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Without hunters we all starve! Please comment

How does the future of high fence hunting look?

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Joined Jun 2009
228 Posts | 0+
Tyrone, PA
The following is a projected opinion of what the future of the deer business may hold.



As a deer farmer I personally believe that our industry will see very hard times if we do not hear this warning! This is absolutely critical for the future of this industry.



Before I begin with what has been on my mind for several years now I would like to recognize that I love and believe in this business and will do any honest and legal idea to promote this industry and survive as a full time deer farmer. It's truly been a blessing to be a part of it all.



Our philosophy of promotion in this business is totally backwards. We spend hundreds of thousands of dollars as breeders promoting our genetics as an industry. Individually, we buy great looking adds in sale catalogs, deer farming publications and mailings. Of course we spare no expense for add design, position in the magazines we advertise in or timing of the add to promote a lot we will sell later that year. We build great booths for the shows and spend a considerable chuck on taxidermy. Web design and internet consume a lot of our money and time as well.



I am no stranger to any of the above. In fact I'll admit I'm as guilty as anyone here. I'll personally spend $15,000 on a video advertising campaign this year with 5,800 High Definition DVD's being mailed out in the next two weeks, $15,000+ for design and adds in various magazines, $5,000+ in booths in many of the Top auctions and traveling expenses that usually add up to around $3,000. With miscellaneous expenses added RWJ Whitetails will spend about $50,000 in marketing the genetics that I have to offer this year.



Why do I share all this personal information with you? If we as an industry do not start to recognize that our end product is the HUNTING RANCH we will only build a false business model that will never sustain any long term economic recession.



What if??? We would spend our money advertising to our end market. The Hunter! Imagine a joined effort of a $1,000,000 a year, advertising campaign to promote high fence hunting and the joy of this experience.



Full sponsorship of the leading TV hunting programs cost around $250,000 per year. That would be nonstop commercials when ever that particular program is on the air. Every time Lee and Tiffany drawl the string on a huge whitetail the viewers at home will also be seeing two hunters going to the woods and closing the high fence gate behind them! Now Imagine 4 of the highest rated TV hunting shows openly hunting and bragging about how great high fence hunting operations are! And for the person reading this post that doesn't believe that there favorite TV hunting hero would ever do this believe me they all ready do. We have had dozens of professional hunters and may videos taken on our preserves that we see later that year being represented as wild and totally free chase hunting.



Pull this off and it would change a lot of negativity about what we do. If we as an industry continue to spend all of our state and national moneys trying to keep lobbyists and lawyers on our side we may win small battles but will lose the war in the long run. Whatever side the people support and vote will ultimately decide the outcome of our future. We need the hunters on our side! Also, we will be recruiting a new generation of hunters to our preserves and will insure health and stability in our breeding markets.



What about a web site paying off all the domain names and being listed and talked about on these new TV advertisements with an exciting message about high fence hunting. The hunter logs on to this site and will find every hunting preserve in the nation listed by state. This site could be free for anyone wishing to add there link to its massive database. Pop up adds and larger picture adds could be sold on this site to the individual preserves to maximize their own web site traffic. Virtual hunting and cameras could be added to the main Web site by individual preserves for hunters to view what we have to offer in the comfort of their own home. This would get a lot of attention. The adds paid by the preserves could potentially raise even more monies that could outreach to even more hunters.



Now we are starting to invest in a future! I could go on all day here. What do you guys think? I'm a positive and forward thinking breeder and wish to do this for a long time. I would be the first to step to the plate to donate some great semen and a great animal to the auction company willing to put on a sale with 100% of the proceeds going to build a future for our business we all love so much. These a just ruff ideas and I would love to here from you.
 
Russ Jr., I can't say that I disagree with anything you say. I am not among those deer breeders who think that you preserve owners have it made. You know the story. We, the breeders, do all the hard work, putting 3 or 4 years into our bucks trying to keep them alive and you preserve owners come along and offer us half or so of what the hunt will bring, have the deer on your preserve for a week and bingo! you just made as much money off our deer as we did. People that think that don't take into consideration the expenses preserves have in promotion, lodges or motel and food expenses, etc. Then there's the 130" shooter you buy that kills a 180 incher in the preserve. Believe me, I do not envy the work involved in running a preserve. Preserve owners earn their money.



Now, having said that, I have to say that I think that the preserve owners have been less than active in either organizing their own associations or even in being active in the state deer associations. I always felt uncomfortable trying to represent preserves while I was active in our state association. And perhaps the problem only exists in my state, but it just seems to me that preserve owners are very few and far between on deer assn. boards. I have to say that if a plan such as you suggest was brought up to our board and then presented to the membership for a vote, I would push for passage. Anyone who doesn't realize that the preserve industry is all that separates us from the emu industry isn't being realistic. There is industry money out there and I know that NADeFA is working on getting out the message for our industry. This is something that you should work on further and present to NADeFA for consideration.
 
Russ Jr, I like the idea and wish something like this could be put together. The issue I see is 8 out of 10 breeding farms and 9 out of 10 hunting ranches won't do a darn thing to help their own butts make any headway in this industry. They would rather sit back and let everyone else do everything for them.

The membership numbers for NADEFA and every state org show that.

But I am in if these ideas are put in play. Let's go!
 
Russ Jr. you hit the nail on the head......could not have been put more clearly. This Industry depends on the Preserves to drive our market.........OUR MARKET FOLKS!! We do need to listen to what is being said here it is the facts!! Russ pleas read your pvt messages......thanks!
 
Stevel

I only wish we got double for what we pay for them! On the the smaller bucks yes but not on the bigger animals. Lose one of those animals...fighten to break even.
 
You surprised me with this post, Russ.



For as long as I have been raising deer I always fought for equality among the big boys and the little boys - striving for level playing fields which would give anybody the same opportunity to raise and sell these magnificent animals.



I realized several years ago that this industry (the breeding part of it anyway) has matured into nothing more than a seemingly mans-man contest to see who can spend the most and have the bragging rights. The breeding aspect of this industry has became somewhat like a resemblance to Jay Leno's car collection. Yea, they sure would be nice to have and they do look good and cost a lot of money, but it is the $5,000 vehicles that get most Americans to work each and every day so they can afford to own a home and TV that will allow them to watch Jay brag about his car collection. Forgive me if this is a false illusion of the deer industry, but this is how I came to fathom the deer breeding end of it.



Our true backbone to this industry is the hunting preserves. IMHO, without an outlet for the majority of the farmers to move products to and at a fair and reasonable price, there is absolutely no reward what so ever driving the erg to upgrade to better stock. Most folks are thinking why take a chance and reinvest into the industry and new genetics when there are already more animals being raised then we as an industry can sell. I think most folks on the low and middle end are hunkering down in order to survive, which only takes away from the money reinvested back into the industry.



I think that some people are also hoping that a lot of people will sell out in these hard times. This thinking is a big mistake which will only lower our numbers. With a lower number of participants, we as an industry are not as strong politically. We have rallied the troops on more than one occasion over the last nine years to increase participation in our local and national organizations. Look at how far we as an industry have come in those nine years... :)





A couple weeks ago I posted something similar to your idea - in regards to the Allied Milk Producers of Western Pa. I think we as an industry can learn a lot from them with what they have accomplished in promoting milk products to the end user. We are not the first, nor the last, people to take animals an put them behind a fence and turn it into a commercial operation. I strongly feel that we as an industry need to take a closer look at other forms of successful livestock farming to find our answers on how to balance the industry and make it even stronger.



I also agree that we as an industry are maturing. But, I also feel we are trying to run the industry day by day rather than having and steering a balanced and reasonable set of goals that strengthen every aspect of the industry.



Roger brings up a good point. How do we encourage participation? This is just an idea, but how about making it a co-op of sorts where members share benefits of participating preserves, breeders and whole sale buyers? All participants contribute a percentage of each sale, much like sales tax, which supplies the funds for advertising and promotion.



These are, as you said, just some "ruff ideas". I am all for giving it my 110% if it is something that can and will benefit everyone involved in the deer industry - little and big guy alike. I don't feel the top guys should be the only contributors carrying the load on this one. If we can pull this off - everyone will/can benefit.







Regards,

John
 
Amen John!! Anyone in this industry Big or small should be (if truly interested in seeing this Industry grow) jumping all over this idea. By no means should anyone be footing the bill more than any others. We as farmers will all benefit equally in every aspect from this. I was hoping to see a lot more comments on this I surely hope their is more of an interest than the comments that are coming through.......this is truly an un selfish idea with the best interest for our Industry in mind. Think about it.........Heck even the people with the Alpacas are doing it on the cable channels and they really have no end market. I am all in!!
 
Thank you Russ for such a well needed post. Count on Apple Creeks support. Should round table be set up at upcoming auction?

Scott
 
I have a very simple and free thing most of us could do. Do an internet search of preserves in your area and then go to your web site and post links to their site. It gives them a little bit more advertising for no out of pocket cost plus it might help you out when it comes time to sell shooters if you are advertising for them.
 
Russ Walk Jr.



I agree 100% in what you say above. With that I will tell you that there is a farm that is going it alone in taking the very steps you just spoke of. Cameras have already started rolling and a major deal has been struck to get the videos to the hunters. I was there the first day of filming took place and I can only tell you that this will be one of the biggest boosters the industry has ever sen in the public eye. Feel free to contact me for more information on what is going on. I tried to reach you several times when we started but I could not get you on the phone.
 
Russ Jr. I have a to agree with most of what you said. I feel the ad campaign on the TV shows would need to stay focused only on a few shows as you say and stay with them. I don't think advertising in magazines is a way to go. Others can come in with their ads and letters to the editors to offset your gains. Computer advertising may very well hurt as well, unless people can not post anything. On TV shows no one can throw in an opinion. I feel it should definately be targeted for the TV shows almost completely. I disagree with you on two things. First on lobbyists. We have seen a national turnaround in how we are treated since states and NADeFA started fighting back. We can't advertise enough to help if politicians voted us out of existence. In Oklahoma for example we are recognized as not being a power broker in state politics, but being families that live and work hard for a future we believe in. People who raise good, honest, hard working and productive children. We have 4 preserve owners on the Whitetails of Oklahoma board. NADeFA and other national associations also command national respect from leaders of both parties in Washington D.C. We must not fall into the complacent state of mind that our country seems to be in. If so we will be attacked again and will not see it coming. The largest stride NADeFA has made in the fight for our existence has came from the hard work of our board, our Executive Directors (Holly and Shawn), members and from our National lobbyists. ------Second thing i disagree with------ Ain't no way you are winnin all that semen. Its mine.
 
Post by Russ Walk Jr,



"What about a web site paying off all the domain names and being listed and talked about on these new TV advertisements with an exciting message about high fence hunting. The hunter logs on to this site and will find every hunting preserve in the nation listed by state. This site could be free for anyone wishing to add there link to its massive database. Pop up adds and larger picture adds could be sold on this site to the individual preserves to maximize their own web site traffic. Virtual hunting and cameras could be added to the main Web site by individual preserves for hunters to view what we have to offer in the comfort of their own home. This would get a lot of attention. The adds paid by the preserves could potentially raise even more monies that could outreach to even more hunters."





This is exactly what DeerSpace is doing. An anouncement was made about the site launch several weeks ago. The idea of the site was to get the industry together. No string attached. I am not trying to sell this site to anyone. The site brings in hunters, preserves and deer farmers all to one place for free. The site is not meant to compete with any other sites on the internet. It is not a source for income for any of the parties involved in the developement of it. It "TRUELY" is a site that was developed to promote the industry. The site is a tool for all. We are already working with several hunting video companies that have agree to advertise the site. The footwork has already been done. Staff trucks, tv banners, and hunting equipment already bare the website logo.





John Swank,



We listened to farmers like you that wanted the following:





"Roger brings up a good point. How do we encourage participation? This is just an idea, but how about making it a co-op of sorts where members share benefits of participating preserves, breeders and whole sale buyers?"



We have wholesale buyers on the site looking for deer right now. To get the participation from all in the industry we offered everything for free.





Like I said before I am not selling a thing in this post. All I am doing is shedding light on the wesite and what it was built to do. The site was built and sponsored to promote the industry as a whole as many of you have asked for. Check out the site, if you have ideas or would like to make a comment on what you think would help the industry then let us know. I joined the deerspace crew to help the industry. I have not been paid a single dime to do what I have done there. I have donated 100% of my time to get the site up and going because I knew there was a need for it. All I can say is that you have "NOTHING" to lose and the industry has a lot to gain from a site like deerspace.
 
Aaron ...

I must say I really like the site.

I think it could be a great thing!

I really hope more people use it...I love that the auctions and classifieds are free, And I noticed a lot of people in the hunting industry (every thing from hunters to equipment sellers) are using it.I like that it brings us all together.
 
Aaron,

You know i love the site and have pushed for it since you started........it is a great tool to be used for the Industry and links everyone together for once. This is a site you can go to and have everything you need right there at your finger tips for free!!
 
In my opinion some of the hunting shows would not like High Fence commercials on there show.They like to think they are the greatest deer hunters in the world.I agree we need more advertising for the hunting preserves.
 
Russ Jr. , great post. We will help in any way we can. I think the hunting shows will be a strong tool to get our message out to the public. I also think Keith Warren would be an awesome spokesman for this idea. He is a very outspoken, upbeat and solidly behind our industry. When you get this going count me (us) in. I'll help however you need.
 
All of us have seen many changes in this business over time. We sacrificed and weathered many storms and been victorious to keep our borders open and won the right to own and raise deer. The deer industry has grown like no other. Why, because the elusive whitetail grips the heart of every outdoors person and we are proud of our industry as breeders and have advertised it from coast to coast, from Mexico to Canada. In the past we have faced political and disease issues, TB, CWD etc. and weathered the storms. But the storm we face now, we have created. Over the last 10 years, deer breeders, through persistent advertising, have increased our numbers by almost 400%. Because of this increase of deer breeders and the amount of deer on the market, especially shooters, there is an abundance of deer in most states. Where did we go wrong? We took a 200BC deer and turned it into a 400BC and multiplied the breeders by 400%. But we never established an outlet for our shooters. The outlet for our shooter bucks is hunters coming to hunting ranches. Deer breeding and hunting ranches are of the same business, but they have two different functions. Breeders breed or produce a product, the hunting ranches shoot, deliver or distribute the breeders product. There are thousands of breeders across the country, compared to just hundreds of hunting ranches. The thousands of breeders spend millions of dollars advertising their deer while the hundreds of ranches shoulder the responsibility to advertise all the deer breeders’ bucks. In my opinion, there would not be enough bucks in this country if we would have advertised the shooter bucks with the same zeal as we have our breeding herds.

Many breeders think the problem we have is temporary and is a reflection of the down turn in the economy. To some extent this is true. But in reality, our problem started three or four years ago when the shooters of 2009 were born. We have a problem that is not going to get better, even if the economy does recover. My reason for believing this is there were ten times as many buck fawns born this year as four years ago. With out advertising the hunting, the problem will continue to compound, getting worse every year. Some breeders have talked about holding their shooters until next year. There is no future in holding any amount of shooters. It just means higher feed bills, more work, over-crowded pens, higher death losses and twice as many bucks on the market for next year. May I make a point? If we do not sell the shooters this year, how we will sell twice as many shooter bucks to the hunting ranches next year, unless, hear me now, “Unless we do three times the advertising to pull in more hunters to the ranches” .

Fellow deer breeders, it’s up to us, you, me and our deer associations to advertise to get more hunters. This can be done by advertising on radio, TV, hunting magazines or one on one, Every one of us is guilty of sitting on our porches, phone and computers bragging about our stacked pedigrees or our biggest yearling. But we never mention a word about the benefits and the excitement of hunting white-tail bucks behind high fence to our friends, co-workers and neighbors.

It’s sad. There are some deer breeders who openly speak negatively about high fenced hunting. This type of deer breeder is like a Ford pick-up manufacturer who makes Ford pick-ups, sells Ford pick-ups but tells his neighbors he would never drive a Ford pick-up.

Do you want to get on the good side of a hunting ranch owner? Call him or better yet stop and visit him and ask for a hand full of brochures to pass out. I’m willing to bet if you, through your efforts, sold a deer hunt or two, you would soon be on the top of the hunting ranchers list to sell your deer.



Fellow breeders, the storm is upon us. If we continue down the path we have taken over the last five years, in the next five years, many deer raisers will not weather the storm.

A thought becomes a word. A word becomes an action, and action changes circunstances.



Always remember: 100% of the deer that do not die in your pens are shot!
 
My next column in Whitetail Heartbeat addresses this issue and gives a solution. Many good points have been made here. WE have promoted our farms with zest and zeal but have ignored the end product of our industry.
 
Aaron,



Deerspace.com is GREAT. This site is great for NEW farmers like myself who want to advertise for FREE for people like us who do not have the funds yet to advertise or promote our business. It is wonderful to be able to have an auction where there is no commission fee or listing fee. Thanks again Aaron & keep up the good work on DEERSPACE.com