I would like the opinion's of some of the experienced breeder's about genetic improvement in a deer herd. I have a few doe's that I believe are good doe's a couple of them may be real good doe's and a few more that I will replace with there first offspring . But my question is how do I know that the buck that I am doing the a.i. with is an improvement that will pass to his offspring. What do you look for in a buck? I know there is a lot more to a buck than his size, there are a lot of big well breed deer out there that cant seem to produce. Is it a waste of semen to throw a top end type buck in a so so type doe? Can you see much improvement in a single generation of a.i. or is the money spent on semen better off put in to replacement doe's. I know today it's either get good deer or get out. And at this point I have to much in to get out. Do most of you like to take a chance on a young buck or stick to an older more proven animal. Interested in hearing how other's are working at improving there animal's. At this point I am more interested in building better doe's. One draw back to the high dollar semen is that I am only able to split a straw one time.
Genetic improvement ???
- Thread starter RLAwhitetails
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- genetic improvement
By using semen and keeping your doe fawns then puting semen into them you should be able to make what ever you want. Some bucks may not pass their genes to their male offspring but the doe they produce may pass on their traits. In my opinion I think ai is the way to improve your genes. Buying deer cost more and it is harder to recoop your money you spent. It may work for some but far more people loose goin this route. Although if you can buy good deer cheap enough why not just be careful how much you spend. Some lines seem to sell better when certain people own them but for others they just can't seem to get crap out of them.
Joined Aug 2009
629 Posts | 0+
Winnsboro, LA
RLA, Ill try my opinion. First of all we are living in a tough economy with an even tougher end market. You will have to make your own decisions regarding the current quality of your animals. When I say quality, it encompasses different angles such as health(resistant to disease /EHD etc.), passdown,pedigree, and the like. Do your homework on all the bucks you choose to breed with. I breed for specific traits. I study patterns in particular sires and use these in my doe that is lacking in that department. There are good and bad to using yearlings. First they are unpredictable. If you decide to use one, study his history on paper. I used two this year,we shall see. Something to remember about deer as I heard it: "All I know about breeding deer is that I don't know nothing about breeding deer!"-Its sometimes true- Jason
Joined Oct 2009
3,165 Posts | 1+
upstate ny
I think it all boils down to what direction you want to go.If your pockets are deep enough to run with the big players you will have to use the hottest stuff on the market.Then there are some of them that are not producing. Some breed for paper and the rest of the bright one's breed for consistant stockers. Most of your good does will make them with decent semen but most of your good does will not make breeders with any kind of semen.Yearling's are a shot in the dark. There are a bunch of high pedigreed yearlings on paper this year that are dink's and then there are some low pedigreed yearlings that are huge but will be worth crap because of no pedigree. To those that breed for paper.Pick yur poision and your direction then run with it!!!
Joined Apr 2009
2,617 Posts | 0+
Edgar, WI
Four Seasons Whitetails said:
Josh let it go. Some people are so filled with so much darkness they can't see straight. Anyone reading his post can see it is filled with negatives. Heck he called anyone who tries to produce deer that look good on paper as not being "bright" so trying to reason with people with no reason is useless.
Everyone can see it is no accident when a farm pays attention to detail while choosing breeding combinations that it works both in production and in the return when offering animals for sale.
Joined Oct 2009
3,165 Posts | 1+
upstate ny
Josh i consider a big player as someone that is big enough or lucky enough to be able to afford to use the top bucks or semen every year. Its simple enough some have had enough success to be able to do that and some are small with lesser animals that are not able to use some of the bigger stuff. Its plain to see that in todays deer you are not getting into auctions unless you use the very top stuff. Heck i know of some very,very,very good stuff that didnt make the cut at the chupps sale coming up because there is such great stuff being used. Some breed for auctions,some breed for shooters and some breed by looking at past pedigree's.
Roger i really dont give a rats *** of what you think i say. If you were bright enough to read what the sentence says you would have read(Some breed for paper and the rest of the bright one's breed for consistant stockers) Meaning that in todays world the guy that raises consistant great looking stockers that the ranches are looking for are sold out of animals. Mabey if you were still doing that you would know what i was talking about.Never once did i say a guy was not bright by breeding by paper.To each there own as far as their choices of how they breed their deer. But seeing how you wanted to bring it up.How have your deer sold at auction as of late???
Roger i really dont give a rats *** of what you think i say. If you were bright enough to read what the sentence says you would have read(Some breed for paper and the rest of the bright one's breed for consistant stockers) Meaning that in todays world the guy that raises consistant great looking stockers that the ranches are looking for are sold out of animals. Mabey if you were still doing that you would know what i was talking about.Never once did i say a guy was not bright by breeding by paper.To each there own as far as their choices of how they breed their deer. But seeing how you wanted to bring it up.How have your deer sold at auction as of late???
Guy's just asking how some of you that have had good luck with a.i. to improve your animal's went about doing this. Just asking how do I, we that are or will use a.i. can know that we are going the right way. I may be wrong but I think that the one plus to lower deer prices is that it has opened thing's up for the small guy like my self to be able to buy and use a quality of genetic's today that could not have been done a few year's ago. My main question is how many generation's of a.i. do most of you think it take's to realy see a major improvment. I dont think that you have to spend a large amount of cash to buy great genetic's today. I am not in the breeder market or never will be, I just want to use and raise good quality animal's that will make a profit when sold. Just have to have animal's that are good enough to pay the feed bill's.
As far as breeding for the way the animal look's on paper, even I look at the way the fawn will look on paper even though I am not looking to raise or sell top end breeder's. I do want doe fawn's that are good enough to sell,cant eat or feed all of them. From what I have seen from a lot of the farm's I have been to there is a need out there for good doe's, not top quality breeder's but good doe's. I was shocked at the number of buck's I have seen that I would kill as cull's in the wild for size / age, no way can they pay the feed bill in the pen. Have seen the farm's on the top end as well, awesome to look at some of those buck pen's out there.
Again not looking to start any trouble, just good advice from someone that know's how thing's work.
As far as breeding for the way the animal look's on paper, even I look at the way the fawn will look on paper even though I am not looking to raise or sell top end breeder's. I do want doe fawn's that are good enough to sell,cant eat or feed all of them. From what I have seen from a lot of the farm's I have been to there is a need out there for good doe's, not top quality breeder's but good doe's. I was shocked at the number of buck's I have seen that I would kill as cull's in the wild for size / age, no way can they pay the feed bill in the pen. Have seen the farm's on the top end as well, awesome to look at some of those buck pen's out there.
Again not looking to start any trouble, just good advice from someone that know's how thing's work.
Joined Apr 2009
2,617 Posts | 0+
Edgar, WI
Four Seasons Whitetails said:
Well fourseasons my personal finances are not really any of your business. But since you are asking, the ballpark figure for deer farm sales in 2011 has been right around $350,000 to $400,000. Thanks for asking
How have sales been for you?
Joined Apr 2009
2,617 Posts | 0+
Edgar, WI
RLAwhitetails said:
Rodney,
You should easily see a marked improvement on the bucks being grown on your farm in the first 2 or 3 crops of bucks being grown out.
One thing I recommend keeping in mind is to breed to produce the next great doe and not to produce the next big buck. The does are the very core of anyone's breeding program. So breed with bucks that can add to the production level of your doe herd. Certain crosses have been shown to create these next great does and certain crosses have not shown this ability. As I mentioned to you already don't spend your money trying to find some cross that others have failed to find. Let someone else spend their money experimenting inside their own programs. You are better off using what has been proven to work for others. That is the wise way of investing your money into building a great production herd.
Joined Oct 2009
3,165 Posts | 1+
upstate ny
RLA Thats what i was trying to imply with my posts but others think they know better of what i am saying than myself.Some should worry more about themselves. I am and alot i know are trying to do the same thing. I think it would take a few years to prove how your ai work is doing as far as passdown. I believe the small guy's such as myself with just a handfull of animal's can pay the bills by buying a few does from a few proven lines and then breed them to the bucks off your choosing that match up the best with your does.There is such a great amount of real good semen out there that can be bought cheap.Most will not sell stockers untill 3yrs old and with the great does that can be had,with the real good semen available it's a win,win for the small farmer or a guy that is happy with the does he has and his intrest is not in auctions but is making stockers.From the phone calls i have been recieving from folks looking for stockers and from some of the guys that fill orders from some of the ranches,Things are looking good this year and some orders can't be filled with the deer that have the look that ranches are looking for!!
Joined Oct 2009
3,165 Posts | 1+
upstate ny
You must be in some of the auctions that i have not been attending. From the books and sales i have been watching the figures look a little different.Are you sure you are not looking at all the real deer farmers checkbook when you say this.You know the coat tails of the one's you ride and try to say you are as succesful as them? You are right it is none of my concern such as what i have to say on these fourms are really not any of your business. If you want to read crap into what i am saying you better get a little better at it as you are doing a pi$$ poor job!
Bruce said:
You know Bruce This is like the comment that got us into the industry. In the beginning we where just hunters raising some deer. As we learned more about the industry i ran in to the Ranch Manager of Glenn Dice Farms at one of our local ice cream shops ( C R Bucks ) after about 10 minutes of talking he looked at me and said " It cost just as much to feed a bad deer as it does a good one" I only had to think about that comment for 2 weeks before i had our first 200" bred doe Purchased. Sometimes its tough advice that can get you to the next level.
Don't pay to much attention the Big Guy, Little guy Crap. We are a small farm by size but BIG a heart! We set goals and meet them. As a small farm we got into 2 Auctions this year. We sold our first deer at auction. We sold our first deer out of state. and we sold all but one animal we wanted to move this year. So no matter your size or your breeding budget. Set goals and work towards them. IF its 200" @2 breed producing bucks to proven doe. A solid doe herd, Large frames, go after the animals that will get you there in the time frame that fits your goals.
For me personally if it takes me 4 years or 14 to get there that is fine. I got time. Good luck and dont loose sight of how much fun deer farming can be.
Matt
Good comment and you know his bucks are not bad since we were going to AI with AW Wrangler this year but were not able to get the semen in time. So we know Rodney has some great backgrounds in his deer like GB PA Geronimo,RDM Goliath womb sister I see it your on your way Rodney but it all comes down to what you want to grow.
Like me I do NOT like the big non typical' s I am working for large 300 + typical
So for me it comes down to what I want to have. I do not worry if it is a big name or not and for one other point this forums has had some unknown names show up this yr that are very impressive
Good comment and you know his bucks are not bad since we were going to AI with AW Wrangler this year but were not able to get the semen in time. So we know Rodney has some great backgrounds in his deer like GB PA Geronimo,RDM Goliath womb sister I see it your on your way Rodney but it all comes down to what you want to grow.
Like me I do NOT like the big non typical' s I am working for large 300 + typical
So for me it comes down to what I want to have. I do not worry if it is a big name or not and for one other point this forums has had some unknown names show up this yr that are very impressive
I have a plan that I am sticking with as to type's of buck's that I am working with and what line's they are from. I did use some real good buck's for this year's a.i. and plan to keep doing that each year. This was just my 2nd year doing my own a.i. and thing's went well this year. Each time I do it I learn way's to make it better and what thing's I can use and do to make the a.i. go as easy as possiable the next time.
Joined Oct 2009
3,165 Posts | 1+
upstate ny
Thats what us small farms need to do. Buy some great does and then breed them ourselves with some real good but not real expensive semen!!Don't get sucked into the hype of having to breed with the higher dollar stuff just to make stockers. The small guy can make great money to pay bills and expand their herd if they just keep the overhead low!!
I try to sit back and bite my tongue but sometimes I just can't ......this is one of those just can't moments........I do not know Mike (from four seasons). I know he will speak his mind on here when he knows he is right....he is not afraid that he might look bad for speaking his mind on something no matter who he is speaking with........this is the way it used to be on the forums......however the personal attacks were never like they are today.......you spoke your piece, disagreed and moved on. I start reading this thread and everyone is giving their own opinions (right or wrong).......no one is personally attacking anyone until Roger decides to post.......yes Roger, you threw the first shot and personally attacked Mike for his opinions. No where in his post did he attack you or direct anything towards you personally......he was giving his opinion! What is sad Roger, is you had poor DC removed from this site for doing the very same thing to you years ago as you did to Mike here.....you may be a little more politically correct in the way you do it but that just wasn't DC's way! Anyhow, I am sick of all the butt kissing that goes on in the forums anymore........everyone is afraid to say how they really feel for fear they may look bad! There is nothing wrong with disagreeing on these forms that is what it's all about....give your opinion and someone else gives theirs.....once it goes personal it goes to far. I am not perfect by any means and have been guilty too.......I have done my best to practice what I am preaching right now.......but enough is enough! We are deer farmers folks....no room for EGOS here.........let someone give their opinion .......you give yours and leave the personal crap out.........the poor guy who started this thread now wishes he probably didn't and that is just ashame!
I wasn.t gonna say anything for fear that the six three bold guy might beat me up. At least thats what he thinks according to his private message he sent me the other day but very well said Dennis. Sure wish I knew how old DC was doin. Does anyone know how he is.
4 seasons, you are attending the wrong auctions. There are many sales that sell deer from ANY farm. These sales are directed to the shooter market rather than the breeder market which I believe is extremely overpriced. Roger, sorry you are having an off year in sales...ha-ha
Joined Apr 2009
2,617 Posts | 0+
Edgar, WI
I never had dc or anyone removed from these forums. Russell owns the site and he decides what happens on his site. As far as who said what or first, ask me if I care. People can read and they know the tone and the position all the regular posters on here take. They know what a comment about the "bright ones" means also. And Virgil, for God's sake learn how to spell. I am 6'3" and bald. Not bold. It is great how people take things out of context..... You all should work for CNN
On a side note congrats on buying that buck. He is a nice looking two year old. I wouldn't mind using him in my program but I just don't like the owners and I can't support their dirty tactics.
On a side note congrats on buying that buck. He is a nice looking two year old. I wouldn't mind using him in my program but I just don't like the owners and I can't support their dirty tactics.