People dont care how much you know untill they know how much you care!
Corny, cheesy i know but it fits
Corny, cheesy i know but it fits
Probiotics
- Thread starter rehabgal
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- probiotics
To tell you the truth I didnt hear anybody bad mouthing anybody. All I was saying is that micro encapsulation is not nessicary if you have the right bacteria and enzymes and that in rumen nutrition the bacteria and enzymes have to work in the rumen. The rumen is a fermentation vat.
Jamie
Jamie
I have to agree here. Robbie and Predator have been there for many of us when we had bad situations. They gave us advice and experience completely unrelated to a product for sale. I think the problem here, revive, is your missing the point of these forums. It is for advice, learning, and sharing experience and knowledge, not product pushing. I agree with CircleJ, you might want to rethink your sales strategy, as after reading your posts (on nearly every recent thread, i might add) I won't be ordering.
Joined Apr 2009
558 Posts | 0+
Defiance, MO
Revive said:
Revive, I believe you also mentioned that Micro encapsulated Bacteria was a sales gimmick.
Not only am I a little confused about rumen animals. I'm also confused about the definition of bad mouthing. I know you are new to this forum but their are some pretty cool options. Like being able to tell when someone is posting on a topic. Just like two days ago when you started to respond to my response. I'm just surprised that after two days that's the best you have. Nice!
Robbin you could not said it any better, plus you have help me out alot on our deer. I just watch the post and learn alot when people need help, you do the best to help. And Micro encapsulated Bacteria is the future of probiotice in people, live stock ,dog and cats,horses and deer the list goes on . All probiotic work better then none and you will see the different that for sure . But do you want to have some are do you want to have the best you can get . You only have a few months of growing season , dont miss the boat
I used shock effect this year. I had a total of (5) 2 year olds and here are 3 of them. I can't say for sure what effect it had on my deer, but I will use it again next year. Wouldn't you if you were me?
Good Job 239" @ 2
Maxin Double Drops 225" @ 2
Hydro-Broad Ax 256" @ 2
For more pictures, you can see them on my website at ervinwhitetails.blogspot.com
Good Job 239" @ 2
Maxin Double Drops 225" @ 2
Hydro-Broad Ax 256" @ 2
For more pictures, you can see them on my website at ervinwhitetails.blogspot.com
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Joined May 2009
2,369 Posts | 0+
Chillicothe, Missouri
Robbie, I have used Target and have had "GREAT" results and You have been an excellent source for info and your photo of you careing for the fawns is "SUPER"................BUT.............SHOCK EFFECT is from my state and Paul is my friend and Him getting kissed by a bunch of fawns..........well he needs ALL the help he can get when it comes to "CUTE".............WOW can't believe I used CUTE and Paul all in the same subject! ................SHOCK EFFECT.............Is here to stay and is making a lot of noise and turning a lot of heads......PLUS ......SAVING deerfarmers a LOT OF MONEY!!!!!!!!!!!.............REVIVE...................Robbie and Paul............Well they are a "CLASS" act.......... So .....REVIVE......... get it together......READ YOUR POST...............YOUR FLAT LINEING ON THIS.......................................................................................................................
................SHOCK EFFECT.............Is here to stay and is making a lot of noise and turning a lot of heads......PLUS ......SAVING deerfarmers a LOT OF MONEY!!!!!!!!!!!.............REVIVE...................Robbie and Paul............Well they are a "CLASS" act.......... So .....REVIVE......... get it together......READ YOUR POST...............YOUR FLAT LINEING ON THIS.......................................................................................................................i personally have used shock effect on my deer this year. big results. scouring fawns it helped alot with also. but all this back and forth, when it comes down to it. It is what your feeding them and genetics. without both you can't expect any probiotic to be a miracle cure. from my dealings with paul there isn't any reason i would even try any other product. i definitely would recommend them, and not only for products. they have alot of knowledge of deer.
flyingshamrock said:
And talking with Paul he will be upfront and tell you, You have to Have a good feed. And there probiotic will compliment what nutrition program you have in place.
I use headgear paste for my fawns. Had good results! Have Used target paste when we put deer under to ease stress! When it comes to feed additive ( probiotic) i'll stick with Shock Effects! All great products, great service, and Great deer knowledge.
Joined Apr 2009
558 Posts | 0+
Defiance, MO
Thanks everybody I appreciate the comments. I believe good things happen you when you treat people with respect something that our country is lacking. It starts with our children. We no longer are able to discipline our children in schools, in public and a lot people don't do it at home. Without discipline their is no respect. When you shake a mans hand and give him your word it should be gold. It represents who you are. Life is way to short and some of us waste it worrying to much about making the almighty dollar. American greed will be the end of us. I know I've said all this before but somethings need to be repeated.
Revive,
Still would like to see your product label,and price sheet.Or could you put a link to you web site? All I can find on revive is heath related to people.
Thanks
Still would like to see your product label,and price sheet.Or could you put a link to you web site? All I can find on revive is heath related to people.
Thanks
It does not look like revive wants to get his product out to the general public. Thanks for your time Revive,I would stick with an up front company for my investments.
darton
I was waiting till I got my website up and going. here is my website address. look it up. In ruman nutritrion ( a cow and a deer are both rumenate animals)
you have to feed the rumen. Not all probiotics are the same. There are many different types and strains of bacteria. And for the statement that a large percentage non micro encapsulated live bacteria is killed of by stomach acids is not true in all cases. Depends on many factors. Type and quality of the bacteria, and the acid levels in the rumen. We know for a fact that the bacteria we have is still live in a rumen with a ph of 4 we have proven that, normal ph of a rumen should be about 6.5.
And for the fact that non micro encapsulated bacteria doesnt work in the intestines is not true also in some cases. There again depending on type and quiaty of the bacteria. We know for a fact that the Revive product does in deed work on salm. and ecoli.
Probiotics in the dairy industry have been used for 30 some years. And there are some good ones one the market but they are not micro encap. because in rumen nutrition the bacteria has to work in the rumen, that is where the feed in broken down so that it can be absorbed in the intestines. There are billions of bacteria allready in the rumen and if the stomach acids kill them there should not be any bacteria in the rumen. Know if you put that rumen into acidosis by feeding to much starch which comes from corn you will lower the ph of the rumen and kill of some bacteria. But with proper nutrition and keeping the rumen out of acidoses this wont happen. I have a dairy nutritionist with a masters degree in rumen, a very well known microbiologist, and a very well known dairy vet that are very well known across the country that will back this up. In fact the microbiologist that grows our bacteria is very well known for human grade probiotic and is very well know around the world.
In fact if you want to know if my product works ask some people that are using it. On my website there are some testimonials of some deer farmers that are using my product that are very happy with the product. Eddie Ray Borkholder of Pine Creek Deer Farm, Chris Winsey of Elusive Whitetails, and Ron Allen of Rushcreek Whitetails are the testimonals. Call andtalk to them. Let them tell you what there deer have told them. One thing with animals you have to learn to talk to them, They will never lie to you.
Another thing it is true that some non encap. probiotics start to die off during and while packaged. That is really the many reason for mico encap. But there again it depends on type and quality of bacteria and a couple other things if that bacteria starts to die off.If you look on our labels we guarntee our level and that is at the time of feeding not the time it is packaged. I have alot of deer farmers using my product and they have all told me that they are very pleased with the results and cannot believe the results they are getting. One guy actullly told me he was affraid his does were going to get to fat. But they all said that it diffently put weight on the deer with better digestion and are much healthier.
The Revive products are patient pending and we have also issued for a patient for human use because of the way it works.
My website is www.revivemicrobials.com
Jamie
I was waiting till I got my website up and going. here is my website address. look it up. In ruman nutritrion ( a cow and a deer are both rumenate animals)
you have to feed the rumen. Not all probiotics are the same. There are many different types and strains of bacteria. And for the statement that a large percentage non micro encapsulated live bacteria is killed of by stomach acids is not true in all cases. Depends on many factors. Type and quality of the bacteria, and the acid levels in the rumen. We know for a fact that the bacteria we have is still live in a rumen with a ph of 4 we have proven that, normal ph of a rumen should be about 6.5.
And for the fact that non micro encapsulated bacteria doesnt work in the intestines is not true also in some cases. There again depending on type and quiaty of the bacteria. We know for a fact that the Revive product does in deed work on salm. and ecoli.
Probiotics in the dairy industry have been used for 30 some years. And there are some good ones one the market but they are not micro encap. because in rumen nutrition the bacteria has to work in the rumen, that is where the feed in broken down so that it can be absorbed in the intestines. There are billions of bacteria allready in the rumen and if the stomach acids kill them there should not be any bacteria in the rumen. Know if you put that rumen into acidosis by feeding to much starch which comes from corn you will lower the ph of the rumen and kill of some bacteria. But with proper nutrition and keeping the rumen out of acidoses this wont happen. I have a dairy nutritionist with a masters degree in rumen, a very well known microbiologist, and a very well known dairy vet that are very well known across the country that will back this up. In fact the microbiologist that grows our bacteria is very well known for human grade probiotic and is very well know around the world.
In fact if you want to know if my product works ask some people that are using it. On my website there are some testimonials of some deer farmers that are using my product that are very happy with the product. Eddie Ray Borkholder of Pine Creek Deer Farm, Chris Winsey of Elusive Whitetails, and Ron Allen of Rushcreek Whitetails are the testimonals. Call andtalk to them. Let them tell you what there deer have told them. One thing with animals you have to learn to talk to them, They will never lie to you.
Another thing it is true that some non encap. probiotics start to die off during and while packaged. That is really the many reason for mico encap. But there again it depends on type and quality of bacteria and a couple other things if that bacteria starts to die off.If you look on our labels we guarntee our level and that is at the time of feeding not the time it is packaged. I have alot of deer farmers using my product and they have all told me that they are very pleased with the results and cannot believe the results they are getting. One guy actullly told me he was affraid his does were going to get to fat. But they all said that it diffently put weight on the deer with better digestion and are much healthier.
The Revive products are patient pending and we have also issued for a patient for human use because of the way it works.
My website is www.revivemicrobials.com
Jamie
Thanks for finally responding,I have been doing some reserch and i dont see a differance in your cow product and your deer product.It looks to me that you only have 3 differant strains of bacteria.My question is why would I spend the extra money on your probiotic when i can buy any regular probiotic off the shelf cheaper?
darton, Thanks for your interest in the Revive product. I dont have much time to spend on spend on here because I am on the road alot. I cover a large area and help alot a dairy farmers. So if you would like to know more please give me a call and I can explain it more in detail in person on the phone. My cell # is on the web site and 330-601-2142. I would be glad to talk with you about it.
Jamie
Jamie
In a rumen ecosystem, the concentration of bacteria can reach as much as 1 trillion bacteria per milliliter and protozoa can reach up to 10 million per milliliter. Looking at other products out there, are they using the right bacterial species, in the right concentrations, to allow the rumen to function appropriately? When choosing a species specific probiotic, you should consider this.
The rumen bacteria consist of species that are not found in commercial probiotics. Within the rumen you will find bacteria such as Ruminococcus albus, Ruminococcus flavafaciens, Fibrobacter succinogenes, Butyrivibrio fibrisolvens, Bacteriodes ruminicola, Streptococcus bovis, Anaerovibrio lipolytica, ect.. try to find these in a commercial or multi-species labeled probiotic. You will not because it is too difficult to keep them viable in a suspended application. You will however, find many other bacterial species that are much easier to work with and do exceptionally well in the intestinal tract. Just about the only time commercial probiotics will work on a rumen is when the animal is very young, or stressed. The best thing basic probiotics can do for a rumen is make enzymes to help digest feed. But if that’s all they are doing, why not just add the enzymes? If you are relying on a probiotic that is not encapsulated, it will be much harder for the bacteria to survive for a long time period.
As soon as you open a jar of any probiotic that is not encapsulated…what happens??? IF IT IS NOT MICROENCAPSULATED the bacteria are immediately exposed to oxygen, temperature fluctuations, and ultraviolet light (from sun). ALL of these environmental factors are extremely harmful to non-encapsulated bacteria and start to kill them. When these same, non-encapsulated bacteria enter the rumen, propionic acid, butyric acid, lactic acid and acetic acid all start to kill the bacteria, just as Paul said. The micro-encapsulation protects the bacteria from the harmful rumen acids. When the non-encapsulated bacteria enter into the abomasum (true stomach), the hydrochloric acid kills the bacteria as well. Once again the encapsulation protects the bacteria.
How then, do some products work for deer that are not encapsulated?? Once again, most of the benefits come from the enzymes, but over formulation, or feeding a deer too much probiotic, knowing quite well that much of the probiotic will die, is an easy way to do it, but it is not ideal, or practical, and is quite wasteful. The other way to do this is to use beneficial bacteria that naturally protect themselves from harmful factors. These are call spore forming microorganisms. I’m sure you have heard of anthrax. Anthrax is a toxin produced by the bacteria called Bacillus anthracis. Bacillus anthracis can live for thousands of years in the soil and produce anthrax when conditions are right. The reason it can live is due to its ability to produce a spore and protect itself. There are some probiotics that can do this such as Bacillus subtilis or Bacillus licheniformis. I’m sure you can find these on a commercial probiotic label. But what about the others that cannot protect themselves by producing a spore like , Enterococcus faecium, Lactobacillus acidophilus, Bifidobacterium thermophilum, and many more? Are these probiotics not important? Why would you not protect these?
Micro-encapsulating bacteria assists their survival while traveling through the intestine. If you encapsulate using a particular substrate and with the appropriate encapsulation method (Like C&E/Target Does) you can get certain bacterial species to benefit specific areas of the intestine. For example, if you want acidophilus in the beginning section of the duodenum, and you want enterococcus in the ascending and transverse colon, the two different bacteria species will require different encapsulation methods.
In short, different bacterial species and different strains of bacterial species work in various ways and can be very beneficial for overall health, and help reduce pathogenic bacteria in the intestine. But they must be encapsulated to efficiently work. Non encapsulated bacteria have a very short life span while their function in the intestine can be more limited than encapsulated bacteria simply because they are not living long enough to get the job done right. The advantages of non encapsulated bacteria are cost and enzyme production, and are very popular in dairys, but then again, are we feeding Holstein cattle or top end, genetically superior Whitetail Deer?
(co-written with technical/scientific input from Shane Horrocks, owner of C&E Wildlife Products, formerly Target Probiotics Whitetail)
The rumen bacteria consist of species that are not found in commercial probiotics. Within the rumen you will find bacteria such as Ruminococcus albus, Ruminococcus flavafaciens, Fibrobacter succinogenes, Butyrivibrio fibrisolvens, Bacteriodes ruminicola, Streptococcus bovis, Anaerovibrio lipolytica, ect.. try to find these in a commercial or multi-species labeled probiotic. You will not because it is too difficult to keep them viable in a suspended application. You will however, find many other bacterial species that are much easier to work with and do exceptionally well in the intestinal tract. Just about the only time commercial probiotics will work on a rumen is when the animal is very young, or stressed. The best thing basic probiotics can do for a rumen is make enzymes to help digest feed. But if that’s all they are doing, why not just add the enzymes? If you are relying on a probiotic that is not encapsulated, it will be much harder for the bacteria to survive for a long time period.
As soon as you open a jar of any probiotic that is not encapsulated…what happens??? IF IT IS NOT MICROENCAPSULATED the bacteria are immediately exposed to oxygen, temperature fluctuations, and ultraviolet light (from sun). ALL of these environmental factors are extremely harmful to non-encapsulated bacteria and start to kill them. When these same, non-encapsulated bacteria enter the rumen, propionic acid, butyric acid, lactic acid and acetic acid all start to kill the bacteria, just as Paul said. The micro-encapsulation protects the bacteria from the harmful rumen acids. When the non-encapsulated bacteria enter into the abomasum (true stomach), the hydrochloric acid kills the bacteria as well. Once again the encapsulation protects the bacteria.
How then, do some products work for deer that are not encapsulated?? Once again, most of the benefits come from the enzymes, but over formulation, or feeding a deer too much probiotic, knowing quite well that much of the probiotic will die, is an easy way to do it, but it is not ideal, or practical, and is quite wasteful. The other way to do this is to use beneficial bacteria that naturally protect themselves from harmful factors. These are call spore forming microorganisms. I’m sure you have heard of anthrax. Anthrax is a toxin produced by the bacteria called Bacillus anthracis. Bacillus anthracis can live for thousands of years in the soil and produce anthrax when conditions are right. The reason it can live is due to its ability to produce a spore and protect itself. There are some probiotics that can do this such as Bacillus subtilis or Bacillus licheniformis. I’m sure you can find these on a commercial probiotic label. But what about the others that cannot protect themselves by producing a spore like , Enterococcus faecium, Lactobacillus acidophilus, Bifidobacterium thermophilum, and many more? Are these probiotics not important? Why would you not protect these?
Micro-encapsulating bacteria assists their survival while traveling through the intestine. If you encapsulate using a particular substrate and with the appropriate encapsulation method (Like C&E/Target Does) you can get certain bacterial species to benefit specific areas of the intestine. For example, if you want acidophilus in the beginning section of the duodenum, and you want enterococcus in the ascending and transverse colon, the two different bacteria species will require different encapsulation methods.
In short, different bacterial species and different strains of bacterial species work in various ways and can be very beneficial for overall health, and help reduce pathogenic bacteria in the intestine. But they must be encapsulated to efficiently work. Non encapsulated bacteria have a very short life span while their function in the intestine can be more limited than encapsulated bacteria simply because they are not living long enough to get the job done right. The advantages of non encapsulated bacteria are cost and enzyme production, and are very popular in dairys, but then again, are we feeding Holstein cattle or top end, genetically superior Whitetail Deer?
(co-written with technical/scientific input from Shane Horrocks, owner of C&E Wildlife Products, formerly Target Probiotics Whitetail)