I Need Your Input

ATodd,

As a buyer I understand putting up 25% for what you want months down the road..... But the buyer isn't gambling so the buyer gets 100% refund. For instance you put cash down on a future car you've ordered from a car lot and the dealer can't get the car you ordered do you loose ten percent...... Now really the question between you and the seller, my honest opinion is the seller is the one gambling. Why because he is counting chickens before the hatch so to speak and selling them. So..... I guess you can either put it in your policies that the seller is risking 10% of the sale or you send the 10% back each time the right chicken doesn't hatch. Just my opinion but the buyer isn't gambling unless stated in auction terms and I'm not willing to gamble 10% for choice. When I can just wait a get what I want. But as a seller I'd be willing to offer choice at my risk of not having what's promised and refund the cash. To the buyer and you'll already have your 10%

Yup. Full refund for the buyer! Customer is always right. Problem would arise if the Exchange would not waive their fee. Yes..No..Maybe! I think to save face and keep all parties happy the auction company would refund their part or risk the chance of not having either that seller or buyer use your auction service again! Touchy situation for sure!

Todd give me a call when you phone is working again. Glad 2 C you're still around!

ToddM said:

I need to know your opinion on a situation that can happen at any auction in America. I have had several questions on this lately and one small issue. Please let me know your opinion.



Here is the situation. A consignor in an auction over the winter sells an unborn fawn as “choice buck or doe fawn”. Essentially they are telling potential buyers that they have their choice at birth of the fawns, buck or doe. The seller only asks for 25% down at the end of the sale to cover commissions and 15% more in their pocket as a deposit. The buyer is responsible for the remainder of the payment when the fawns are born and the fawn is chosen.



Here is the catch. What happens when the buyer wants a buck fawn and only doe fawns are born. Or what happens when the buyer wants a doe fawn and only buck fawns are born?



My question to you is, what is the right thing to do as a seller in a situation where the desired sex of fawn is not available (born) in a consignment that is sold as “Choice Buck or Doe Fawn”. Do they refund the entire 25% deposit paid by the buyer? Do they refund the 15% that they received above and beyond the commission? Do they force the buyer to take the opposite sex fawn that was born?



In this situation lets assume there is NOT a suitable substitute from another doe.



Thanks for your input.

Todd

Click to expand...

In my opinion IF there is a refund due the refund is in its entirety. All funds should be refunded 100% to the buyer/winning bidder.

That said, SHOULD there be a refund? That depends on the wording given by the seller during the offering. The bidder may have only wanted a specific sex, however was the wording of the offering choice of any fawns born, or choice of sex? My guess there was no specific wording that made it clear. The typical wording is "choice fawn" or "choice buck or doe" and most think the later means the buyer gets their choice of anything born. Buck or doe. However some may feel they are buying the specific sex they want. I have rarely ever seen it worded that specifically at any sale. But if the seller was selling your choice of a specific sex then it should be stated during the sale, "Buck or doe, make choice day of sale. If your pick is not born then you get a refund or you just pay the commission."

Did the buyer state to the seller soon after the sale ended what their desire was? If so then the seller should know if this is a case of buyers remorse now and the buyer is looking for a way out. If so tough crap a deal is a deal. And yes that tough crap goes both ways. The seller could have sellers remorse also, but tough crap. A deal is a deal.

Is it possible to ask the backup bidder if they want to take over for the buyer? If so refund the original buyer and the back up bidder then gets the choice fawn.

In the end being good sellers AND good buyers is important. A persons self respect and honor should play a part in how the deal is finalized.

This past winter I sold an unborn doe fawn that was not born. I refunded 100% of the money. I did not expect the auction company to take the loss.

Well the way I might interpret this is from a couple angles.

Option 1- selling choice unborn doe fawn from said doe/s. Should there be no doe fawns born out of such, the buyer/seller would have to come to some kind of agreement. If buyer wanted a refund it should be given

Option 2- selling choice buck or doe fawn from said doe/s. Buyer understands the odds of being able to choose obviously warrants higher bidding hence a future breeder may be in store. The buyer wants a buck and no bucks are born, or wants doe's and no doe's are born. To me the buyer should have understood that there is significant risk in buying unborn fawns! This second option is more hairy, thus if it were my animal as the seller I would try and work with the client best I could. If we could not reach an agreement I would refund the money...................but with the understanding that any offerings in the future sold in similar fashion would not be sold to that individual.

This is only fair in my opinion to the seller as he has worked hard to bring to auction, advertise, and promote this consignment. If it should happen often this is of no benefit to the seller.

Four Seasons Whitetails said:

Yup. Full refund for the buyer! Customer is always right. Problem would arise if the Exchange would not waive their fee. Yes..No..Maybe! I think to save face and keep all parties happy the auction company would refund their part or risk the chance of not having either that seller or buyer use your auction service again! Touchy situation for sure!

Click to expand...

No sale, no commission. Same thing if an animal dies after auction close and before animal is transferred. Say semen is sold on uncollected bucks. If the buck doesn't collect, would it be appropriate to make the seller pay commission? It's all about doing the right thing.

If it was worded choice fawns. If the doe only had one or the other, the buyer needs to take what is available. The buyer IS taking a risk also when buying these type of lots. I am sure if it was listed a guaranteed buck or doe fawn, the lot probably would have brought more.

I can see how the agreement can be/is uncleared to the buyer/seller in this type of auction format. I know when you purchase dogs you can buy the "pick of the litter" which may be a better fit for the auction. It's all in the wording, the seller can easily say the auction is for the "pick of offspring fawns" and then the buyer would no the risk of it being a doe or buck fawn. I would think it would be up to the seller to make all guarantee's in the wording of the auction (such as refund if wanted sexed isn't born) but up to the buyer to know what he is bidding on and the risk of not getting the sexed preferred.

ToddM said:

The offering was "Choice buck or doe fawn"

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To answer your actual question if I bought this "Choice buck or doe fawn" I would take it as I am buying a fawn from the advertise doe rather it's a buck or doe, I agree to buy the fawn. I may want a buck but there are no guarantee's that I will get a buck. As long as the seller can deliver a healthy fawn from the advertised doe I do not see any reason for refunds unless the details in the auction specifically said otherwise. My opinion is that as a buyer it is my responsibility to know all the details before I hit the "bid now" button. I hope this helps,



Kevin

Dakota said:

No sale, no commission. Same thing if an animal dies after auction close and before animal is transferred. Say semen is sold on uncollected bucks. If the buck doesn't collect, would it be appropriate to make the seller pay commission? It's all about doing the right thing.

Click to expand...

I would love to see the auction companies refund the commission if the fawn is not born. I have sold several "choice fawns " that have not DNA to the deer being sold. (AI fawn Sold, doe did not take, buyer bought AI fawn not back up)



Some commissions at 10% have cost me thousands of dollars in refunds...

Make sure you know what you are buying before you bid. If the seller is not guaranteeing buck or doe the buyer is required to take the fawn that is born. There are cases where a buck or doe fawn is guaranteed. In that case if no fawn is born a full refund must be made to the buyer. The auction company should not have to refund commission. They did their job and should be paid for it. Buy selling ubron fawns the sller is taking the chance that he may end up refynding the miney and losing the commussion. This is how we have hanled it at our auctions and have not had any issues. Ut is very important to be upfront and make sure both buyer and seller kbow what they are getting into by buying or selling uborn fawns at auction.

Todd it was Choice fawn out of purple 103 Bred to Bone Collector XL

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Offering Choice 2013 Fawn out of Purple 103 ( Dna # 126599 ) She is direct daughter out King Kong and a Maxbo Xtreme & P-509 Doe. ( P- 509 is the Mother to Dakota Exxon 247" @ 1 See picture. All of her sons have been over 250 @ 2 with at least a 24" inside spreads ) Now add the Bone pushing power of Maxbo Xtreme and the early maturing of King Kong 317 @ 1 and you have a "Smoking Hot Doe." Oh by the way she has been Live Bred to BONE COLLECTOR XL. These Fawns are going to be a great addition to any ones Breeding program.







Buyer has the Option to purchase choice Buck or Doe Fawn for the final Bid price. Or pay 2 X times the final bid Price and purchase Purple 103 (She is a 2011 model and these are her first fawns.) Bred to Bone Collector XL







To see Video Of Bone Collector XL go to: ( YouTube and enter Bone Collector XL ) This your is your chance to get your next Breeder buck. I am guaranteeing a least 1 live born fawn of I will give you a straw of Bone Collector XL Sexed Semen.







We are CWD Jan 2003 TB Accredited Bruce Certified







Thank you for Biding. If you have any questions feel free to give me a call.



Steve Dougherty



Zumbro River Whitetails



507-269-7346





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On Feb. 24, 2013 12:12:41, the following description has been added:



If you purchase a fawn 25% down . If it is a doe fawn I will start it on a bottle and you will have to pick her up with in 30 days. If you want a buck fawn we will leave it on the doe and he will have to be picked up by september 15th. The balance will be due when you pick up your fawn.



This is the Listing that was sold on the 2-27-2013. Unfortunately purple 103 had a single doe fawn. We pulled her and are bottle feeding her. I sent the buyer back what I was paid by the auction company. WE HELD UP OUR END AND LOST A SALE !!!!!

I see this as the seller benefiting from selling an unborn animal even though they have no real way to be absolutely sure they can provide said animal.



The buyer should certainly not have to pay if they don't get what they wanted....



The auction company should not loose there commission as they did their job.



The seller has to be responsible for the 10%! If they are making money from offering a certain animal and don't provide that animal they should have to pay back the money. They stand to benefit the most, they should also take the most risk. Its really nice to be able to sell an unborn fawn and generate some money now for future offspring, simply put if a seller is promising choice they should provide choice of refund all money generated from the promise they made.

Yes Chris this is very true. The seller in these situations are the benefiting from the sale the most. Like it was said earlier "you are selling your chickens before they hatch". The auction house is offering services to us (deer farmers) to sell animals, asking for a commission on the sale. If the Lot is sold, they did there job. Why should they be at risk for whatever the seller puts together as a lot? If the auction house was to be responsible for these sort of deals I would assume that they would start restricting different deals and limit our capabilities to sell animals. I personally like the "choice fawn options" that get offered, Ive bought and sold this way. But as a seller you should be responsible for 100% of the deal.



On a different note, I am struggling with what to do, I bought a deer on one of the big sale(Top 30) that was expensive to me at least. Offering was AI to a very good buck(I know they don't always hit) with seller saying he is confident it hit as no action from back up buck. I was even happy with the back up buck breeding and made sure I won the bid.

She didn't fawn at all this summer, when I picked her up late April she didn't look bred, seller said she most likely to to back up and fawn will come late june, NO fawn, looks completely healthy, is a 2 year old and as big as most my mature does.

When asked seller(one of the bigger breeders) if he would work on me with this (as I wouldn't pay $5,000+ for an unbreed doe) he offered me a fawn out of one of his unkown yearlings. I asked for a fawn out of the back up buck.

What have some of you guys done in this situation? Is it unusual to ask for at least the breeding you thought you were buying(back up buck at least)?

Not sure what to do here?

On a different note, I am struggling with what to do, I bought a deer on one of the big sale(Top 30) that was expensive to me at least. Offering was AI to a very good buck(I know they don't always hit) with seller saying he is confident it hit as no action from back up buck. I was even happy with the back up buck breeding and made sure I won the bid.

She didn't fawn at all this summer, when I picked her up late April she didn't look bred, seller said she most likely to to back up and fawn will come late june, NO fawn, looks completely healthy, is a 2 year old and as big as most my mature does.

When asked seller(one of the bigger breeders) if he would work on me with this (as I wouldn't pay $5,000+ for an unbreed doe) he offered me a fawn out of one of his unkown yearlings. I asked for a fawn out of the back up buck.

What have some of you guys done in this situation? Is it unusual to ask for at least the breeding you thought you were buying(back up buck at least)?

Not sure what to do here? (Quote)



You are in no way in the wrong by asking for a fawn out of the backup...At the very least...Any breeder that would not honor that request...Well lets leave it at that!

Could it be he has no fawns out of the backup? I would think they would make it right with you being it was a Top 30 lot..Breeders of that status!

Mike,

I am sure he has fawns as he had 7 deer breed to him on his doe sale list for last year. Plus whatever was backed up by him.

Is it unfair to ask for a buck and doe fawn, sellers pick out of the breeding on the doe side, but with the back up buck being the sire?

I actually had basically the same thing happen on 2 does, one was a yearling (not this one I am speaking of), the doe was advertised as having Quad AI fawns the previous year. So she had already taken AI