Don h I'm glad to hear you are addressing this issue in your column.......it is the next vital step we need to take as an industry if we are going to continue to grow!!
How much do preserve owners usually spend on advertising?
Im trying to do my part -this friday I am taking some friends who have a tv show coming out this fall on there first deer farming tour.And he also owns a very popular web site.
It would be nice if preserve owners would offer overnight stays to guys like my friend who could change others opinions .
I am also going to advertise the preserve that buys my shooters on his website.
Im trying to do my part -this friday I am taking some friends who have a tv show coming out this fall on there first deer farming tour.And he also owns a very popular web site.
It would be nice if preserve owners would offer overnight stays to guys like my friend who could change others opinions .
I am also going to advertise the preserve that buys my shooters on his website.
Wisdom your last post is accurate as to what I am seeing here on the other side (Hunting Ranch). As I see it we basically have 2 options here.
1st we wake up! Re- organize our efforts, ask our national and state originations to help or spearhead the project, ask a major sale company to step forward, develop a national outreach to recruit new hunters, step to the advertising plate with a huge hammer ($1,000,000+) no tiny advertising tickle, drive hundreds of thousands of potential hunters to our web site, bring aboard all who wish to "continue deer farming" as Co-Op board of outreach members or add this to the existing national board (NADEFA) and start to finally build a stable future for our markets.
Tim, you are very right when you mention what the lobbyist have done for us and the amazing work being headed up by NADEFA. That's why I generously donate to that organization. The NADEFA board never gets the credit they deserve.
I'm saying that this is desperate times in our countries financial health. Our hunting preserves are down 50% and hunting in general is falling off with the next generation. Pennsylvania alone sold 1.8 million hunting licenses just a few years ago. Last year we were down in the 600,000's. You see kids walking down the street texting all day long, they can't wait to get home and play the Play Station or get on the computer. This is the next generation of hunters and that's why statistics show hunting licenses dropping off; 75% of the loss is in people under 30 years of age. We are already fighting an uphill battle with hunting in general but its ludicrous not to market our outstanding whitetail product to the market we hope to sell it to. Many just have no idea what we have to offer or are tainted by the negative taste in their mouth that they have got from anti hunters or those purest hunters that want their 140 buck on the wall to represent the best buck in the county. We need a positive and exciting message to sound loudly that high fence hunting is no different than a stocked trout stream, released pheasants or every hunt available in Africa. Our message is "High fence means more fun!" and all the serious hunters are" going high fence for a better future". Marketing works! If you don't believe me just look at our current president! The media brain washed enough to put Obama in office and thats a much bigger feat then recruiting some new hunters.
My family just came back a few weeks ago from the Buck-a-Rama hunting show in Atlanta. We along with Apple Creek and Dream Ranch were a few to represent high fence hunting opportunities at that show. We had thousands of guys look at the very impressive display of antler and creative marketing ideas only to walk away disappointed that they would be unable to participate in our offers just because of the high fence and the mental block they had when they thought of it. Imagine if our positive advertising campaign could change the opinion of only 20% of these critical hunters. We would have potentially had opportunities to book over 300 hunts!!! And that's only one show! This year was the first year our company was unable to purchase at the Ohio shooter sale because we didn't need the bucks. Now imagine what that sale would have looked like had we bought 50+ bucks as we have in past years. Compound that with Apple Creek and Dream Ranch and the 3 of us could have bought every shooter in the sale, just from bookings at one hunting show! Yes, this is big talk, but you get the overall point here.
Option #2 We pretend all is well. A good day is around the corner and things will come back. Not gonna happen guys. This is about like saying gas prices were 89 cent just a few years back and just around the corner is gonna get better. Here is what is going to happen. Your shooters will continue to get cheaper as the next few years pass. Kevin Grace pulled off a great shooter sale in Ohio and I guarantee you nobody will get more for the same deer as that sell brought. Why? As Wisdom said "supply and demand". I'm getting calls regularly with desperate voices saying what can I get for my bucks? Everyone knows what I am saying is true. You can try to hide it in order to sell those last couple animals in the next sale, but there is a problem brewing from the core of our sales recruiting philosophy. The most successful breeders are biting there lip and gritting their teeth right now as they are reading this because by hiding this from you and projecting a false market they make money.
Our industry can answer this warning and turn around a poorly inherited business platform or slowly sink and someday soon, you will say man I wish we would have got started a long time ago in our marketing to the hunters!
Again, I am a positive, motivated thinking 30 year old aggressive breeder, and am still investing heavy in this business. In the last 14 months I've purchased 8 breeder bucks -Rolls Royce, Ebenezer, Noble, Legacy, Gold Digger, Time Bomb, Promise Land and Energizer. I've also spent over $300,000 on a new breeding facility to expand with future options and have added some smokin does to our lineup. I have no money man backing me and have worked my butt off trying to get some great deer. "I'm all in". I believe and am counting on the innovative ideas and business minded spirit that the great people of this industry has. Scott get the round table ready there is work to do. Deer breeders lets change a dim future to one with hope and prosperity. Top 30 breeders step up to the plate. Auction companies answer the call - we need a 100% donation sale towards creating a future advertising campaign. NADEFA and state associations we need your financial support and organizational expertise.
You can call me whatever you like but my heart is in this business and I'm only trying to stir a movement that will provide a future. Thanks for the great comments and posts guys. Aaron great site keep up the very unselfish work. Let's use this thread to throw more ideas around. We need Sam, Eric, Fred, Holly, Bruce, Harry, Mark, Will, Michael, Josh, Chad, Dustin, Alex, Greg, Nate, Jarrod, Reed, Scott, Tara, Jason, Rusty, John, Craig and so on... we need some words of advice, ideas, opinions, solutions, ect. This problem will not go away until it is addressed and aggressively worked on until fixed.
1st we wake up! Re- organize our efforts, ask our national and state originations to help or spearhead the project, ask a major sale company to step forward, develop a national outreach to recruit new hunters, step to the advertising plate with a huge hammer ($1,000,000+) no tiny advertising tickle, drive hundreds of thousands of potential hunters to our web site, bring aboard all who wish to "continue deer farming" as Co-Op board of outreach members or add this to the existing national board (NADEFA) and start to finally build a stable future for our markets.
Tim, you are very right when you mention what the lobbyist have done for us and the amazing work being headed up by NADEFA. That's why I generously donate to that organization. The NADEFA board never gets the credit they deserve.
I'm saying that this is desperate times in our countries financial health. Our hunting preserves are down 50% and hunting in general is falling off with the next generation. Pennsylvania alone sold 1.8 million hunting licenses just a few years ago. Last year we were down in the 600,000's. You see kids walking down the street texting all day long, they can't wait to get home and play the Play Station or get on the computer. This is the next generation of hunters and that's why statistics show hunting licenses dropping off; 75% of the loss is in people under 30 years of age. We are already fighting an uphill battle with hunting in general but its ludicrous not to market our outstanding whitetail product to the market we hope to sell it to. Many just have no idea what we have to offer or are tainted by the negative taste in their mouth that they have got from anti hunters or those purest hunters that want their 140 buck on the wall to represent the best buck in the county. We need a positive and exciting message to sound loudly that high fence hunting is no different than a stocked trout stream, released pheasants or every hunt available in Africa. Our message is "High fence means more fun!" and all the serious hunters are" going high fence for a better future". Marketing works! If you don't believe me just look at our current president! The media brain washed enough to put Obama in office and thats a much bigger feat then recruiting some new hunters.
My family just came back a few weeks ago from the Buck-a-Rama hunting show in Atlanta. We along with Apple Creek and Dream Ranch were a few to represent high fence hunting opportunities at that show. We had thousands of guys look at the very impressive display of antler and creative marketing ideas only to walk away disappointed that they would be unable to participate in our offers just because of the high fence and the mental block they had when they thought of it. Imagine if our positive advertising campaign could change the opinion of only 20% of these critical hunters. We would have potentially had opportunities to book over 300 hunts!!! And that's only one show! This year was the first year our company was unable to purchase at the Ohio shooter sale because we didn't need the bucks. Now imagine what that sale would have looked like had we bought 50+ bucks as we have in past years. Compound that with Apple Creek and Dream Ranch and the 3 of us could have bought every shooter in the sale, just from bookings at one hunting show! Yes, this is big talk, but you get the overall point here.
Option #2 We pretend all is well. A good day is around the corner and things will come back. Not gonna happen guys. This is about like saying gas prices were 89 cent just a few years back and just around the corner is gonna get better. Here is what is going to happen. Your shooters will continue to get cheaper as the next few years pass. Kevin Grace pulled off a great shooter sale in Ohio and I guarantee you nobody will get more for the same deer as that sell brought. Why? As Wisdom said "supply and demand". I'm getting calls regularly with desperate voices saying what can I get for my bucks? Everyone knows what I am saying is true. You can try to hide it in order to sell those last couple animals in the next sale, but there is a problem brewing from the core of our sales recruiting philosophy. The most successful breeders are biting there lip and gritting their teeth right now as they are reading this because by hiding this from you and projecting a false market they make money.
Our industry can answer this warning and turn around a poorly inherited business platform or slowly sink and someday soon, you will say man I wish we would have got started a long time ago in our marketing to the hunters!
Again, I am a positive, motivated thinking 30 year old aggressive breeder, and am still investing heavy in this business. In the last 14 months I've purchased 8 breeder bucks -Rolls Royce, Ebenezer, Noble, Legacy, Gold Digger, Time Bomb, Promise Land and Energizer. I've also spent over $300,000 on a new breeding facility to expand with future options and have added some smokin does to our lineup. I have no money man backing me and have worked my butt off trying to get some great deer. "I'm all in". I believe and am counting on the innovative ideas and business minded spirit that the great people of this industry has. Scott get the round table ready there is work to do. Deer breeders lets change a dim future to one with hope and prosperity. Top 30 breeders step up to the plate. Auction companies answer the call - we need a 100% donation sale towards creating a future advertising campaign. NADEFA and state associations we need your financial support and organizational expertise.
You can call me whatever you like but my heart is in this business and I'm only trying to stir a movement that will provide a future. Thanks for the great comments and posts guys. Aaron great site keep up the very unselfish work. Let's use this thread to throw more ideas around. We need Sam, Eric, Fred, Holly, Bruce, Harry, Mark, Will, Michael, Josh, Chad, Dustin, Alex, Greg, Nate, Jarrod, Reed, Scott, Tara, Jason, Rusty, John, Craig and so on... we need some words of advice, ideas, opinions, solutions, ect. This problem will not go away until it is addressed and aggressively worked on until fixed.
Guys we can have pitch after pitch of what we need to do and Russ Jr. has so kindly opened the door that needed to be opened. It is out in the open now where it needs to be.......as Russ said, we can bury our heads in the sand and die a slow death or wake up right now put our heads together and turn this market around. The numbers are there guys.......yes kids of today know little about hunting because that is how they were brought up.....it's not their fault it's our fault.....it's our local game and fish commissions fault there has been NO drive to win these newer generations hearts back into a pastime that has been enjoyed by millions since this Country was discovered. Heck, my own son was falling into the new wave of thinking that hunting is basically not cool.....until i took the initiative to sit down with him and talk and basically give him my sales pitch about something that is important to me and something that i enjoy......He now loves hunting and has more passion for it than I would have or could have ever imagined.......this is what needs to be done guys but on a much larger scale......we will win some battles and lose some but the ones we win will be the saving grace for this Industry. That is just the newer generation not to mention our generation that is currently hunting........their perspective of High fenced hunts is awful.....they see it as a canned hunt in a small fenced in area...where the hunter basically walks in and shops for a buck he likes and then shoots it....again, it's not their fault for thinking that way......it's our fault for not letting them know the truth about preserves and that it is just another way of hunting with a lot more excitement! It's like producing the coolest car ......it has all the bells and whistles anyone could ever want........but you don't advertise it and your neighbor puts out all kinds of negative advertising about it because he feels threatened you will take his business........so people come up and basically thier mouth waters when they see the car and they really want it....BUT the word out on the street is the car is not what it looks to be ..........so you walk away and there sits that perfect car with all the things anyone could ever want a car to have but it never sells because the public has been miss informed.............you do some positive advertising and people give the car a try and the next thing you know the cars are selling out everywhere!
may not be the best analogy in the world but that is basically where we are right now with our Industry..........we got the product and it has all the bells and whistles everyone wants.....but they ahve been miss informed and until we change that ........that is where we sit!!
Russ, I really feel a new Board needs to be developed and their sole purpose in life is MARKETING for our Industry......I feel if we try to over burden the currrent boards such as Nadefa with this issue it will never get the attention it needs (not that I don't have faith in their board i just feel they have a full plate as is with everything they do).
Another very important thing we all need to do is Pray folks. God is our most powerful tool. I'm not going to preach here i am merely asking for your prayers as they are very much needed.......as it is said, where two or three of you are gathered in my name I will be there! It is because of our ignorance as a nation by seperating God from it that we are in the current mess we are in as a country. God is giving us exactly what we have been asking him for......and that is to stay away....that we don't need him ....that he needs to be seperate from our government......our schools......and so on .......look at where it has gotten us! Please......lets not make this same mistake with our industry........God will answer our prayers.........God will help.......WE just need to let him be apart of it.
Russ i know our first priority is to raise funds. However, I do know a company that is very successful in Marketing in the hunting Industry. This IS their business....they have clients such as Mossy oak, Real Tree outdoors and many of the big players in the industry.......they are good at what they do. I would be happy to talk about them in more detail once we are at that step in the process. They could be a very good canidate to run our national marketing campaign.
I think a 100% donation sale to get things off the ground for the advertising campaign is a great idea. Why couldn't there be a small percentage be taken from each consignment at the sales which would go directly towards these efforts as well. Once this is off and running there needs to be a steady flow of income being invested towards the campaign in order to keep it successful. It would not be fair to only ask for these percentages at our sales.......small percentages from advertisements in the deer magazines, websites and anywhere else our deer farmers advertise could be put towards the advertising campaign. Once the campaign is up and going it will be able to generate it's own revenue through advertisments as well......I'm sure there are lot's of breeders out there that would love to see their farms advetised on TV!!
Many of these hunting programs have used our preserves as a way of promoting their products and sellling their videos under a false notion that they are hunting in the wild with NO high fences. They save a lot of money by being able to come to the preserve and be able to film a quick successful hunt that in the wild may have taken weeks to get on film. It's time they pay their dues and start promoting our Industry as well. They need us as much as we need them.....we are all on the same playing feild. The hunters in our industry purchase their videos, hunt in their clothing, use their game calls.....so i see nothing wrong with asking for a little in return and that would be positive advertising about our industry........preserves could offer some free hunts to these hunting video producers in return for free advertising about their hunting preserve and positive advertising for our Industry as well.
Too bad we couldn't just do like the government does when they need money and just implement a 2,3,4 5,6 or 7% tax on all sales across the board within our industry.......boy wouldn't that be easy!?
We are at the here and now guys and *****.......this will not go away......if left alone it will with out a doubt get worse..........the strong will survive for as long as they can but even they will meet their end if the numbers keep falling as they are. If this doesn't scare you and motivate you to want to do something IT SHOULD. It really should. Don't hold back because you think your ideals might be stupid.......no idea or thought about how we can turn our Industry around is stupid.........their are a lot of bright minds out there, lets keep those thoughts and suggestions comming our Industry is depending on it. Let's give this the attention it NEEDS!! This should be the Hottest thread going in these forums........We all share to gain from this campaign lets make it work!!!
may not be the best analogy in the world but that is basically where we are right now with our Industry..........we got the product and it has all the bells and whistles everyone wants.....but they ahve been miss informed and until we change that ........that is where we sit!!
Russ, I really feel a new Board needs to be developed and their sole purpose in life is MARKETING for our Industry......I feel if we try to over burden the currrent boards such as Nadefa with this issue it will never get the attention it needs (not that I don't have faith in their board i just feel they have a full plate as is with everything they do).
Another very important thing we all need to do is Pray folks. God is our most powerful tool. I'm not going to preach here i am merely asking for your prayers as they are very much needed.......as it is said, where two or three of you are gathered in my name I will be there! It is because of our ignorance as a nation by seperating God from it that we are in the current mess we are in as a country. God is giving us exactly what we have been asking him for......and that is to stay away....that we don't need him ....that he needs to be seperate from our government......our schools......and so on .......look at where it has gotten us! Please......lets not make this same mistake with our industry........God will answer our prayers.........God will help.......WE just need to let him be apart of it.
Russ i know our first priority is to raise funds. However, I do know a company that is very successful in Marketing in the hunting Industry. This IS their business....they have clients such as Mossy oak, Real Tree outdoors and many of the big players in the industry.......they are good at what they do. I would be happy to talk about them in more detail once we are at that step in the process. They could be a very good canidate to run our national marketing campaign.
I think a 100% donation sale to get things off the ground for the advertising campaign is a great idea. Why couldn't there be a small percentage be taken from each consignment at the sales which would go directly towards these efforts as well. Once this is off and running there needs to be a steady flow of income being invested towards the campaign in order to keep it successful. It would not be fair to only ask for these percentages at our sales.......small percentages from advertisements in the deer magazines, websites and anywhere else our deer farmers advertise could be put towards the advertising campaign. Once the campaign is up and going it will be able to generate it's own revenue through advertisments as well......I'm sure there are lot's of breeders out there that would love to see their farms advetised on TV!!
Many of these hunting programs have used our preserves as a way of promoting their products and sellling their videos under a false notion that they are hunting in the wild with NO high fences. They save a lot of money by being able to come to the preserve and be able to film a quick successful hunt that in the wild may have taken weeks to get on film. It's time they pay their dues and start promoting our Industry as well. They need us as much as we need them.....we are all on the same playing feild. The hunters in our industry purchase their videos, hunt in their clothing, use their game calls.....so i see nothing wrong with asking for a little in return and that would be positive advertising about our industry........preserves could offer some free hunts to these hunting video producers in return for free advertising about their hunting preserve and positive advertising for our Industry as well.
Too bad we couldn't just do like the government does when they need money and just implement a 2,3,4 5,6 or 7% tax on all sales across the board within our industry.......boy wouldn't that be easy!?
We are at the here and now guys and *****.......this will not go away......if left alone it will with out a doubt get worse..........the strong will survive for as long as they can but even they will meet their end if the numbers keep falling as they are. If this doesn't scare you and motivate you to want to do something IT SHOULD. It really should. Don't hold back because you think your ideals might be stupid.......no idea or thought about how we can turn our Industry around is stupid.........their are a lot of bright minds out there, lets keep those thoughts and suggestions comming our Industry is depending on it. Let's give this the attention it NEEDS!! This should be the Hottest thread going in these forums........We all share to gain from this campaign lets make it work!!!
Russ Jr, thanks for getting the ball rolling on this. Like I said, I addressed this in my latest Heartbeat article but there is no sense waiting to read it if people are ready to act now. I will give you a very short condensed version. A few issues back I outlined an idea for a "check-off program" similar to what the beef, pork and soybean industries do. Here is a short take from that past article-
In past columns I have mentioned my former involvement with the cattle and hog industries. I often get ideas for advancing one of my ventures by looking at another venture and what was successful with it. That is the basis for this idea. Any time that I sold cattle or hogs at the local auction barn or stockyards, I had a fee deducted from my check for either the “beef check-off” or “pork check-off”. The National Cattlemens Association and the Pork Producers Council used these funds to promote their respective industries. You have probably heard their campaign slogans – “Pork – the other white meat” or “Beef, its whats for dinner”. You may have also seen TV commercials or magazine advertisements using these slogans to prompt consumers to buy more beef or pork. These were funded by check-off contributions. These check-off campaigns were so successful with beef and pork that later the soybean industry adopted their own check-off program. I think it is time that the whitetail farming industry considers a similar “check-off” program to promote itself as well. After all, aren’t we promoting ourselves as raising “livestock” and alternative farming? Maybe it is time we started acting like a legitimate farming activity with our own check-off?
Since writing that column I have learned that some guys in Ohio have already proposed the check-off idea. Russ Jr or anyone else who wants to get this rolling; I would suggest that you call Emanual "Mony" Weaver and speak with him. I have becomes friends with Mony and we have spoken about this check-off idea and he may already have something in the works (not sure). I know for sure that he can share some info from his pursuit of the idea. I would suggest an auction to build the treasury and then keep it flowing with a check-off program. I will add this bit of caution- when I wrote the article quoted above I planned to interview all the whitetail auction gurus. The first 2 that I spoke with were 100% behind the idea and agreed to do it in their sales. The third guy had no interest in helping out. His attitude kept me from pursuing the interviews further and from doing anything with the idea. My next article brings it up again because I think the time is right to act. This has to be an all or nothing deal just as the other agricultural check-off programs are. No matter where I would go to sell cattle, I would have check-off dollars subtracted from the sale price. It needs to be the same way with whitetails.
Finally, I want to say that much of what we are seeing is due to the economy. Just yesterday I was in Pike County, Illinois doing some habitat work for a client. I also had to meet up with an outfitter from the area to discuss some work we are doing on the same property. Most of us know that Pike County is one of the premier destinations for whitetail hunters from around the world. The area is an outfitting hotbed. This outfitter told me that overall bookings for hunts are only one third of what they normally are. Many outfitters are afraid they wont even be able to pay for their land lease contracts. I am hearing very similar comments from preserve owners where our deer are harvested. This clearly shows that much of what we are seeing in our industry is related to the economy. Hunters are not traveling this year like they have in the past, either to shooting preserves or to outfitted destinations to hunt wild deer. Like Russ aluded to, the Obama years might be tough on us but these tough years are when we need to buckle down and get things in place for the day when Obama is gone and the sun again shines.
I want to throw out one last item and it will probably ruffle some feathers. Most deer farmers do not own a shooting preserve so they depend on the preserves to treat them fairly. The preserves need to be working together with the deer farmers. I remember the day when the guy that raised a buck could expect to get 50% of the hunt price while the preserve owner got the other 50%. As the number of bucks available have increased some preserve owners have really hammered the folks they buy bucks from. I completely understand the laws of supply and demand BUT if we are going to make a major national program which basically is increasing the number of clients to preserves, and if that program is funded as much by the guy who simply raises deer to sell to preserves as the preserves themselves, then all parties need to be treated fairly. Otherwise, why would a deer farmer raising 10 or so shooter bucks care at all about the program? I just throw this out so right here at the very early stages of developing a program, this issue needs to be dealt with, not later when preserve owners start hammering buck growers. This comment was not intended to offend anyone. I have a preserve that I have sold to in the past (Cedar Ridge "foodplot" on here) who treats me very fair but I have become friends with the owners and we often do each other favors besides just buying and selling each others deer. I also have sold deer to Sam James and he has always been extremely fair. If a board is put together to get this thing going I would strongly suggest having one or both of these guys on that board as I believe they truly have the best interest of the industry at heart and not just their own bank account.
In past columns I have mentioned my former involvement with the cattle and hog industries. I often get ideas for advancing one of my ventures by looking at another venture and what was successful with it. That is the basis for this idea. Any time that I sold cattle or hogs at the local auction barn or stockyards, I had a fee deducted from my check for either the “beef check-off” or “pork check-off”. The National Cattlemens Association and the Pork Producers Council used these funds to promote their respective industries. You have probably heard their campaign slogans – “Pork – the other white meat” or “Beef, its whats for dinner”. You may have also seen TV commercials or magazine advertisements using these slogans to prompt consumers to buy more beef or pork. These were funded by check-off contributions. These check-off campaigns were so successful with beef and pork that later the soybean industry adopted their own check-off program. I think it is time that the whitetail farming industry considers a similar “check-off” program to promote itself as well. After all, aren’t we promoting ourselves as raising “livestock” and alternative farming? Maybe it is time we started acting like a legitimate farming activity with our own check-off?
Since writing that column I have learned that some guys in Ohio have already proposed the check-off idea. Russ Jr or anyone else who wants to get this rolling; I would suggest that you call Emanual "Mony" Weaver and speak with him. I have becomes friends with Mony and we have spoken about this check-off idea and he may already have something in the works (not sure). I know for sure that he can share some info from his pursuit of the idea. I would suggest an auction to build the treasury and then keep it flowing with a check-off program. I will add this bit of caution- when I wrote the article quoted above I planned to interview all the whitetail auction gurus. The first 2 that I spoke with were 100% behind the idea and agreed to do it in their sales. The third guy had no interest in helping out. His attitude kept me from pursuing the interviews further and from doing anything with the idea. My next article brings it up again because I think the time is right to act. This has to be an all or nothing deal just as the other agricultural check-off programs are. No matter where I would go to sell cattle, I would have check-off dollars subtracted from the sale price. It needs to be the same way with whitetails.
Finally, I want to say that much of what we are seeing is due to the economy. Just yesterday I was in Pike County, Illinois doing some habitat work for a client. I also had to meet up with an outfitter from the area to discuss some work we are doing on the same property. Most of us know that Pike County is one of the premier destinations for whitetail hunters from around the world. The area is an outfitting hotbed. This outfitter told me that overall bookings for hunts are only one third of what they normally are. Many outfitters are afraid they wont even be able to pay for their land lease contracts. I am hearing very similar comments from preserve owners where our deer are harvested. This clearly shows that much of what we are seeing in our industry is related to the economy. Hunters are not traveling this year like they have in the past, either to shooting preserves or to outfitted destinations to hunt wild deer. Like Russ aluded to, the Obama years might be tough on us but these tough years are when we need to buckle down and get things in place for the day when Obama is gone and the sun again shines.
I want to throw out one last item and it will probably ruffle some feathers. Most deer farmers do not own a shooting preserve so they depend on the preserves to treat them fairly. The preserves need to be working together with the deer farmers. I remember the day when the guy that raised a buck could expect to get 50% of the hunt price while the preserve owner got the other 50%. As the number of bucks available have increased some preserve owners have really hammered the folks they buy bucks from. I completely understand the laws of supply and demand BUT if we are going to make a major national program which basically is increasing the number of clients to preserves, and if that program is funded as much by the guy who simply raises deer to sell to preserves as the preserves themselves, then all parties need to be treated fairly. Otherwise, why would a deer farmer raising 10 or so shooter bucks care at all about the program? I just throw this out so right here at the very early stages of developing a program, this issue needs to be dealt with, not later when preserve owners start hammering buck growers. This comment was not intended to offend anyone. I have a preserve that I have sold to in the past (Cedar Ridge "foodplot" on here) who treats me very fair but I have become friends with the owners and we often do each other favors besides just buying and selling each others deer. I also have sold deer to Sam James and he has always been extremely fair. If a board is put together to get this thing going I would strongly suggest having one or both of these guys on that board as I believe they truly have the best interest of the industry at heart and not just their own bank account.
Don H,
I like the check-off idea.....it is basically like a tax but the dollars actually do go towards working for our Industry and we would have control of where it's spent.....sounds like a great plan especially if it has been successful in the past.
I like the check-off idea.....it is basically like a tax but the dollars actually do go towards working for our Industry and we would have control of where it's spent.....sounds like a great plan especially if it has been successful in the past.
Joined Apr 2009
519 Posts | 1+
Rivesville, WV
Hey Russ Jr,
once again you have stirred something up and got people talking. I think this is great. But some of this has already started on smaller scales. One hunting show had already aired a documentary so to speak about the preserves and their operations. I forget who it is that aired it but it was a great boost for deer farmers and preserves.
The other thing, here in West Virginia we have already started a similar campaign. We have very few deer farmers here in WV (about 35), and we have 4 hunting preserves. Of these 35 breeding farms, there are only a select few that are doing large scale business. So, to put it bluntly, we don't have enough deer being supplied to these ranches...we need more deer farmers. Two years ago we had the idea to creat a TV commercial and air it as much as we could afford. I personally did several hours worth of video taping at several deer farms. We worked with a local TV station and did the editing. With very little time and money we had a commercial being aired. Our target market was the middle class landowner that liked to hunt, and perhaps had the drive to be a deer farmer.
The commercial worked. My phone rang off the hook every time the commercial aired....sometimes even at 3am. We were successful in getting a handful of new recruits over a years time, and now have them licensed and operating. The biggest success that we claim to have is that we took the time to educate alot of people about what we do. We had hundreds of phone calls asking if this was legal. We were able to educate hundreds of people about deer farming. People that we nomally wouldn't have contact with. We feel that we were able to reverse some of the ill effects that the DNR had over some of these people.
We have targetted the fall and winter months for our advertising. That is when "guys" are in deer mode, and also the same time when people watch the most television. Many TV stations will give better deals during these months, because business is generally fairly slow for advertising.
I have an excellent top of the line video camera. I will gladly donate my time and help any state organization interested in creating a commercial.
once again you have stirred something up and got people talking. I think this is great. But some of this has already started on smaller scales. One hunting show had already aired a documentary so to speak about the preserves and their operations. I forget who it is that aired it but it was a great boost for deer farmers and preserves.
The other thing, here in West Virginia we have already started a similar campaign. We have very few deer farmers here in WV (about 35), and we have 4 hunting preserves. Of these 35 breeding farms, there are only a select few that are doing large scale business. So, to put it bluntly, we don't have enough deer being supplied to these ranches...we need more deer farmers. Two years ago we had the idea to creat a TV commercial and air it as much as we could afford. I personally did several hours worth of video taping at several deer farms. We worked with a local TV station and did the editing. With very little time and money we had a commercial being aired. Our target market was the middle class landowner that liked to hunt, and perhaps had the drive to be a deer farmer.
The commercial worked. My phone rang off the hook every time the commercial aired....sometimes even at 3am. We were successful in getting a handful of new recruits over a years time, and now have them licensed and operating. The biggest success that we claim to have is that we took the time to educate alot of people about what we do. We had hundreds of phone calls asking if this was legal. We were able to educate hundreds of people about deer farming. People that we nomally wouldn't have contact with. We feel that we were able to reverse some of the ill effects that the DNR had over some of these people.
We have targetted the fall and winter months for our advertising. That is when "guys" are in deer mode, and also the same time when people watch the most television. Many TV stations will give better deals during these months, because business is generally fairly slow for advertising.
I have an excellent top of the line video camera. I will gladly donate my time and help any state organization interested in creating a commercial.
I need to clear a little bit of air on this subject. I have been in the preserve business for 13 years. Been suplimenting it with our 3 other businesses, looking at it as an investment for the future. We built a new lodge in 2007, have 1,000 acres fenced and also offer free range hunting to try and bring in more money. I have approx 100 deer in my breeding operation running about 30 does for the last two years and dropped that to 15 this year. We have appox 500 deer in our preserve and feed 13 tons a month of feed. Start your calculator as to how much money that is costing in overhead and operating expenses. My hunt for a 200-210" buck is $12,500. Over the last few years, the breeding farms have been asking for $10,000 for that size deer. We couldn't buy them. This year we have 26 hunts sold - 16 200" deer. I am probably going to avg around $8,000 for those 200" deer, buying them from local farmers in Missouri. I have to pay that up front, before any hunts take place.
Lets get something straight- my hunts are priced to what the market can bear, I just don't have Donald ***** knocking down my door trying to pay me 3X what everyone else gets. Other guys may be better salesman, maybe people just don't want to hunt here or with me.....who knows. I do know that we have 85% rebook.
The point is this- why am I buying a 200" deer for $8,000 when there is a surplus and that is more than what I get out of the hunt? I should be making 50% of the total price of the hunt. Breeders don't have near the investment that I do, I will guarantee that- so why do I have to take the risk and the lower percentage. That is why you see guys not buying is the fact that they can raise them cheaper and don't have to Jew people down on price. I think the breeders should:
1. work with honest preserve owners
2. deliver deer to the preserve with a deposit given to them
3. get paid when the deer is harvested
4. take 50% of the said hunting price
5. hunt a preserve- promoting the industry and learning about where your deer are going so that you can promote them properly - through experience. Just go and shoot a management buck or something. Maybe the guy you are selling shooters to runs a caged hunt that is actually hurting our industry and you are promoting his actions by selling him shooters that will in turn shut you down and leave you out in the street. Duh?!!
This does present a problem. What if the said deer dies in the preserve before harvested? That can be tackled by someone else, I am trying to get some work done.
I would love to buy more shooters, but can't seem to make the numbers work.
Dustin Worrell
EAST FORK RANCH
ALBANY, MO
Lets get something straight- my hunts are priced to what the market can bear, I just don't have Donald ***** knocking down my door trying to pay me 3X what everyone else gets. Other guys may be better salesman, maybe people just don't want to hunt here or with me.....who knows. I do know that we have 85% rebook.
The point is this- why am I buying a 200" deer for $8,000 when there is a surplus and that is more than what I get out of the hunt? I should be making 50% of the total price of the hunt. Breeders don't have near the investment that I do, I will guarantee that- so why do I have to take the risk and the lower percentage. That is why you see guys not buying is the fact that they can raise them cheaper and don't have to Jew people down on price. I think the breeders should:
1. work with honest preserve owners
2. deliver deer to the preserve with a deposit given to them
3. get paid when the deer is harvested
4. take 50% of the said hunting price
5. hunt a preserve- promoting the industry and learning about where your deer are going so that you can promote them properly - through experience. Just go and shoot a management buck or something. Maybe the guy you are selling shooters to runs a caged hunt that is actually hurting our industry and you are promoting his actions by selling him shooters that will in turn shut you down and leave you out in the street. Duh?!!
This does present a problem. What if the said deer dies in the preserve before harvested? That can be tackled by someone else, I am trying to get some work done.
I would love to buy more shooters, but can't seem to make the numbers work.
Dustin Worrell
EAST FORK RANCH
ALBANY, MO
Dustin with all due respect I know you have your problems and i know you have your issues running the hunting preserve I wish you nothing but the best and hope things turn around for you. I do not have a preserve yet however I have many good friends that do and i see and feel their pain with different issues they have to encounter. The deer breeders have their issues as well.........a for instance would be Sudden Imapct and his sudden death.......I would hate to know the marketing dollars they have wrapped up in that animal not knowing he was going to pass away at such a young age........somethings just come with the business you are in and you can't ask someone else to take on the burden with you. Business just doesn't work that way.....now that doesn't mean that we can't all work together and I hate to see us get this VERY IMPORTANT THREAD off track as that is what we are trying to do by promoting the entire industry and the High fenced hunting........this only benefits us all and we need to stay focused on how to get this campaign up and running. We can not let this thread turn into a debate or fight between Deer Breeders and preserve owners.......we are in this together and need to unite and make a success of the entire Industry,,,,,,and the way to do it is by what is being dicussed above!!!! Lets keep on track Please!!!!
Bucks you buy and then die in the preserve is just a bad deal.I don't know the answer to that question.I have had more calls than the last few years but less bookings this year.The guys that are comming are going down in size of there hunts.I just can't go out and buy shooter bucks without the hunters.Lets hope the calls with bookings will pick up as the season goes.
Dustin, you make some great points but I dont want to get off the subject of helping the industry as a whole, not just one group within the industry. You are obviously a preserve owner that operates your entire life with integrity, not just your preserve. Most preserve owners are like you but a few are not, 2 instantly come to mind. When I sell my bucks to a preserve I dont even ask for payment until after the bucks are shot and I deliver those bucks for free. If they die enroute it is my loss. I am very fair to the preserve and in return they are very fair to me. Again, I dont want to get off track here and turn this into a preserve vs breeder discussion. Instead I hope we can stay focused on working together to benefit all of us in the industry. Thanks for your input and I think you would make another great addition to any group that gets this rolling
My point was this- get rid of those without integrity and eliminate the guys that are hunting bucks that have no chance or we will lose our right to raise deer!! I don't know why that is off the subject, aren't we all trying to hold on to what he have and make it better. I don't know why no one has the balls to call a spade a spade. If you keep dishonest people in this business that only care about themselves and shooting those bucks - regardless of the tactics, then we will all lose what we love. That is right on the subject and you guys need to support the industry by getting involved with the preserves that you sell to. Preserves drive the market!!! Help the industry by doing the right thing....
Russ you have some good ideas and I am on board with trying to help out any way I can to better this industry. I want to be sheriff though.
Russ you have some good ideas and I am on board with trying to help out any way I can to better this industry. I want to be sheriff though.
I agree with all on here that something must be done to help preserve out future in this great industry. I unlike most deer farmers do not need the income from my farm to sustain my means of living. However I have invested a quite a bit of money over the past few years in the industry and would eventually like to see some return on it. I love deer, probably more than baseball, and to be able to do something involving deer for the rest of my life after I retire definitely appeals to me. This being said I do not know any answers but being a person who is a public figure, more so than your average deer farmer, I would be more than happy to help in any way I can. I don't know how that would be but am willing to help in any way possible and am open to any suggestions.
Jarrod Washburn
Jarrod Washburn
Dustin, man you and I are on the same page!!!! You can be the sheriff and I will be your cheif deputy. I have typed some posts lately that I deleted without posting because I wasnt sure about having any backing. When you are ready to take on some of the big time crooks in this business just let me know and I will be right beside you throwing out the facts. I cant believe that people wait in line to hand some of these folks checks for ridiculous amounts of money. We gotta talk man, I have been waiting years for someone to stand up and say what you just said. We have the silent majority on our side but we need a few more of them to speak up. Thank you!
Bruce, the idea with the check-off would be that it is not voluntary but mandatory to sell in ANY auction. That is the way it is with cattle, pork and soybeans and that is how it should be for whitetails.
Bruce, the idea with the check-off would be that it is not voluntary but mandatory to sell in ANY auction. That is the way it is with cattle, pork and soybeans and that is how it should be for whitetails.
Dustin,
I missed your point in your first post.....I'm for sure 100% on board with your thoughts.......there is no room in the Industry for the dishonest and the people you point out they only help to drag the industry down!! Bruce I agree with what Don is saying......we can't have it to where it is a choice......it needs to be mandatory as we ALL benefit from the check -off in the long run!
I missed your point in your first post.....I'm for sure 100% on board with your thoughts.......there is no room in the Industry for the dishonest and the people you point out they only help to drag the industry down!! Bruce I agree with what Don is saying......we can't have it to where it is a choice......it needs to be mandatory as we ALL benefit from the check -off in the long run!
Just a thought ! I agree with what is be said here ...But I believe we need to take it a step further....hang with me .... If we promote the Preserves and increase the number of hunters we could conceivably still lose. This is still a supply and demand business... with increased demand comes increased supply ...... The point is , How many breeders are breeding does this fall that probably shouldn't be bred ,that will only increase numbers . Just because there is no viable way of getting rid of these excess does or bucks . Wouldn't it be to our advantage to also increase to meat sales of those excess deer . To be blunt how many breeders are going out behind the barn and shooting there extra deer. What would happen if there was campaign to NOT breed 25 % of your herd.
This is only our 1st year and we already have does we shouldn't breed ,so I assume there are lots of breeders in the same boat.
Just my 2 cents
Thanks,Rich Meech
This is only our 1st year and we already have does we shouldn't breed ,so I assume there are lots of breeders in the same boat.
Just my 2 cents
Thanks,Rich Meech
Say Tim or any other NADeFA board members.... what happened to the campaign we started for all of these above mentioned items before I left??? This was like HIGH on our list of priorities. NADeFA can do this and really should with all of our help - this is a group of individuals who work tirelessly for all of us.
That is awfully kind Jarrod.... and I feel that we, as an industry, would be foolish to turn down such a generous offer.
Dustin- I have yet to have a preserve owner ask me to wait to get paid till the buck was harvested, but would consider that. Like you mention, it all comes down to TRUST!
That is awfully kind Jarrod.... and I feel that we, as an industry, would be foolish to turn down such a generous offer.
Dustin- I have yet to have a preserve owner ask me to wait to get paid till the buck was harvested, but would consider that. Like you mention, it all comes down to TRUST!
Thanks, Don, unfortunately I have a bit of a time controlling my tongue when it comes to things I am so passionate about- deer and good people. I run a family business, that is my everyday job, and that requires me to hire and fire a lot of people. It is tough to find people that care and that are 100% honest. I have learned to latch on to those that have those two qualities. It is a joy to work with some of them and I would give them the shirt off my back. The deer business is the same- some really great people that I have formed friendships that will last a lifetime. I will try to find good pedigrees that I want from honest people and turn my head to great pedigrees from dishonest people. It's just not worth it. That dishonesty will damage our reputation and turn away newcomers that could be our alliances and strengths in the future. We have to educate the public and gain their trust that it is a good thing that we are doing.
We all have hunting as our passion and have so many things in common that we should be able to come up with resolutions to these problems. If you are a hunter- you have to respect the animal that you are hunting and treat them right. No caged hunts, please. I want to hunt high fence because it is a good experience to see monster bucks- even if I don't shoot them. What a great feeling to experience that. We need to convey that feeling of "fair chase high fenced hunts". That will elongate our business and keep people coming back. It only takes one unhappy hunter to ruin it for all.
Don- we'll talk about this further when you get time. Didn't mean to hijack the thread.
We all have hunting as our passion and have so many things in common that we should be able to come up with resolutions to these problems. If you are a hunter- you have to respect the animal that you are hunting and treat them right. No caged hunts, please. I want to hunt high fence because it is a good experience to see monster bucks- even if I don't shoot them. What a great feeling to experience that. We need to convey that feeling of "fair chase high fenced hunts". That will elongate our business and keep people coming back. It only takes one unhappy hunter to ruin it for all.
Don- we'll talk about this further when you get time. Didn't mean to hijack the thread.
Jarrod just send me a nice fat check and I will spend it accordingly promoting "A" preserve....LMFAO.
Also on a side note Congrats on your newly aquired STUD buck Big Guy.
Hook me up brother!
Dusty I'd like to sign up as a Deputy cause we all know the Sheriff always get shot.
Good stuff from keep it coming.
Also on a side note Congrats on your newly aquired STUD buck Big Guy.
Hook me up brother!
Dusty I'd like to sign up as a Deputy cause we all know the Sheriff always get shot.
Good stuff from keep it coming.