Starting a buck stud

Hello everyone,

I wanted to see what kind of thoughts, openions and ideas I could get on this.



Myself and the vet I work with (mainly in the horse breeding business), are thinking about trying to get into the deer business. We don't want to raise deer, what we are looking to do is just have bucks to freeze and ship semen on. The idea is to house the bucks so that farms that don't want to deal with them can breed via AI instead of having to keep the bucks on their property themselves. Of course we would purchase bucks of good pedigree and quality. We collect and freeze semen on sheep, goats and cattle as well as horses so from the semen collection and freezing standpoint I would not think deer would be much different. However I wanted to see what other people who are already in the business thought about the idea. I have been reading about and have been interested in the deer business for some time and am now getting to the point where I can start thinking about it financhially.



What are some considerations I should take before getting myself into this?



Thanks



Dustin [email protected]

So you don't want to raise deer, you just want to have some good pedigreed brood bucks that you will simply collect and sell semen from? First off, I would tell you that I don't believe what you're suggesting has any real chance of being a profitable endeavor. For one, bucks people are willing to pay good money for from semen off of don't just pop up out every buck with a good pedigree. Most people breed for years and years before they grow a buck worthy enough to sell semen off of. So statistically I think it would be rare to buy a good pedigree buck or two and expect it to pay off for you. Plus, you'll be competing against people that have herds of deer and breed every year for bigger deer with deeper pedigrees. By not breeding yourself, your business model wouldn't work in the long run.

I think Droptine is right-it will cost you a fortune to get a panel of bucks to collect from if you have any hopes of selling the semen as your primary income for the stud. And since you won't be breeding, you can only purchase more bucks as replacements, which will cost more, and the hot bucks might always be hot, but there'll always be hotter ones.

I agree with two previous posts. Everyone with a buck is trying to create something better than what they have. It would be hard to compete.

Hi all, and thanks for the replys. That is what I am looking for is to get peoples openions on the idea. There is one thing I should say, though it won't make much difference, is that when I said I do not plan to raise deer, I should have said I do not plan to raise deer for comercial sale, of for hunts. That said, I would not breed many does. Only a few a year. Of course with that there would not be many #'s to try and get better and better with only a few fawns a year, but just to be fair, I would be breeding a few.



The other thing I should make note of is that either way I plan to have deer. However if it is not something that Will likly be profitable then I do not want to get my friends money involved in it. I would hate to have him put money into the adventure thinking there would be profit in it, and be disappointed. I want to have deer either way, it would just be nice if there was some profit there, but is not necessary.



Again, thanks for the openions an I am always open to hear more thoughts.



Dustin

so.... you want to do what everyone else is trying to do, welcome to the club



My name is Curtis and I'm addicted to deer farming

OK, GOLDSTUD



First thing you need to do is find out if deer farming is legal in New Mexico. I have never seen one listed anywhere. If it is, you need to see where your market would be, to buy from and sell to.



You want to do the same thing we are ALL doing. Either you want to be serious about the business or you don't...it is one or the other. You can't do what your wanting to do by being halfway. No one is going to guarantee you that you will make a profit. And the chances of being very profitable are slim with only a few deer. The chances of you having something above and beyond what someone else is already producing is very slim. And if someone already established in the business is doing it, then you are behind them. The thing about the deer business is that you are always planning 3 to 5 years in the future. It takes atleast 3 years to produce a buck. If he is nothing special, then you lost 3 years and need to start over, which means you are waiting atleast another 3 years.



This is a business that takes years to develope your stock. And if it doesn't develope for you then you have just average stock that are not going to be profitable. If it were easy and profitable, more people would be doing it.



I wish you the best.

Here is another question. As I mentioned in an eariler post, even if I do not go into the semen sales business on deer, I do plan on having a few deer. What is everyones thoughts on species? I notice that white tailed seem to be the most popular among deer farms. Why are white tailed more popular than Mule Deer.



Thanks

Dustin

Hi Jack, thanks for the reply,

As to the legality in NM, I have checked into that and it is legal as long as you get the correct permits. I do need to check more into fencing requirements but that is no big deal to find that out.



As to the time it takes, that is understandable. I am used to the horse business where it take 7 to 10 years (especially in the show horse world) to start trying to make a profit off a stallion and again, if he turns out to not be what people are looking for then you have wasted 10 years and upwords of 50 grand (and that is if you bred him instead of buying him from someone else).



As to being serious, I am serious about it. But again, I do not plan to breed large numbers. I would only be breeding a few a year. This is something I plan to do anyway, rather it is profitable or not, I would just rather it be profitable, and don't want to get my friend involved if it does not look like something that would bring a profit as that would be the only reason he would go in on it.



What I will probably end up doing, is getting a few deer myslef, and see what I can produce with the small #'s I plan to have. If it does look like it may turn a profit then he may wnat to still get involved. And there is always the chance I may start breeding and end up getting larger and having deer for sale and hunts. That is what happened with horses. I got into the horse business only planning to have 1 or 2, and now I have a heard of about 10 (plus or minus depending on what I have bought, what I have sold, etc.).



Again though, thank you for you thoughts and comments. I value all openions I get from those that have experence to pass on.



Thanks



Dustin

Probably the biggest factor that I was unaware of in the planning stages was that a herd can go south in a hurry. By this I mean there are things that can creep up on you such as disease or even a stray dog that can reek havick (sp) on your herd with little or no warning. I am not trying to deter you but something to consider. I suggest talking to several farmers and find out good and bads of the business. Many may not be willing to spend hour typing a story on the forum but would be more than willing on the phone or in person. I am only a couple years into it so not best source of experience.

If I were you I would look to get the best does I could. Look for bottle fed. As they are easier to handle. Decide what look your going for and see if you kind find a couple of 2 year old does that have a impressive pedigree and throw the look your going for. The does will contribute more to that final results than the buck will. Then get some semen from bucks that tend to throw your look. Do your homework and you never know. Do you feel lucky? The market for whitetails tends to be better than mule deer therefore more people raise them. You go where the money is. Rick

Disease is of course something I will watch for. Thankfully having my pre vet degree (wish I had the time to try and go for the full vet degee), manageing many horse farms, and working with a vet daily, I am usually pretty good at keeping watch over animals I am in charge of. None the less I will be reading up and asking questions on some of the major diseases before I actually bring any new animals in. Stray dogs are what worries me the most, but I plan to have good fences that dogs would have a hard time getting thru. Even for my horses I try to maintain fences that dogs have a had time getting thru, though unfortunetly I do not know of any fence that a dog CANNOT find a way thru.



Rick you bring up a very good point as to what I want. If I am going to try to having soemthing profitable, I would have to try and go for what the market wants. However what I see as having the higher prices is not what I personally like (at least in terms of antlers). What I see going for the higher prices in online listings are bucks with ther real extravagent antlers. What I personally like are plain Jane forward pointing antlers with a large span and 4 or so points per side. That is the other thing I am going to have to learn, terms when talking about antlers. When my father and I went hunting we were never looking for trophis, so really didn't care about showing off what we killed, as long as it was legal and we got the meat, that was all we cared about.



As to how old, and what *** I want to start out with. That is also something I have been wondering about. Do I want to get some doe fawns and buck fawns, then wait tell they are old enough to breed? Do I want to get just doe fawns and buy semen from what ever bucks I want to breed to one the does are old enough? Do I want to get animals that are already of breeding age, or buy bred does that have been bred to a buck that I like?



What I do know is that whatever I start out with it will have to be something that is used to being handled, like the photos I see of kids on the deer's back. I mess with enough of other people's animals of different species that we have to run into a catch pen or shoot for everything thing we want to do with them. I don't want to have to do that with my animals for every little thing.



The other thing I need to learn is pedigrees. Any suggestions on learning that in the deer world. With horses, cattle, sheep, goats etc, you can pick up books that talk about the different pedigrees, what about deer.



And last thing for this post, what about some of the exotic breeds, such as Axis, red deer etc.? What is everyone openion on them?



Again, thank you to everyone that is taking the time to post.



Dustin

It sounds to me that you like the big wide typicals. You are not alone as it is one of the more sought after looks that alot of the preserves are looking for. I too like the typical look. I would suggest that you go with at least ten pointers as eight pointers are harder to break that 200" mark with. Twelve point is even better. The reason I suggested getting breeder age does is that you can get started off right away with your breeding program. If you get very tame bottle fed girls they will be much easier to take care of if they would get ill. You won't be tranquilizing them for treatments usually. If you start with fawns it will take you 3 years to see what the buck fawns are going to do. Buying bred does are alright if you can find exactly what you want. That's not always the case though. By AIing you put together the combo your looking for. As far as getting educated on the deer world pedigrees I would suggest going through as many auction catalogs as I could get my hands on. Look at the deer that really catch your eye and then check out the parents and grandparents. Eventually you will pick up on certain names that keep coming up over and over. Being in New Mexico it might be tough to visit a variety of farms and see the animals your looking at in the catologs in person but this is a good way to narrow your search down. Some animals just never seem to photograph as big as they really are. On the other hand some deer photographed at just the right angle makes them look bigger than they actually are. If you can't visit in person look at videos of your favorite deer. Check out the buck channel and utube. Get to some of the deer shows if you can and look at some of the mounts and talk with the breeders. You might want to look into a couple of magazines out there especially for deer breeders, Heartbeat and Deer Tracking. There is also a series of books called the Whitetail Guide that are full of pictures and pedigrees. This could get you started. Rick

These here are more what I like in terms of antlers

http://www.dabuckchannel.com/video/167/Deepwoods-Whitetails-Mr-H

http://www.dabuckchannel.com/video/174/Mojave-August-4th-2009



Not so much into bucks like this

http://www.dabuckchannel.com/video/150/Free-Agent--Mark-Sipes-Yearling-July-19

I don't know where you are planning to do this but I'm pretty sure New Mexico does not allow deer farms.



The most bang for your dollar is probably bred does. You will most likely get two fawns per doe so are buying 3 deer. Rather than buy does that you need to breed next fall, this will put you a year ahead of the game. Those bred does will be ready to breed again next fall.



We don't bottle feed anything unless we have to - bottle fed does are nice if you want a really tame deer that will come up to you. When we've had bottle feds they were harder to run through the chute since they wouldn't move away from you. You never want a bottle fed buck - at least my opinion - they get very nasty and are unpredictable during the fall.



We have a hunting preserve and things that are always popular are width and drop tines - of course the more points the better as well.

Hi Wild River Whitetails,



Actually I checked to see if I could have deer here long before looking into getting land. Here we can either have a deer farm or get a pet licence to have deer long as you're not raising them. Just that no one does it here. I think there used to be a few small deer farms in northern NM, but not sure if they still exist. I can't find them listed on the net anymore. Of course the rules and regulations are a mile long, but none the less legal if you get the correct permits.



I have heard about bucks getting nasty during the rut, but at the same time I see pics of people with them during that time of year. As far as getting gored which I have heard of happening, for those bucks that fall in that catagory, what about tranquilizing them and cutting the tips of their antlers off after you get all of your pictures? That is what a lot of people do with non-polled bulls that they have to work with daily. Granted bulls have horns not antlers, but I would think the principle would be the same.



Thanks

Dustin

Well, we do saw our bucks on the fall so they only have an inch or two of antler left. You could ask my brother-in-law who works for us, but he had a buck take him for quite a ride with those sawed antlers and he saw that same buck kill another buck. So sawing is helpful but they are still dangerous. They may not charge you but will walk towards you and just not stop - suddenly you are backing up - maybe into the fence where their goal is to pin you. They can come from behind and knock you off your feet before you know what happened.



The incident with my brother-in-law happened with a buck that wasn't tame - we had just sawed a group of them and had them up by the barn - he was in the pen to close one gate and open another.



When you say NM allows deer farms - so you can raise and sell deer - what about hunting preserves?

you can raise deer, sell deer, butcher them of course, but I am not sure about hunting preserves. I have not checked into that. However I do know if you own land in the mountains that has wild deer and elk on it, the state gives you a set number of tags that you can sell to people to hunt on your land, guided or not guided. A friend of mine has 1,200 acres I think in the Lincon nationl forest and he sells tags every year for like 600 a piece. Or at least Elk he does, I don't know about deer.



As to bucks with sawed antlers, I am not too worried about getting pened as long as they don't have any kind of penatrating points. I end up fighting 1,000/1,300 pound ill mannered and pee-oid TB stallions that bite rear, strike and kick. They may not have antlers but I have seen one pick up a 320 pound guy by the shoulder and toss him over a 6 foot fence. With any animal you have to know what to watch for I don't care what species they are. Same thing with bulls and even goats can hurt when they head butt you. I think semostic sheep are about the only species I have not seen turn on a person. LOL

Wild River,

Here is the page that give all the rules and regulations for New Mexico



http://www.nmcpr.state.nm.us/nmac/parts/title19/19.035.0007.htm

Thanks - we've been to New Mexico many times - even to your city of Las Cruces - and really liked it there. We especially like the Santa Fe area - so nice to know you can raise deer there as well.