The sucker tine is setting industry records?

Jerri Lee

I am dumbfounded at the lack of response to the studies you posted about breeding specifically. I have wondered why very few of the recognized top deer farms in this industry rarely post on this forum. It is probably because of their wisdom that they are evaluating the questions and conversations we have posed about breeding. They will probably respond soon. In my life it seems those who ACT like they know are the ones that do the least. My hope is that they are just very busy helping those out who have purchased from them and don't have time to be helpful on Deerforums

Bell, I hope your not holding your breath while you wait for a response? :lol:   

Bell929871402109936



Jerri Lee

I am dumbfounded at the lack of response to the studies you posted about breeding specifically. I have wondered why very few of the recognized top deer farms in this industry rarely post on this forum. It is probably because of their wisdom that they are evaluating the questions and conversations we have posed about breeding. They will probably respond soon. In my life it seems those who ACT like they know are the ones that do the least. My hope is that they are just very busy helping those out who have purchased from them and don't have time to be helpful on Deerforums




LOL  Yeah Right. They got to the top by playing the business game the way the business game in life is played.

Under the BC launches thread several had strong opinions about the BC scoring system so I thought it would be better to post under General Discussion if I were to have a difference of opinion. I would like to know why the BC scoring system is so disliked. I suspect one reason is that using the BC system makes it harder for preserves to charge for lopsided inches. I am sure farms spending big money on lopsided breedings probably would have some dislike for it as well. I think the SCI system has overly rewarded asymmetry. I believe this has facilitated and nurtured the breeding of out of balanced genetics to the point it has been detrimental to our industry. In my opinion, we would have healthier better looking herds if we used the BC scoring system. Although Boone and Crocket has become the club for out of balance left leaning pin headed equalitarian idiots and hopefully soon no one will be supporting them and they can just measure each other's pointed heads,I do prefer their scoring system.

Bell930791402375588



Under the BC launches thread several had strong opinions about the BC scoring system so I thought it would be better to post under General Discussion if I were to have a difference of opinion. I would like to know why the BC scoring system is so disliked. I suspect one reason is that using the BC system makes it harder for preserves to charge for lopsided inches. I am sure farms spending big money on lopsided breedings probably would have some dislike for it as well. I think the SCI system has overly rewarded asymmetry. I believe this has facilitated and nurtured the breeding of out of balanced genetics to the point it has been detrimental to our industry. In my opinion, we would have healthier better looking herds if we used the BC scoring system. Although Boone and Crocket has become the club for out of balance left leaning pin headed equalitarian idiots and hopefully soon no one will be supporting them and they can just measure each other's pointed heads,I do prefer their scoring system.




Yes im sure all hunters in time would be happy with 4pt,6pt,8pt,10pt,ect,ect, The spice of life is with difference. If we all had the same looks then we all would not be here. You push for a clean look and talk down a non typical look. I mean really how many bucks do you see that are just a messy eye sore? I agree that it happens and there are some already this year but for the most part the cant hold their head up deer does not show up over and over. You like deer like Shock an Awe and other like deer with some extras on them. Bottom line is the hunter is paying for his choice and if the buck grew the inch then he should be scored for what he grew.


 


In my humble opinion of course!!!!!

I do indeed like more symmetrical looking typical and non-typical bucks. I also understand why we all should disdain BC as an organization. My favorite way to score my typical and non-typical bucks is to give their gross BC scores. I would like hear why people have so much dislike for their scoring system specifically. There is an old saying that says " if anyone competes in a sport, he is not crowned unless he competes according to the rules". I think the rules were watered down by the SCI system especially for typical deer by allowing the sucker tine to be scored as a typical tine. To me its akin to a couple kids soccer teams competing and the loser getting the same size trophy as the winner and both winner and losers getting ice cream after the game. This liberal way of scoring and thinking equally makes me nauseated. I am about as humble about this as a bottle fed buck Nov 15 in a pen of doe with their CDR's just pulled out. I appreciate your strong opinions and find them engaging and thought provoking.

Bell, Isn't the gross B&C score just about exactly the same as the SCI score?? I really doubt anybody breeds for lop sided bucks because they have a ton of inches. I think that is the one thing most people agree on is a well balanced rack. Can you name any bucks that have been popular that have been promoted for semen sales that have been lop sided??

Gross BC scoring does not include sucker tines in the gross typical score either. I am not going to call out the names of famous bucks or someone else's breeders. There is a pattern of lopsided horns by age three on the same side consistently in one of the most famous nontypical bucks of all time. You can track it all the way back to one side of the foundation herd. I have genetics where this line is buried deep in the pedigree and I still get more total bone nearly always on that side.

If a buck grows it it should be counted SCI does just that.

Its up to each individual to do the eye test to decide if its for them or not but gross score should count everything.

I have always thought a beautiful clean majestic typical buck was distinguished and defined by what non- typical & sucker point he hasn't grown and from that he is crowned as winner?

The liberal way to score a deer is..If he grew it,you score it. Why would someone as a producer want anything less than what a buck scores? By all means. If a person wants to grow clean 180 inch 3 year olds and can pay the bills with that then have at it.  The hunters where my bucks go look for a little more than the same ol clean looking rack every year. 

Bell931261402464829



I have always thought a beautiful clean majestic typical buck was defined by what non- typical point he hasn't grown and from that he is crowned as winner?




That may be true in some eyes. Its also the farthest from wanted in many others. Choice is the spice of life they say!!!

My favorite buck growing in my pen this year has matching flyers started. If he just had one he probably wouldn't be my favorite. The non typical Strikeforce yearling is one of my favorite yearlings ever. I like some huge balanced nontypicals about as much as typicals.

I do however think it dishonors the rarity of giant typical bucks to add t-tines to them with suckers because they grew them. They should be nontypical inches in my opinion and give the buck that credit. A typical line that gets its typical score from sucker tines will never be used in the typical part of our herd. I do think a non typical buck should be credited with all the inches it has grown including the sucker tine.

I agree their are many types of antler to be liked by all kinds of different people. Some of those people may be harder to find.

Sdbigbucks

It is evident you understand both scoring methods. I appreciate that. Your challenge about naming a specific buck that is .... is an interesting idea. Certainly I could go through most of the older famous lines and describe my thoughts on their strengths and weaknesses. I would love to see an evaluation from a few people I know that have been very analytical of this industries genetics based on antlers and not on sale prices. I would love to hear them go through the top 50 sires and maybe the top ten lines of all time and give an unbiased breakdown of the the strengths and weaknesses of each sire and genetic line. I have over the years analyzed and formed my own opinions. I would love to know how many see things but I probably will never know because it is taboo to publicly be critically honest about another's prized buck or genetic line. I think worrying about the feelings of a fellow breeder may sometimes stand in the way of learning.

I dont put all my egg's in the ..Line Basket.. Myself!  I have been breeding the deer that i like the look of regardless of a Line the last few years and have to say many crosses build many good looking bucks. I never will breed for paper because i breed to supply the market. Dont really care about how clean they are. I think breeding to clean in time will break the bank unless i guess you can build 220-240 clean bucks. Hard to pay the bills with clean when the market pays by the inch. You may make a few xtra bucks $$$ for a few of them but in the long haul a 180 pays a 180 price. A 200 pays a 200 price but a 250-280 pays the bills!


 In my humble opinion of course!

SCI supports our industry and B&C does not. That is reason enough to use SCI scoring.

Wild Rivers

You are right. In hindsight after reading responses. I am sorry that I brought this up. It is to confusing. Most who read this have no idea what a sucker tine is or how it affects the tine length. It was poor judgement and rationale on my part.

Most call any point thats.not typical, non-typical and scored accordingly. Why a buck in any relm would not be givin credit for every inch of bone on his head is beyond me. I think maybe just some good ole boys years ago just wanted to start a club or two!!

Bell, don't feel bad in anyway about starting up this thread. I think it's generated good talk. Keeps things interesting around here. I admit, I was a little confused by the original post, but I see what your getting at now. My fault for not reading thoroughly the first time. I think if anything there would be more confusion about the scoring systems than the actual sucker tine. If all deer were scored off the same system, wild or captive, then it would be less confusing. However There are two systems using different scoring methods and that will generate confusion at times, one system disallows captive, while one system permits it. Then you add pope and young and all their guidelines on archery, if you shoot a buck while using a bow with too much let off then it dosen't qualify regardless of antler score. Most of us as deer farmers are used to just scoring, or watching our buyers score our bucks for what they have on their heads, this would be the SCI system. I admit, I am not very familiar with the B&C system as I don't use it. I went back and re read your original post and researched the system some-more so now I am a lot more familiar with B&C. After reading your original post again, I can really see what you meant now. I can see it being a little unfair to compare a true, clean, balanced beautiful typical, be out done in a competition by another similar buck, but with a few extras, just because of the sci scoring system, however I think the cut off for typical is 10% of the score or less in extras is considered typical. So he would be fair game to win when sci scored in competition