The sucker tine is setting industry records?

Bell · Apr 26, 2014

Why does Boone and Crocket define a tine as a sucker tine and SCI calls the same tine a T-tine. What is the tine sucking. Is it sucking blood flow from G- tine on either side of it? If you are unfamiliar with the BC or SCI scoring system, imagine the world record Boone Crocket typical buck shot by Milo Hanson. He was a big clean typical with huge smooth candle stick typical G-tine. Now imagine the same typical frame but between the brow(G-1) & the candle stick(G-2) there is another point about the size of your little finger coming off the top of the main beam directly in line with the G-1 and G-2. This would be a BC sucker tine but SCI would call it T-2. Then continue on out the main beam between both your huge 14" candle stick G-2 & G-3 there is another tine about the size of your little finger also directly on line with the G- tines with its own blood vein feeding it directly from the main beam. This tine would also be a sucker tine in the BC scoring system but is an additional typical T-4 in the SCI scoring system and would make this buck your winner in an industry typical competition. The clean BC buck would be the loser and if shot in a preserve would be entered behind the sucker buck in the SCI typical record book. There has never been and 8 by 8 or greater entered in the BC or Pope & Young record because they don't allow suckers. I don't care for them either and I feel like it is almost a fraud when I see a great clean typical get beat out by a buck given typical credit by sucker tines.

Antlershed · Apr 26, 2014

Bell. I see your point. Many bucks are beautiful in this industry that would score less in B&C than in SCI. That is fine with me, but one thing we must realize, clear as day in their ethic section of their website, B&C clearly condemns our industry and has the all so common uneducated lies about us being the reason that the wild deer population in this county will ALL Perish because we are so "ignorant and greedy" that we just have to pen this animals up for our own selfish gain, while we allow them to spread their diseases all over the country. Isn't that why we all do this? For money? The love of the animal couldn't possibly have anything to do with it, lol. Little do they know most of us will work extra hours at our jobs just to supply the animals we love so much with their daily needs,while making little to no profit, just because we couldn't imagine our lives without our deer. They also state that they completely and totally support state laws that ban the raising or importation of game animals behind fence. I have nothing against the bucks in B&C books, I love a big buck wether the good Lord grows them in our pens or in the wild. I do have a problem with the inconsiderate, uneducated people that hate an industry that affects their personal lives in NO WAY WHATSOEVER. If we exists or not, there will always be disease in wild deer, or any animal for that matter, for the rest of time. Sounds to me they need to suck it up and relize it's a part of nature, a part of life in general.

Bell, I am not in anyway meaning to upset you or get your post too off topic, if just want those who don't already know, that B&C really does not like us and wants us gone and has no good reason to do so. High fence deer are not allowed in their books, I completely respect that. No problems. The problem is the condemning of an industry that is doing nothing wrong, despite their claim we don't affect wild deer in any manner. We all personally can like their system, or not, maybe some of us even use it, but Remember to keep in mind they truly do hate your industry.

Bell · Apr 27, 2014

I too, am not a fan of the Boone & Crocket club. It was the only example I was smart enough to use that would convey my point about the traditional typical buck. When I was a little kid at the hunting camp and some one shot a buck with a sucker tine, it was said by my uncles or whomever to be a non typical point. I didn't even know about Boone&Crocket or any scoring system. I support SCI and I am very thankful they support us. They are trying to give a buck credit for everything he grows on his head. I believe a huge typical is distinguished though by what extra he has not grown on his head including the sucker. I appreciate your thoughts and consideration. I am glad to hear someone sees the point.

Antlershed · Apr 27, 2014

I am glad you respected my post. When I read it back to myself after submitting it, I was worried I kind of came off as arrogant and disrespectful toward your topic. I am glad you took it the right way. I was not in anyway disrespecting you for using B&C as an example, I just wanted to clarify to others who weren't already aware that the B&C club does not like us. Thanks bell.

Bell · Apr 27, 2014

I am glad to have posted a topic that gave you a chance to segway into blasting Boone & Crocket's stance toward us. What you said about their positions is definitely more important for everyone to know. "Iron sharpens iron so a man the continence of his friend ".

jerrilee cave · Apr 28, 2014

I don't believe you will ever get the biggest typical buck by breeding with those that produce the "Sucker" tines or to a non-typical. I think sucker tines lead to off line tines. I think if you get a typical out of non-typical stock you are way more likely to produce non-typical than what was on that bucks head. I really don't get hung up in 6x,7x,8x. I am going to breed to big frames, preferably close to 30" beams with strong brows and those with a pedigree that I think will pass those traits down. And above all I want symmetry of the beams and decent tine length. I want to see what the 2nd and 3rd generations look like, they all have to be strong and have those same attributes for me. I don't want a throw back to something that is not appealing to me. There is nothing more beautiful than a huge typical.

Bell · May 17, 2014

Is anyone working on building more tine length specifically with your breeding program. If so, what is your breeding strategy. I am wanting to improve from where my herds genetic limit is now.

Josh · May 17, 2014

Bell920481400349889

Is anyone working on building more tine length specifically with your breeding program. If so, what is your breeding strategy. I am wanting to improve from where my herds genetic limit is now.

We have been playing around with a few lines in this department for a couple years. I believe it is the hardest trait to carry,one generation to the next. Also breeding for one trait specifically can make a mess of some others.

We have been able to grow a yearling with a 13 inch G2 and several with 11-12 inch two's, and a three year old with 16 inch tines. Just starting to get them bred back into their family groups now. Best of luck

Bell · May 17, 2014

Josh,

A 13" T-tine on a yearling is serious. I may have had some close to twelve but not 13" that is impressive. Was it a result of putting one long tined sire on top of a doe line built with long tined sires or some other method of breeding? We do pay attention to rest of the details with discipline.

Whitetail Sanctuary · May 17, 2014

Bell920481400349889

Is anyone working on building more tine length specifically with your breeding program. If so, what is your breeding strategy. I am wanting to improve from where my herds genetic limit is now.

I'm working with my first group of Maxin Eagle does to see if I can get Eagles G-2 tine length it was a 18 5/8" and his older brother had I believe 16"+ and his younger brother had 21"+. Have bred that group of daughters to Rawhide who only has 14+" G-2's but has 15"+ G-3's to see it that cross will get us the desired "Look" of G-2s longer than G-3's and so on. I would know how it was working this year but EHD claimed 15 or my 18 buck fawns so I bred all again and have 19 yearlings that hopefully will help me determine if I'm getting what I'm after ? :huh:

Both bucks also had 29"+ main beams and Eagle 5x6 and Rawhide a 6x7 frame so only time will help me see if it's working? But I also have a couple other groups going also

Bell · May 17, 2014

Wayne,

I've been through the EHD thing a few rounds myself. It screwed me up on understanding my doe herd big time. I too,have worked on the G-tine staggering down from the 2. What I've noticed is that 5 by 5's or greater generally are the ones that get their 2's shorter than the 3's. This is especially true when the 2 starts to grow off the main beam before the main begins to curve. The shorter G-tines close to the G-1 are very common in straighter beamed wide genetics where the beam starts its curve much farther out. Many times the straight beamed wide genetics have surprisingly short main beams. If one just wants wide deer and doesn't care about making a mess of everything else simply find bucks with the straightest main beams and the least halo curve and stack em' & you'll have wide ones soon. To get longer and longer tines I believe that I am going to have to outcross continually. I am not certain if line breeding a doe line a couple generations first is the best option or not.

jerrilee cave · May 18, 2014

Jonathon,

You have one of the best consistent tine producing bucks in your tank and does out of him, Allstar. The only problem I see is that most don't mature to a sellable score until they are 3. So I would try to cross those does to early maturing tine length. Hopefully one of you Banjo's will be the ticket for that.

I do not want to focus mainly on tine length. I want to focus on the whole picture. Of course you have to have it to get score out of typicals or have some extras to get you to our goal of sellable 2 year olds. I want to focus on a good look, beam lenth, and a typical frame. One thing I do not want is cookie cutter deer. Will that happen if you focus primarily on one trait????? I have seen this in one persons herd already and they are losing beam length and tine length by breeding for width and basically all their deer are starting to look the same. Variety is the spice of life and we must remember that not all hunters want the same thing. Sure, great tine length is a grand slam in breeding. I posted a research article that I think people can take a lot out of. Sorry it is very long but gives you an Idea that you can accomplish a lot with in 5 years in your herd by culling out does that don't fit your program. Of course you will get there faster if you have more does than if you just have a handful.

http://www.tpwd.state.tx.us/publications/pwdpubs/media/pwd_rp_w7000_0827.pdf

jerrilee cave · May 18, 2014

Also, where does bodyweight fit in the whole scenario? That article correlates antler size with bodyweight . The advantage to that study is they have a larger numbers than most other research studies . I will post another research study that focuses on percent of Protien fed. The results are interesting to say the least but the numbers of animals in the study are very low

Bell · May 18, 2014

Jerri Lee,

I do agree with you. Can't wait to read the article after lunch. It seems though our industry has got the width thing mastered. I think now we should consider going up vertical. Dr James C. Kroll once described the premium whitetail frame as one that should fill the square frame if pictured inside. I imagine how awesome these 30" to 40" inch wide bucks that have rectangular frames would be with more tine length filling out the premium square frame. Just look at the Dude buck he is 26" inside but you don't notice it because of his 19"+ T-tines. Your jaw just drops.

Bell · May 18, 2014

The Kerr study link is very cool. I've read it a couple times before. I am disappointed they didn't study tine LENGTH. It is also amusing they cite the BC scoring system for their deer grown behind the fence. Their feed mix is simple and interesting with the Aureomycin listed as a constant ingredient. The first time I read this study several years ago I made an advertisement for our farm that stated" Until The Antler Gene Is Mapped" indicating we had found the best way we new to go about breeding on our farm. The statement was meant to be humorous. I like to think that I am incorporating some science in my breeding discipline. The buck and doe influence inside the reproductive cell is 50/50. But the stuff attached on the outside comes 100% from the doe. What does this mean? Does the doe have most of the influence on the body size of our bucks and mass of the antlers because this stuff is what the bucks internal organs are developed from? Consider people you know. If the Dad is taller than the mom the son will some times be as tall or taller than the father but when the mom is taller than the father or even nearly as tall as the dad the son is 100% of the time taller than the dad?

jerrilee cave · May 18, 2014

https://tpwd.texas.gov/publications/pwdpubs/media/pwd_bk_w7000_0155.pdf

Bell · May 18, 2014

That is pretty much the same info included in the first Kerr study posted. Once again tine length was left out. Has there been any statistical data kept on antler development where additional environmental stresses were put on the bucks besides nutrition? The whitetail is very adaptable but I am certain there are many things that can create an element stress besides nutritional stress that would hinder antler growth and not maximize genetic potential. No matter what sire we breed with, we will get variations along the way while breeding for the premium look we desire. This allows a few deer for everyone's taste.

jerrilee cave · May 18, 2014

what I thought was interesting was that the antler size was comparable with the LHLH and the HHHH at maturity, even though the body size was smaller.

Bell · May 18, 2014

Jerri Lee,

I skim read this out in the deer pen today. Now that I'm in the house in my fat recliner I see there is a lot more info in this study I had know idea about. Thanks for posting the link.

Bell · May 18, 2014

Wow,

That's a lot of data. The listed times of death of each breeder buck I found interesting. Only one in July really was in EHD season. They all seemed to die young at 6 years or less. Were they dying from natural causes this young? I too, found it interesting how they recovered in one growing season after being stunted early in life by low protein but then grew comparable antlers to those that weren't when returned to higher protein.The LHLH 4 year olds vs HHHH 4 year olds that were fed high protein from birth. I guess one could save a little on their feed bill possibly by using data in this study and playing with the protein in their feed. I also found it interesting the HLHL 2.5 year olds had wider spreads than the HHHH 2.5 year olds. It is puzzling that spreads increased when the protein level was dropped? I wonder if there is any correlation in this data that explains the wide spindly bucks we see so often in Texas and the volume of more massive but narrower bucks up north? Could this be the result of the free range diets in the north on all the high protein crops and down there once the summer heat comes and things dry out quickly the fiber and mineral content shoots up. I wonder what there would be to eat over 8% protein once it gets dry?

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