This is what I like to hear....something to get excited about.......yes it is going to be hard to get a big clean typical to hit that 230 to 250 inch mark....but heck 5 years ago we wouldn't have believed we would have had the non typicals that we have today......I think once we see (and i believe we already have seen it) the focus in the industry move towards typicals we will all be surprised what animals we can produce......I know one thing it sure is going to be a whole lot of fun trying to make that BIG BEAUTIFUL TYPICAL!
Where do you see our Indusrty heading!?
- Thread starter ddwhitetails
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Joined Apr 2009
1,130 Posts | 0+
Columbia, MO
I don't believe any of those bucks will make it. If we get close on any, lets get a scoresheet and really find out if the buck makes it. I can't think of more than 1 or 2 and none over 205. I think the Texas breeders are probably ahead of us with this type of deer.
Its funny, people complain that typical genetics don't pay as well at the auctions but I've watched Robert Williams lots bring top money time and time again. And he loves the big clean typicals. But remember that his lines go back several generations with typical breeding. People pay better because they believe they will get typical consistant deer.
I really think whovever produces a big typical line will be rewarded IF they properly market that line.
With all that said, the one thing I HAVE to have in my deer is mass. Its personal but I just love mass! And my hunters love it. So I talk about a big frame but I also want some mass with it. Its the main reason I've stayed away from some deer. If you gave me the choice of the Hansen buck or the Jordon buck, I'd take the Jordon buck. It just has more mass! With me bone is cool! With others, it doesn't matter. To each his own on that one!
My perfect deer has at least 45 inches of mass, 30 plus beams, and a spread over 24 inside. Thats a score of about 129. Now take a 5X5 frame with 8 inch brows, 14 inch 2s and 3s and 10 inch 4s. What do you get?
A buck that scores 221 gross typical. Allow him to vary about 10 inches total from side to side (which is very little) and you have a buck close to 210 net.
I can sell that buck ALL DAY LONG! Now if he is an 8 point frame and scores 20 inches below that (take away the g4s) I can sell him all DAY and ALL NIGHT LONG!
Here is Lethal Weapons sire, Big Guy. Clean, big and around 200 gross. But probably 180-190 Net. My hunters love deer like him!
Its funny, people complain that typical genetics don't pay as well at the auctions but I've watched Robert Williams lots bring top money time and time again. And he loves the big clean typicals. But remember that his lines go back several generations with typical breeding. People pay better because they believe they will get typical consistant deer.
I really think whovever produces a big typical line will be rewarded IF they properly market that line.
With all that said, the one thing I HAVE to have in my deer is mass. Its personal but I just love mass! And my hunters love it. So I talk about a big frame but I also want some mass with it. Its the main reason I've stayed away from some deer. If you gave me the choice of the Hansen buck or the Jordon buck, I'd take the Jordon buck. It just has more mass! With me bone is cool! With others, it doesn't matter. To each his own on that one!
My perfect deer has at least 45 inches of mass, 30 plus beams, and a spread over 24 inside. Thats a score of about 129. Now take a 5X5 frame with 8 inch brows, 14 inch 2s and 3s and 10 inch 4s. What do you get?
A buck that scores 221 gross typical. Allow him to vary about 10 inches total from side to side (which is very little) and you have a buck close to 210 net.
I can sell that buck ALL DAY LONG! Now if he is an 8 point frame and scores 20 inches below that (take away the g4s) I can sell him all DAY and ALL NIGHT LONG!
Here is Lethal Weapons sire, Big Guy. Clean, big and around 200 gross. But probably 180-190 Net. My hunters love deer like him!
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Joined Apr 2009
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Edgar, WI
I look for feeders to be marketed to accomodate the big bucks with countless mass and inches. Something with chutes of about four inches wide to accomodate for massive sprouting drops. When I look at a buck picture I think of how he would survive in the wild.
Can he drink from a shallow creek or does he need to wade out? Can he back the rack when it comes to fending off competition?
One amish fella was telling me his buck would stay near fence edge and rest his antlers in fence just to catch his breathe from lugging massive rack. At first, hearing this was impressive but the more I think of it the less sense it makes for ME to chase that kind of program. Much of my excitement is to look out the window and see something seemingly rare and spectacular acting naturally. I don't think there is anything natural about seeing buck walk around on front two feet!
Of course if I had a monster that big I would watch him so much it would start to look natural to me.
Can he drink from a shallow creek or does he need to wade out? Can he back the rack when it comes to fending off competition? One amish fella was telling me his buck would stay near fence edge and rest his antlers in fence just to catch his breathe from lugging massive rack.
At first, hearing this was impressive but the more I think of it the less sense it makes for ME to chase that kind of program. Much of my excitement is to look out the window and see something seemingly rare and spectacular acting naturally. I don't think there is anything natural about seeing buck walk around on front two feet!Of course if I had a monster that big I would watch him so much it would start to look natural to me.
Sam - I found an extremely clean 6x6, 25" inside, 210" gross buck. (Northern not Texas) Maybe the best things about him was that he was still extremely clean at 6 yrs old and has a 2yr old son that is right at 200" and also pretty darn clean. Only a few people know about him and besides myself I am pretty sure that only 2 other breeders have semen from him. He died last year and the owner isnt letting go of any semen. I will have some fawns from him this spring and only have 2 more straws to work with.
I am not sure that 250" is possible for a clean typical; my goal is a 6x6 or 7x7 that is clean and over 220". That seems like a reachable goal with some luck. I would say that a few guys are breeding for that big typical now based on the semen sales I have seen. I think there will be a big pay day for the first guy to come up with a huge framed clean typical 6x6 or better as such an animal does not now exist. I am not sure that "net B&C" will be the measure that is used to judge the great typicals as B&C may be too tough on the symetry issue. As long as there arent major side to side differences I think breeders will be interested and gross B&C or SCI will be fine as the measuring stick.
I am not sure that 250" is possible for a clean typical; my goal is a 6x6 or 7x7 that is clean and over 220". That seems like a reachable goal with some luck. I would say that a few guys are breeding for that big typical now based on the semen sales I have seen. I think there will be a big pay day for the first guy to come up with a huge framed clean typical 6x6 or better as such an animal does not now exist. I am not sure that "net B&C" will be the measure that is used to judge the great typicals as B&C may be too tough on the symetry issue. As long as there arent major side to side differences I think breeders will be interested and gross B&C or SCI will be fine as the measuring stick.
Joined Apr 2009
1,130 Posts | 0+
Columbia, MO
Thanks Don,
I knew you had been looking. I agree with you on the scoring. I was just wanting to point out how hard it was to get a NET B&C typical over 200. I would never use or promote that scoring system. I don't really like it but I've heard a lot of talk about the clean typical. I've also seen typicals that were clean but not very even from side to side. A clean 8X6 typical for example is really just a 6X6 with 2 extra "typical points" on one side. I see and have had many deer that were much stronger typicals on one side than the other. I don't care for that and in those cases "Net" typical really indicates what the deer represents given his weaker side.
But I agree with you on a typical 6X6. The little differences from side to side don't really matter unless you can really notice it. A better system to net them out might be to take the total inches from each side and use that difference as a deduction.
I am not really trying to breed for this type of deer. However due to my years of typical breeding in the past I have some really pretty clean typicals in my preserve. One 6X6 this year caught my eye and made it through the season. Many of these deer go back to some real typical breeders I had in the past (Heart Attack, etc).
I do wish you and everyone trying good luck!.....and keep in mind that when you get what you want to sell I will be interested in BUYING some!
Keep in touch - Sam
I knew you had been looking. I agree with you on the scoring. I was just wanting to point out how hard it was to get a NET B&C typical over 200. I would never use or promote that scoring system. I don't really like it but I've heard a lot of talk about the clean typical. I've also seen typicals that were clean but not very even from side to side. A clean 8X6 typical for example is really just a 6X6 with 2 extra "typical points" on one side. I see and have had many deer that were much stronger typicals on one side than the other. I don't care for that and in those cases "Net" typical really indicates what the deer represents given his weaker side.
But I agree with you on a typical 6X6. The little differences from side to side don't really matter unless you can really notice it. A better system to net them out might be to take the total inches from each side and use that difference as a deduction.
I am not really trying to breed for this type of deer. However due to my years of typical breeding in the past I have some really pretty clean typicals in my preserve. One 6X6 this year caught my eye and made it through the season. Many of these deer go back to some real typical breeders I had in the past (Heart Attack, etc).
I do wish you and everyone trying good luck!.....and keep in mind that when you get what you want to sell I will be interested in BUYING some!
Keep in touch - Sam
Sam,
I know it is going to be tough to get a perfectly clean typical. More than likely I am going to end up with a nice buck that has an extra sticker or two and maybe a forked tine. My thinking is that the cleaner the buck is, the more likely guys would want to use him on some of these wild non-typicals as the shooter markets starts correcting itself and starts paying for "the look" along with or instead of "total score". I am thinking that a huge framed clean typical bred to extreme non-typical does might help a breeder produce bucks with "the look" while also appealing to those breeders who are also striving for the typical. Time will tell what actually happens with the market but it looks to me like things have already started shifting towards cleaner, bigger framed bucks and away from score. A good example is Pretty Boy Floyd who doesnt come close to 300" but yet is much more popular than many bucks over 300".
I know it is going to be tough to get a perfectly clean typical. More than likely I am going to end up with a nice buck that has an extra sticker or two and maybe a forked tine. My thinking is that the cleaner the buck is, the more likely guys would want to use him on some of these wild non-typicals as the shooter markets starts correcting itself and starts paying for "the look" along with or instead of "total score". I am thinking that a huge framed clean typical bred to extreme non-typical does might help a breeder produce bucks with "the look" while also appealing to those breeders who are also striving for the typical. Time will tell what actually happens with the market but it looks to me like things have already started shifting towards cleaner, bigger framed bucks and away from score. A good example is Pretty Boy Floyd who doesnt come close to 300" but yet is much more popular than many bucks over 300".
Don, I thought you would set your goals a little higher than that!! 220?? Thats it??I hope you dont come see my yearlings this year because youll have a long ride home hanging your head wondering why you cant be as successful as the radicals. Im just messing with ya but I do think that you and I may be at the top of the list if not the most serious deer breeders going after typicals. Not just TYPCIAL but CLEAN 6x6 or 7x7. Theres alot of people talking about it but I dont know if enough people are trusting that the change is going to happen from nons to typs. Like you said above, The huge framed typical can possibly help the crazy antlers gain back a somewhat symetrical look. Going with a huge framed typical can help out the typical breeders non typs and shooter market. Seems like its the best route to take for the future deer industry.
TRO- While there is probably nobody in the deer industry as "radical" as you clowns ... I would bet that there are more serious typical breeders than you imagine. Dont be a bit surprised if someone doesnt beat us both in the race for that monster clean typical.
Oh, if you think 220" is a little small, show me a clean and even 220"+ typical that is out there right now.
Oh, if you think 220" is a little small, show me a clean and even 220"+ typical that is out there right now.
By the way TRO, did you notice that big forked G-2 tine on your Rancher photo? That is going to be a very tough trait to breed away. I plan on using Rancher as well but will be very careful about using him on another line where forked G-2s are common
T.R.O
Trust me you are not the only ones working on this. I sold nearly everything out 2 years ago to get started on this. We bred with Jed, Tacoma, Pretty Boy Floyd, John David and more when straws were first made available. I , along with several Amish farms, have been working on this for a while. Main goal is 200" clean typical at 3. If it was not sold, or there is no interest as a breeder this would still be a top price shooter. There is always a market for clean bucks, regardless of market flooding with non typicals. We may have a few tricks up our sleeves!
Trust me you are not the only ones working on this. I sold nearly everything out 2 years ago to get started on this. We bred with Jed, Tacoma, Pretty Boy Floyd, John David and more when straws were first made available. I , along with several Amish farms, have been working on this for a while. Main goal is 200" clean typical at 3. If it was not sold, or there is no interest as a breeder this would still be a top price shooter. There is always a market for clean bucks, regardless of market flooding with non typicals. We may have a few tricks up our sleeves!
Here is the first failed attempt 2 year old. He went 5X5 the following year but didn't quite get it done. Sold as a shooter at 3. This is the quality of deer we were looking for just missing mass and minimum 6X6 we were missing.
Don, I forgot the name of the buck that meets the 220 clean mark but il get back to you on that. I did notice that with rancher and kind or scares me because the only son my typical had was 170@ 1 but has a split g2. That bucks yearling has a split g2 as well so hopefully rancher doesnt pass that trait down. Im just going to have to use some of your secret weapon to the the cleanliness!! Do you believe the splits on rancher will stay deep like that or possibly seperate out as 2 different points off the main beam? Ultimate goal is to have that monster clean buck but every 180-200 incher that doesnt quite make it there will still be good shooter money to go towards perrfecting the cleanliness. It will be hard and there are hardly any clean ones out there. I would say you have the best upperhand possible with still clean at 6 yrs. I dont know what my buck would have turned out to be since he died 192 @ 2 perfect 6x6. With his son having a split im guessing he would have split off at 3 or 4 as well. Time will tell.
The biggest problem with creating a clean typical is going to be in keeping the G-2s clean. They have a tendency to either fork or have stickers coming off them. The brows can also be tough tines to keep clean. Another issue is mass as Sam already mentioned. I think a clean typical with pencil thin tines is going to turn away a lot of people. Who wants to raise a pen full of clean typical shooters only to have them breaking tines because they are the size of drinking straws? I think to get the kind of bucks we are striving for is going to take at least 2 generations of planned breeding and more likely 3 generations of planned breedings that have everything fall perfectly into place.
Joined Apr 2009
1,130 Posts | 0+
Columbia, MO
Hi Kurt
He has a typical frame of 113+111+22=246
Subtract difference and non-typical points of 17 and 45
He is about 184 net!
But a GREAT GREAT deer non-the-less. If he didn't have the non-typicals he would be about 229 net.
But if Monkeys could fly......
Sam
He has a typical frame of 113+111+22=246
Subtract difference and non-typical points of 17 and 45
He is about 184 net!
But a GREAT GREAT deer non-the-less. If he didn't have the non-typicals he would be about 229 net.
But if Monkeys could fly......
Sam
45 inches of abnormals????? this would never be considered to be a typical deer although it has a large typical frame.
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