Something Has to Change!

Without the small guys , the big guys don't make it. We all need each other. That is another reason why I love closed borders. With it being flooded up north , you guys are letting the buyer set your prices. That is not right. But good luck to all and I hope that you will prosper.

Ok heres where i sit.I have 2 deer that will never amount to a hill of beans and that is fine with me. I work all over with no time to spare.I read this thing about everyday and hear other people talk.No one has the ba!!s to say what and who the problem is in fear of getting a bad name.First the big guys andnot just russ walk buy these does second hand does that are pretty much a used up breeding and then sell them bred to this big buck that they bought from someone else in the first place.I saw an deer in the first auction of the year from a big name that was 10 yrs old.Im sure that big name guy made his money 3 times over on her and now resells it to someone else.That deer should be burger. But i am not no farmer and not overly smart but the way i see it these big guys got that way from the small guys buying there deer.Mabey its time for the small guy to knock the big guy off the top and even the field.You cant blame them if you have dumb people buying there deer from them that are not worth crap.Stop selling those big bucks you make to a farm that is just gunna turn around and make a bunch of money on your buck.Stop bidding and buying deer from them and that part of the problem will go away. The auction people are not helping this thing by taking all these deer in for resale.they want money and will do what ever it takes to get deer in there.someone said in a post that only dnad deer should be in auction and only one deer per farm and per auction.hello that would work because people could not try to sell some of the old outdated crap to someone else.If they want that line fine but they cant resell it unless some buys it from them. duh this is not a hard fix if people would stand up with ba!!s like randy and call these people out that are messin sh!t up. You all made this crap and it will take us all to fix it.I say us because i am a deer farmer with 2 deer.ha ha

I agree, the bucks are getting uglier. Its sad cause there are lots of nice 300" bucks out there, but when you get into the 400-500 inch you really do loose alot of the look, but that is only my opinion, which is not important. Many claim a buck that grows into the 500" range is nice looking, but $ and pride can twist the mind. In a way i imagine many say they hate 500" bucks because they are a little jealous, but I know many also honestly dont like them. to me,and dont get angry as this is only my opinion, there is not anything special about them, it is just a man made mess, a mess i want no part of. thats why i have chosen to live breed with bucks in the 200-250" range. Maybe i am an ***** and a bad buisnessman for not seeking out bigger racks, heck i will tell you now I dont make any money deer farming, but I will tell you I am in it because i have a deep love of deer. To each his own, but many are purely in this for money only, to watch a buck walk around with its head dragging all summer under the weight of antlers that are too big for his body, then PURPOSELY continue to breed for more just like it, is all about money, not the love of the animal.

I just wish the people that raise 200" deer could do it and make at least enough money to pay the feed bill, but that wont happen, those days are gone and will not return.What i think happens is it makes small guys feel worthless, like they have to AI, or get bred does from something or someone on top of the industry, just to make some money. and thats where the guys on top will always make out.

Unfortunately, we dont have to worry about anyone of the big guys(not naming names, no need to) in this industry coming on here offering an opinion on this thread, they are only in "antlers 2011" thread showing off their bucks and posting contact info. once antlers are done for the year they can leave until next July when it time to show off their next "superbuck." Dont mind the "health and wellness" boards big money boys, thats for us small guys with worthless deer to throw our stupid suggestions around, its hard to show of a big buck in that board! I truley appreciate the small time farmers that have truely help save many of my deer with there suggestions, and phone calls, in the H and W board. YOU are important to me.

Randy said:

After reading all of the posts and recieving many phone calls about all of the frustration in the business, I thought it might be best to start a post so all of you big guys out there can see why we are so MAD!



First off- I have heard alot of people saying that they just cant keep up. With growing horns and with money. All of the top guys are growing 450-550" bucks that, with the exception of X-Factor, are the UGLIEST animals that have ever been grown. I personally hope to never grow a buck that grows so big in half a growing season, and walks around with his head DRAGGING THE GROUND!!!! How is this looking out for our industry? Before when 300" was hard to hit the industry was booming and it wasnt just the big guys benefiting. Now us small guys cant make a penny. You guys are ruining the Deer Farming Industry! The Great Lakes Classic Friday and Saturday had OVER 40 No Sales!!! Pretty soon Indiana is going to lose that auction and that is going to hurt their industry. Its just going to get worse and worse.



Another thing thats hurting us! Russ Walk- I know you have a great thing going with your Financing option. Geart Idea, I really like it! What I dont like, is alot of those does you have listed in the Vendors and Buyers barn right now bred to Energizer, you purchased from other small guys for next to nothing. Then all of a sudden they are on THE WALKS FARM bred to ENERGIZER so now they are worth 4-5 times as much! How is this the right thing to do? And its not just you guys, its MOST of the big guys, thats my point. We arent seeing any of that profit? We are producing the deer!



I also dont like how for $2,000 you can find preserves that will let you shoot a 200" buck. This isnt helping us either.



So these are a couple things I just had to get out. They have been bothering me for a long time. Something has got to change in the business. I know that the big guys do alot for the good of the industry, but they are also hurting it. So lets hear everyones thoughts and concerns, Big and Small Guys!

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I normally would just over look negative posts and find a positive way to use my efforts but thought since my name was singled out maybe I should respond. Randy, I hope the best for you and your deer program and hope for you that someday you will grow that giant 450+ deer you don't really want. If you have any suggestions on how I should or should not operate my program please feel free to give my personal cell a call 814-330-6861.



The Does you are referring to that were bought for next to nothing that are being resold for 3,000 ($125 per month) bred to Energizer and backed up to bucks such as King Kong, Fear Factor, Rolls Royce and Maxbo Express. I have the perfect plan for you to consider so that you might also reap in this great profit. Just spend over 1,000,000 buying bucks as I have. Buy yourself some Energizer semen at 5,000-10,000 (which he is very cheap at) and you will be in the same position to purchase does for 1,000-1,500 and resell them bred to your bucks and your semen investments for 3,000. In 2 years when this buyer you have financed this purchase to has paid his final payment you will have made a big, very unfair, advantage taking profit on your investment? Please don't take this personal but what I have broke down above is how us big guys make a small profit and offer a great value at the same time. What should I sell these does for? Energizer fawns will be worth good moneys this spring right? How can the buyer go wrong? He has 9 of his 24 months payments or $1,125 invested by May when his new Energizer babies are born. What could he re-sell these fawns for? Is there any room for this "little guy" to make a great profit on his horrible investment with this "big guy" that's ruining the chances for him "the little guy" to make any money in the deer business?



To be fare to Dustin Miller the guy I bought a few of the does that are being offered on my 54 doe list, I personally believe these does will produce outstanding for the buyers who get them. Dustin what have you got out of these does on your farm? The rest of the does on the list were purchased at sales such as the Top 30, Midwest Select, Chupp Premier, ect or raised on my farm from our genetics.



The only reason I am selling 15 bred does is to help raise some of the cash needed to expand our hunting ranch with another 600 acres beside us and I am selling these doe's financed exactly to help "the little guy".

My family has bought almost 200 shooter bucks this fall most of them over 200 from many farms across the country and we are expanding that effort even more now with this expansion of our ranch. From what we have been told from the farms we have bought from is we are paying as much or more then every other ranch in the country. I absolutely agree with you that these ranches selling hunts dirt cheap is very difficult to compete with and is hurting the industry. As a result we must up our game and offer a better experience at a charge that is higher in price in order to continue to purchase all these bucks at the top of the scale on shooter prices. We have contributed as a deer farm more then we have taken. Every time we are called upon by state organizations or NADEFA we are generous and help. Crazy thing is I bet you will be the "little guy" calling us to try and sell your shooter bucks in the near future.



Look, I love this business and am very proud to be a deer farmer. Yes, one of my flaws would be I am very passionate and sometimes come across as to visual in how we offer sales and deals on line or at auctions or off the farm. If I have offended you or anybody else I apologize and will try to do better as a "big guy" (by the way I'm actually more of a normal kinda guy).

I do agree with Russ and don,t blame him for his response as he was singled out and should not have been. I have never met you Russ but do hear a lot f good things. Yes there are a lot of smaller farmers that are struggling. But we should not be coming down on the more successful farmers (and I was wrong with some of the things I said above too) because of our frustration. Nothing comes without hard work. We are also in very hard times right now with our country and economy. Tempers are going to flare.......I love the deer business and plan on doing everything I can to make it work..........I have to much invested not to try. I hope it works out for all of us.......one way or another...God Bless!

I dont think one farm can be pointed out as the problem with what is going on now.Russ you and some of the other guys sell these second class does or mabey the outdated does bred to one of these bucks for a certin price because she is bred to that buck.Well that does not change much of the value of such deer because now the fawns have an outdated bottom or a bottom that was not producing in the first place.Alot of these bigger bucks are being grown with other means than by just good feed..Its a fact..That alone is taking this industry in the wrong direction.If they were raised on food and genitics they would not look like they do.There are farms out there that sell thousands of dollars worth of deer or semen and then dont give them the time of day.Then you have deals that say oh she will be bred to this such and such big buck only to not get a straw at all and just get thrown in the backup pen.There has been a few of the so called big guys that have bid the animals up for each other for so long we now have a false price on what that deer is really worth...And we all know who those farms are.. I said it before and i will say it again this has to be fixed at all levels.First we need to stop buying from or supporting the ones that are taking this industry down,Second only dnad animals get into auctions so there worth will be shown without a shadow of a doubt,Thrid only one deer per farm per auctions.If someone wants to buy a deer thats not dnad then they go to the farm and buy it.This way we wont have sales like this weekend that are a total bust.The first 80 lots had 36 no sales...why..overinflated price on the deer in the first place and now over inflated worth of the off spring in the farmers mind.This has been goin on ever since there was the split of so called big farms that earned there spot in this industry.Granted they did earn respect but they did not earn the right to use their name and their fame to get together with other big guys and just totally take advantage of new farmers coming in.This crap will end sooner than latter if us small guys that are left stop supporting the guys that are giving the black eye to this industry and the auction sevices do their part by not just taking all the big names over the little even thought the bloodlines are the same exact thing..Thats just bull..Less does for sale = less bucks for sale=More for your stockers.If you have does that are only good for ranches then get them there and not to some new guy that mabey didnt do his homework just to sell a deer.This is still a great animal to raise and there still is value in the end product its just going to take us new farmers to come to their senses and stop bidding on the deer from those farms and quit selling your big breeders if you raise one to other farms so they dont use them for an agenda that probably wont help the deer industry at all.If you raise them you market them and that would be a step in right direction.It will work if we want it to like someone said we made the ones big that are mabey not thinking about the industry as a whole and we can make them small again.I heard someone say that they wished we had closed borders on all states so the states could fight on their own....Mabey not a bad idea after all!!!! Bottom line is its a small deer family and if a statement is made or names brought up over and over again there must be a reason

I just wanted people to see a few yearlings and 2 yearold brothers and sons to those "shooter" does Russ has been selling. They aren't 300" monsters but they're all nice typicals who should clear into the 200" range plus by 3 years. Maybe it's my fault for not advertising enough and pushing my genetics but I firmly believe that whoever buys those does can easily make good profit from them just as I did with their mothers and grandmother for years. There's more to come don't worry, but I'm just trying to choose my words wisely here. For now enjoy some pictures.

Closing the borders works for me!!

I am sure that the whitetail industry is similar to other industries. There are large players as there are small and small ones need to come up with strategies to compete with larger players who may have a better chance of success. Smaller farms need to come up with other added value services to differentiate themselves and get a part of a limited market.



That being said, people should not criticize someone they dont know. There are some prior posts where someone says they dont know Russ but still talk bad about him or others in his same "big" players status. I have dealt with Russ and would gladly buy from him again. He stands behing his word and warrantees and is not only a great breeder but a good decent person. In addition to that, breeders like Russ are the ones that may allow a small farm to get a chance at producing a big buck and put their name on the map.



I am sure there are many more that stand behind him than against him.

Matt i think you are missing the point dustin is trying to get across.He is showing that the deer russ bought off him are not junk.Mabey an older line but still a viable doe that if bred with a good deer will still produce shooter quailty deer at 3yr old.I dont want anyone to think that the deer that russ is selling is junk.Some were bought and some have been producing on the walk farm for years.The point is that some of these deer being sold and not just by russ are shooter quailty does.Meaning they should be bred,priced and bought as does that will go in a preserve and make shooter bucks for the new owner.On the other hand they should not be sold by russ or anybody for that matter to a new farmer coming into the buisness thinking the are going into the deer breeding buisness.There is a big difference between a proven breeder making doe than a doe that will make 200in deer at 3 years old. Then that new farmer thinks he can put a fawn from that breeding into auction and sell for half of what they paid for the doe.Its not russ's fault people dont do their homework when they bid on his deer or anyone elses deer for that matter.We can point fingers now but whatever damadge thats done is done and only we can get out it.Stop buyin,go through your inventory and dispose of the non producing deer to preserves or the scent market and cut our losses or keep feeding deer that will never have a resale value either off the farm or at auctions!!

NCWHITETAILS said:

So Russ bought those does from you as "shooters" and is selling them as breeding does?

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Ignorant statements like that are what drives me totally insane when it comes to these politics. If my "meat does" (is that better) can produce bucks like that out of my "shooter bucks" imagine what these does can produce from Russ' super sires. I have about the smallest budget of anyone on here, yet you've never seen me drop one complaint about the industry or about selling my animals. It's been over 5 years since we took money from our pocket to feed our deer let alone buy an animal. Lets get real here folks, just because we own a deer doesn't make us a breeder. Just because we sell our deer, doesn't make it a business. If we spent more time focusing on our business plan and genetic crosses then worrying about what the flavor of the week is there would be a lot more profit to be made for everyone. If anyone would be upset with Jr right now, don't you think it would be me? True he got a good price for the does he bought from me, but what I got in return helped my program blossom. I know everyone of you out there would have done the same exact thing I did given the opportunity. He got the know my program and what it's been producing and you know what, he called me to buy those deer, I didn't call him. All I'm saying is that breeding is a science and a learning process. I've been lucky enough to have been around whitetails since I was 6 years old and I've learned alot in the past 2 decades that's helped us build the program we have today. Just be patient and do your homework on what you should be buying and what you should be sending to the butcher, preserve or other farmers. I've had people question my pricing and my pedigrees over the years but bottom line is no one complains once they see what my does produce for them, I have done my homework.



There are people in this industry who need to be singled out for their actions, but it's not the people your aiming at right here. Think about it a minute... Deer farming is supposed to be fun, if you come into it just for profit then you're no better then the people who've taken away the innocence of our industry and turned us all against each other. This would be a good time for people to look back at the hot debate we had going on last year on this same subject. Lets stop trying to turn the diner waitresses into princesses and accept we've ALL made bad buying decisions in the last few years, count our losses and just move on, taking what you've learned and putting it to good use tomorrow. Complaining doesn't bring your money back.



I'll leave you with this... don't buy deer because of the names you see on a piece of paper. Don't buy deer because of who's selling it. Buy deer because you love doing it and if your goal is to make a profit, then buy deer that have a proven track record time and time again. We can all afford to be picky with the excess of animals on the market right now. Have fun and be an educated buyer: no matter how hot that waitresses is, don't pick her up!!!

Hey Mike post a picture of those bucks you got from my shooter does, lol... just so everyone knows it's not just Russ and I benefiting from Birch Creek genetics.

I, generally, try to keep out of personal attacks and the such on here. Seeing that I'm just about as "small" a guy as possible in the deer industry, I figured I’d speak from the “small guy” point of view . . . First, some background . . . we own one deer from pretty solid genetics. She lives on a farm that we don't own (because we're so "small", we don't even have a farm). 100% of the future profits from our deer and her offspring are going to be used to help fund the non-profit organization my wife and I founded (www.playbyfaith.com, if you're interested). With it established that we, indeed, are a "small guy" in the deer farming world, please let me say a few words about my friend, Russ Walk Jr. Forget the deer industry for a second and take a look at the man. He is a man that loves God and loves his family. Speaking of his family, one year ago at this time he and his wife made a decision to adopt two beautiful young girls from Ukraine . . . two beautiful young girls that were facing a life of hopelessness. Now, those same two girls live in a loving home with 4 siblings and a mom and dad. Here is a man that, in the midst of bottle feeding fawns (and all that fawning season entails for a farmer that has as many deer as the Walks do), takes two weeks out of his BUSY schedule to come and impart his outdoors wisdom to a group of young boys and girls at Outdoorsman Camps. Russ, also, at no benefit to himself, has spent countless amounts of time speaking with me on the phone (and in person) pouring his deer industry wisdom into me, a “small guy” and giving me priceless advice. I don’t know if you have ever tried to call Russ or talk to him in person, but I bet you would find out that he’d be willing to share with you many of the things that you learn on these forums. The reason I bring all this up is because Russ is a man of integrity. Whether you did it intentionally or not, you questioned his integrity. I believe Dustin’s words are answer enough to those questions you raised. My wife and I are blessed to name Russ Walk Jr. as our friend. If you knew him (maybe you do), you’d be blessed as well. This isn’t meant to be a Love Fest about Russ, it’s just meant to speak truth.

I dont think this is a post just aimed at russ by all.Mabey randy on the first post(and only post on deer farmer) can come back on and explain his words.Life and buisness sometimes are not played with the same deck of cards.Russ gets the heat alot because he is the only(big guy) that gets on these fourms year round.Take a look at antler bar and lounge and look at the other players that only get on 3 months of the year to show and sell their goods of the year and then you hear no more from them.One man didnt get us where we are.There is a handful that have contributed to this over inflation and its to late for the past but alot of time for the future.Dont bid on their animals from auctions that are supporting this stuff and this will stop.We all(myself included)Have to look at our inventory and make a realistic value of their worth(even though you paid more than they are worth) If you dont have a doe thats making breeder quailty bucks then you have a shooter quailty doe and if you try to put one in auction you have to put a value and price on it that will sell to preserves and get those does out of production where they belong and not to a new farmer.We can fix this mess we got ourselves into and still have a viable product to offer if we just stop supporting the companies and the farmers that are not looking out for the industry in a whole and they will see that what shafty stuff that has been going on in the past will no longer work.We can send those few out to pasture if they cant sell animals!!!

This will be my last post on this thread because I do not feel these types of threads are at ALL productive! I let my frustrations speak for ke on my first post on here and for that reason I deleted my post......I will always be man enough to admit when I am wrong. I had a close call 8 weeks ago with death and it is only by the grace of God that I am still here to even be typing this post. The reason I mention this is it definitely put life into perspective for me and showed me what was most important in life. Not the best way to have to learn a lesson but a lesson learned none the less. It is disturbing to me when I see a persons character questioned on these forums......( I did it in the past on these forums myself and wish I could take it back). I personally apologized to the person that I did it to and can only hope that he has forgiven me. Anyhow, as I have stated before nothing comes without hard work.......this is with any business.........yes there are some in this business that don't do business as they should......we should actually feel sorry for them and pray that they will change their

practices.........I am struggling right now in the deer business just as a lot of others are......but

I have no one to blame but myself......I need to focus on marketing my animals instead of

thinking whoa is me! The most important thing is I need to seek Gods blessings on my farm

and make sure I run it in a manner that he wants me to run it. With this said, I know he will bless me and the farm! But blaming others for my lack of success is not the answer........are there things that need to change in this industry? Sure there are.....but there always will be and sitting around whining about it is not going to solve anything! Another thing I learned from my accident is just how rich of a guy I am..........I have God who loves me, my awesome family, a beautiful son the Lord has blessed me with, wonderful friends and deer that I love to raise! I couldnt be more grateful.....I truly am a blessed man........Dont wait around for a accident to happen to you before you discover the important things in life......some people don't get a second chance........enjoy the blessings you already have....include God in all that you do and he will continue to bless you in ways you could have never imagined! sorry for preaching but it is the TRUTH! God Bless!!!

Nicely said DD!! Glad to see you up and running (maybe not running).



My first thoughts were to keep my dog out of this fight but it angered me! I very much enjoy coming on here and looking at all the bucks so keep them coming and nevermind the idiots who are complaining some of you only come on here this time of year. The site gets more traffic this time of year then at any other point.



As in our society today everyone wants to play "victim" and expect other to do for you. Do it youself and quit blaming everyone else!!!!!!! Dustin did a smart sell his deer to someone else-he breeds them and sells them for more. Because Dustin chooses not to advertise himself he now get that promotion thru someone else and at some point that will pay off dividends for him. I am sure there are many so called "small guys" tickled pink that the so called "big guys" buy deer from them and pay them handsomely on some. The question to be ask is it jealousy that drives this train? We are all at different levels in this industry. Except it, change it or get out but quit complaining/blaming. I have adjusted my program as I see the market change as well the demands. Not everyone will succeed but you can find a place in the industry if you look hard enough and work hard enough.



The auctions simply take deer that will sell and probably do many a favor by not excepting animals that will no sale. So you should thank them instead of blame them.



As far the look of deer I myself like the BIG cant hardly hold them up as well as the big typicals. So keep them coming!



Just my 2cents from a "small guy"

Thanks, Dennis, for some perspective and very wise words!

Dustins Statement



“There are people in this industry who need to be singled out for their actions, but it's not the people your aiming at right here. Think about it a minute... Deer farming is supposed to be fun, if you come into it just for profit then you're no better then the people who've taken away the innocence of our industry and turned us all against each other. This would be a good time for people to look back at the hot debate we had going on last year on this same subject. Lets stop trying to turn the diner waitresses into princesses and accept we've ALL made bad buying decisions in the last few years, count our losses and just move on, taking what you've learned and putting it to good use tomorrow. Complaining doesn't bring your money back.”



He couldn’t have said it better in my opinion. This market has changed and is continuing to change very quickly. Trying to blame Russ Walk Jr for things may have gone wrong in our industry is absurd. First we have to consider the source, Randy gets on here and this is his first post he has ever made. He hasn’t yet taken the time to make a positive post in all his years of deer farming?



I cannot believe that someone is getting berated for buying open does, getting fawns from them one year (or not), then breeding them to one of the top sires in the industry and potentially making a profit. What is wrong with that? He is adding value by breeding them to some of the better bucks in the industry that he has either made or bought for a lot of money. He has invested hundreds of thousands of dollars into the bucks on his farm. He bought several of these bucks from people like you and me. He has a sizeable investment in these deer, why shouldn’t he expect or at least hope to make a profit when selling does. He travels to the auctions, buys booth space, advertises etc to promote these top bucks further adding value to the offspring they will produce. Every experience I have had with him he stands behind what he sells 100%. This adds value. He doesn’t sell deer because his name is Russ Walk Jr, he sells deer because he adds a lot of value in the sense of what you are getting and how you are treated after the sale.



I am proud to say that I am friends with the entire Walk family. They are great people and some of the most honest people I have done business with. I personally would not hesitate to buy a doe from them or any other producer even if it was purchased from another farm. The value that is added by breeding to one of their sires surpasses any concern (that I don’t have) of the origin of the doe. When value is added to an animal the price should go up.



Just my opinion.

Thanks for your explanation dustin. I just didnt know what "shooter does" meant in your first post. I am with everyone else in the fact that Russ shouldnt be blamed for adding value to those doe. I love deer farming and I will never not have deer. Im Hooked! This is the greatest business in the world! I do think a few changes could be made but every business is like that!



Matt Anthony