with whole milk. Indeed you can fluctuate the richness of the milk to meet your fawns needs. If the fawn can handle the suggested mix, then mix as per instruction. If you run into problems, then thin the mix out a bit... You would be surprised at how easily you can raise and lower the formula to find what works the best.

dcwhitetails said:

John ,Glad you posted.i always like hearing Both Sides,we would be in trouble if we got only one side of any story! after few yrs Reading forums. i have come to listen up when you get something out of John.

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Thanks DC, much appreciated....

florida boy said:

She is still really loose!!! I cut the mix like you said and am now adding 1/8 cup save a kid, 1 tsp probios, and 3 cups red cap. I have been really busy the past few days with other things, sorry for the delay in response. I have a buck fawn whose mother neglected (first fawn ever) He just started eating good this morning but is extremely constipated. (Talk about a mix, one clogged up, and the other squirting water!) It moaned and fel over when it finally passed a turd that looked like it was 70% sand. I am about to administer an enema of warm water to try to help him. I think he was constipated because of lack of fluids. didn't eat 6 ounces in day and a half. Eating good now!





God bless you all

F.B.

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FB, just remember to make slow subtle changes. Making quick and drastic changes in the diet could cause more harm then good. If all else fails, consult with a Vet as dehydration happens really fast in these little buggers when they have the squirts. You can check for dehydration by lifting the lip and pushing your finger on the gums. If it stays whitish for some time after you removed your finger, then it is possible the fawn is dehydrated. Also, you can pinch some of the skin and pull it up - if it stands on its own, again this is an indicator of dehydration. Grape Gatorade or electrolytes has worked great for me in the past. Please don't be intimidated by calling a Vet. That's what they are there for.



Concerning the constipation, when a fawn is born usually the mother will lick the rear and remove the pasty plug from the anus. However, I have found several fawns, it was more common in our lambs, where the plug does not get removed by mom and it then sets up like a sticky silly putty, obstructing the bowel movements. Simply lube up your pinky and insert it in the anus of the fawn to be sure the plug has in fact been removed as soon as you pull your fawns. This has become a regular routine for me when I tag fawns. You can also lightly squeeze on the region around the anus and feel if it is obstructed. I have also had the fawn work the pasty plug out while rearing with a warm damp towel.





Good luck,

John









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I feed my Fawns at 6am, they are just now wanting more.None of that 2 oz here and there...Their belly don't bloat they are comfortable when done eating not looking like they will pop! They eat, then play,then lay down... than come for more on their own in around 5 hours...

I love the red cap. They are doing great,Even the one I pulled at 3 hours old (emergency)

John

I love everything you say I normally hang on to every word, You know what you are talking about and look in to things I didn't believe it before I tried it I said ..."if they were getting what they needed they wouldn't need to drink that much."...(I was wrong they handle this much better, no residue left over in bottles, no bloating everything great...not one downside other than it will cost me a little more...But I believe in this so much more... I have seen the difference in so many ways.



PS not looking for a fight I just don't want anyone discouraged from trying because I think it can save fawns lives

I;ve been feeding red cap as much as they want no scours no bloat everything fine so far. Fawns are growing fast to bigger than ones on mothers.Was going to post pictures but wife took camera card will try to post pictures when she gets home to show how well they are doing.

As I have said all along, if it works for you then don't change a thing. We all know how difficult it can be to find our niche.



I am not looking for a fight either, but was singled out by the red cap milk crew because I suggested that the milk may be the culprit for scours, as it was in my case. This then led to a deep discussion on nutritional values and the possibilities of malnourishment.



I really don't care if a person feeds their deer dog or cat food as long as it works for them. If it works, then that's all that matters. I do think it is being a little irrational on our parts to not look at all the equations and weight them out accordingly when someone is asking for help.



When I have time, I will continue to offer my observations and suggestions when someone is asking for help, regardless of who's feelings or pride it affects. I have never been a politically correct kind of guy and basically call it as I see it. I hope the folks on here can respect that.



The funniest part about this industry today is, it reminds me a lot of my sisters beauty salon. As soon as one lady gets or tries something new, all the other women soon do the same, just so they can say they have one or are doing it too, regardless of what the widget is.



Last year the red cap milk was starting to be talked about as the new and exciting solution for feeding fawns. The year before it was Fox Valley, the previous year before it was Zoologic and so on and so on... Unfortunately in the red cap situation, last year a fellow having fawns at around the 10-11 week old range, were breaking legs left and right. We are not talking one or two broken legs, we are talking three and four legs on one fawn broken from just running. Needless to say, after four or five fawns broke their legs, he sent one of them off for a necropsy and found out it was malnourished.



This could have been due to a couple reasons including the feed he fed his doe with and from the milk he used to bottle feed with. As I understand it, the milk was the more probable culprit in this situation. Is this something that could happen in every case? We don't know and it may be a bit early and unfair to suggest red cap milk as the new wonder solution for feeding fawns.



Please understand what it is your are feeding your animals with, and the consequence, before jumping on the bandwagon and trying the newest fads. Consult with your Vet and ask his professional opinion before using. Keep in mind, my Vet did tell me to use the whole milk a few feedings "if" it was the only thing I had available at the time. Then as soon as I could, get something with higher fat, protein and mineral levels and slowly transition the fawn to the replacer. I tried the milk for 2 weeks and did not like to results. It may have been that I didn't feed it in the larger quantities that seems to go hand and hand with the suggestions from the folks that are using it and like it.



I am not trying to hurt peoples reputation or feelings, but rather trying to educate everyone as to the experiences I had, and others have had using a product. Many of the people that visit this forum do not have access to Vets that work with deer, so they rely on the information that gets posted here. I felt really bad about all the fawns that had broke their legs and had to be put down. I also felt even worse for the fellow that had a great crop of A/I babies and lost most of them to malnourishment.



I agree, red cap is a much cleaner and easier product to use, but at what price to the fawn, is all I am insinuating. I also agree, and so does our Vet, that red cap will indeed save a fawns life - if it's the only thing you have available at the time and fed short term....



Good luck to everyone, and I hope you find what works best for you and primarily your animals....









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John very well put i agree with alot of what you say not all thowe.As far as feeding red cap if you are going to feed it i would make sure you feed fawn all they want so they get more nutrision. Your buddy probaly was not feeding enuff milk. You don't see calves running around breaking legs and there bones are much bigger. Plus you should see how big RDM Wildbunches deer are from last year they are as big as most 2-3year olds and they fed red cap as well as some others i no. Not saying replacer no good but red cap much easier.

It's funny how every one uses a different system. I'm a new farmer in my second year bottle feeding. "Every day presents a new challenge!" I appreciate these posts so much. In FL we are all new to the industry. The closest vet we have that will attempt to do deer is near north GA. The few good cattle vets have seen the fragile state of deer, and realized the values of them, and are scared to try something new. I've learned that there are many ways to solve problems through these forums and for that I am thankful.



The doe fawn is still realy runny. i decreased the save a kid to 1/8 cup to 3 cups red cap, with still the probios. I gave her 1/2 cc batril 100 incase the slime is from an infection.



The buck fawn received an enema this morning. a little bloddy poop later, but it sms all is back to normal. He is drinking regular now.



Fawns are 6 days old now and drinking 5-6 oz 5-6 times a day. Is this too much. They seem satisfied when done. They never look bloated or pot bellied.



If doe is still sliming in morning, I will cut her back to regular red cap mixed 4:1 w/ water. As I remember i did this once a few years back with teo orphans and it settled things.



The Probios I use I got from Tractor supply. The diretions say 4 grams/head/day for goats. I give aprox. 1 tsp per head/day too much or not enough?



Thanks again guys

your amateur but humble friend

Robert the Florida Boy

Try putting some fesh dirt in pen every day or two this will do same thing as probiotics and is natural all fawns in the wild eat dirt. It still will not hurt to countinue giving amount you already are giving along with the dirt.

Florida, Sounds like you are on the right track. I like to add a tea spoon of pure pumpkin (Libbys) and a tea spoon plain yogart to every 6 to 8 oz. Its good for the belly and gives them a little something more to digest. Work good for us. Allen

You want to be careful using Baytril in fawns can affect their growth plates. I like to use Nuflor when an antibiotic is needed.

Florida Boy, have you had your fawns checked for e-coli? I had two that were passing the same slimey mucus poop that your are talking about and it WAS e-coli. I treated one with excenal and the other with Target Probiotics paste. They are both doing well now but it was very touch and go for a while. It would be a good idea to get them checked if you haven't done so yet. If you have any questions give me a call 918-381-3255

Good luck.