Something Has to Change!

If I am a preserve owner, (and I'm not) and buying shooter bucks I still would want ones with the best possible genetics for the money, and yes I do still want to know the pedigree. If I didn't end up shooting that buck that year he darn well better get bigger and bring more money the next year because I'm taking the risk that I may loose him and others and I still have to pay to feed him as well as the interest on my investment on buying him. Anyone who raises any livestock and raises more then a few pet deer knows you will have death loss and it costs $$$. I'm fairly new to deer farming but have raised other livestock for 40 years and outfitted low fence deer hunts for 15 years, I have watched every deer sale and studied different breedings and genetic lines for several years before I ever bought my first deer. It was up to me to figure out what genetics I thought actually produced the best bucks at an earlier age for the least amount of money invested(return on investment). As for the reason these so called "big Guys" raise and buy bigger genetics is pretty simple, bigger deer at a younger age means more demand and profit and if you want to have a successful BUISINESS instead of a hobby farm that's what you have to do to keep up with what people want. Just because you breed to a 500 inch so called "ugly to some, breathtaking to others" deer doesn't mean your going to raise 500 inch deer. Look at Sudden Explosion, one of the prettiest bucks out there this year(to ME) out of one of the most gnarly non-typical's ever, which I also think is an incredible animal. That's the exciting part of raising deer is seeing what different breedings produce. As for the "guys" who think a 500 inch deer is ugly, it obviously isn't that ugly to others who are paying 3-10k for a straw instead of $100. Maybe they would see the beauty in a 300-500 inch deer if it was owned by them and they were getting a good price for it's semen or sell the buck for a bunch of money to a guy like Russ Walk who is willing to take the gamble on marketing it and keeping it alive. Keep breeding 200" onto 200" and guess what your probably going to top out at and then wonder why nobody wants to buy your deer. Raising shooter bucks doesn't mean raising small deer, alot of people who hunt preserves want to shoot big deer and are willing to pay alot of $$ to do it ut it must be a good experience, not just walk out and shoot one. Even breeding for the biggest and the best your still going to end up with some shooters. Promoted breeder deer sell usually higher because they are marketed and that is usually why people invest in that particular animal, they know it will be marketed and promoted in the future meaning the value of that deers offspring should bring more then one that has never been marketed, pretty simple buisiness planning and that is why you see the same genetic lines bring more money being sold by different people. I think higher priced semen on a promoted buck is usually put into someones best proven does and this is also why you see more bigger offspring come out of that bucks breedings as apposed to breeding with a twin brother who has the same ped. but was never pushed. I don't know Russ Walk and have never talked to him but I do have a few deer that go back to his farm because I've seen what they can produce and know he has years of experience. Getting to be one of the so called big guys takes alot of work, time, experience, investment, marketing, promoting and a little luck that just doesn't happen overnight and for that I respect them. To be successful in any buisiness, it takes promotion and marketing and it's usually expensive, the so called big guys invest in it and for that reason people buy there deer. Why would someone buy a deer from a so called small guy if he doesn't market his animals and let other people know what he has. The guys who don't want to invest the money in genetics, marketing will continue raising deer for less money. If thats what you want to do and don't care about selling your deer, keep doing what isn't working for you. In the end it all has to cash flow and if thats not what its about to you and just the love of the deer then don't complain about not making any money at it. Like anything else in this world, your going to get out of it what you put into it. Another thing, if all the preserves are getting rich with no work then all you have to do is go to the bank and borrow a few million dollars and build your own preserve and then you"ll get rich too, sounds simple enough. Antlers 2011 isn't bragging, it's PROMOTING, almost everyone who has a great looking buck or bucks that they have posted said they have gotten calls from people interested in semen. I for one wouldn't want to buy a deer or semen from someone who does nothing but complains about the industry, but I would buy semen from someone who has taken the time and posted pics of there bucks and is excited about there buisiness, just think about it. If I fail or succeed at deer farming it's MY own fault, I can't blame someone else for making money at it and not me. As far as the preserves selling 200" deer for $2,000, What's the names, just curious?? If it's profitable for them to sell hunts for that they'll stay in buisiness, if it's not it will probably go out of buisiness, just like anything else. So far I haven't made a penny on these deer, spent plenty, but it's still the best part of my day when I walk out into that pen. Good luck to all.

Nicely said Todd and sdbigbucks



Dint know who Randy is but I believe Four Seasons and a few others were throwing those darts as well.



This is not a get rich quick scheme for those who havent figured that out yet.



For the record I dint think anyone should be scrutinized because they don't regularly post on here. I know I've stayed away from posting because of all the controversy associated but I still read it regularly as do so many others especially this time of year. First time post finger pointing does not work either.



Now would everyone just have a wonderful day!!

Shasta you can say someone is throwing darts all you want but unless you really know what is going on in this deer world you might want to get out more and go to some auctions and watch some of these players at their best. If you dont think guys are bidding on each others deer to raise the price you are sadly mistaken.If you dont think there are auction companies that play favorites with x number of farms you are sadly mistaken. Let me ask you if there are 80 animals in an auction the first day and 36 are no sales..why do you think that is....That is because alot of these deer were sold at an over inflated price and now alot of these new guys have ofspring from these deer that they think are worth alot more than they are so they have a high reserve on them..hence alot of no sales.This is not a perfect industry to be in but how many are but if you for one second think there are not some out there that do not give a rats butt about you after they make a sale you really have not seen the big picture!!!

As far as throwing darts at russ that is far from the truth.I bought my first deer from him and it was just what he said she was as far as breeding goes.He texts me at times and i text him back and just as i said russ kinda takes the heat for alot of the crap that goes on because it seems he is the only so big guy that gets on these fourms and speaks besides just to show his wares.That shows he is here for everyone before and after the sale and even if there was not a sale.I cant say that about some others. I myself dont care who buys from who all i know is who i wont buy from again because of what has been done to me..And no russ is not one of them..but thats besides the point.Eveyone can only do the best they can but if i am the only one that thinks the big problem right now is not over inflated deer prices then i sure would like someone to clue me in!!!

Unfortunately Fourseasons I do believe one cannot rationally speak with you but I will try. Again you throw darts all over the place accusing everyone of everything..no..no I stand to be corrected not everyone. You have had some good dealings and are happy, I'm guessing here! Then stick with those that you feel good about and not worry about the others who you claim doing terrible things. For those that are doing "bad things" dont you think they will be figured out by others?! Fourseasons it does nobody any good specifically yourself by making these unstantiated remarks. Is some true? yes/maybe/who knows. Its best to let it go and do your business the way you see fit. To each there own!



Fourseasons read what dd and sdbigbucks wrote I think an outstanding message for all of us.

Very well done guys ---your words made me think a little deeper!



I wish you all a inspirational day!

While this is an intresting thread. It doesn't address the real problem. Deer farming and the economy were in a bull market for so long anything and everything went. Now we are in a bear market and everything is going to be stressed and the market isn't going to tolerate any funny stuff. Only the best stuff at the lowest price will sell and at the same time all associated costs are going to soar.

Good luck to us all!

shasta are you jokin us or what.You get on here and try to downgrade a guys opinion that has been on here helping people for years with your petty *** crap.Why do you think he has like 40 friends on this site its because he is here to help people when needed when he can.we all know there is all kinds of dirty being done by some of the big guys and thats just a fact.I see that you have not put a post on here since jan and when you did you were slamin people back then.I also see that you like to talk with some of the so called big guys in the deer industry.hmm that is kind of funny dont you think.just mabey you dont want any change in this because you might be part of the problem and dont want anybody to find a solution to help this industry stop going backwards.Why dont you sign your name or your farm name on the bottom of your posts so we can see who and where you are.You say look at dd posts well i saw his first post before he deleated it and he was pissed.Then he had second thoughts when someone called him on what he said.He has had some personal problems and im glad he made it through them but that did not change his mind as he knows there is a problem.dustin said there is a problem but it was not russ walk.so many know there is a problem and one guy has the kahonas to get on here and try to help the situation and sign his name at the bottom of the page so all knows where its coming from.If more people backed four seasons instead of sticking there head in the sand and just let this keep slipping away we would all be in a better place.I for one comend him for trying to help and thank him for the jam he got me out of when one of my deer were sick.

Deerfarmer2011

I would call you by your name but you have no signature at the end of your post either. Look .......first off I did have a post on here earlier and I did not take it off because I was called on anything.......I'm am certainly not afraid to stand up for what I believe in......and my last post that I put up on here IS WHAT I BELIEVE IN! The first post of mine was pure frustration and feeling sorry for myself.........like I said......are their farmers out their that do shady business YES........does it do any good to cry and moan about it on these forums NO.........If you know who the farmers are that are not trust worthy....DONT DO BUSINESS WITH THEM! Again, the last post that I wrote on this thread is truly what I believe in..........I want to fix my problems I will address my issues with God and then work hard to turn things around......nothing comes easy.......but what I do know for certain is when I have God involved everything always ends up where it is supposed to be....its when I forget to include him is when everything starts to fall apart......please no one else try and speak for me on this thread....my feelings are what they are and I have given my opinion and it is what it is like it or not!

I kinda read shasta post that its not doing anyone any good by making those statements about anyone whether names are used or not. We all get frustrated understandable but if you want to alienated folks that is the way to do it.

We all answer to the same person in the end!

Derrfarmer2011 I don't recall blasting anyone...if I did I apologize!!!! My eyes and mind are wide open open. I guess I will just go crawl back in my hole and not post anymore but I will come on to look at all the bucks!!!!!! Keep them coming boys!!!!!

Well I was trying to just read this thread and not comment on the subject..............But first things first. I better stand up for MY friend here as some are wishing to kill the messenger. Mike and Angie up at Four Seasons Whitetails are stand up people and are willing to help ANYONE who ask them to.................PERIOD! Just look at the New York Deer Farmers they need help and asked Mike and Angie for help and the didn't HESITATE to help out.............MANY MANY OTHER PEOPLE WHO GET ON THIS WEB SITE SHOULD TAKE THIER LEAD AND ........................STEP UP OR SHUT UP!

And on the subject of this industry having some corrupt and low life people in it ...............Well it's TRUE and those of you WHO thinks they don't exist............Probably think the tooth fairy and the easter bunny are coming!

And while we are on the subject......................You don't ALWAYS have to throw ..................THE "RELIGION CARD" out there every time someone feels threatened or wants to throw a wet blanket on a tabboo subject on here OR in life! I have a theory on that!( Hard to believe...I know but) It's kinda like someone having a *****!........ WE KNOW YOU HAVE ONE.....................BUT WE DON'T WANT TO SEE IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Its called over exposier and we don't need to see it or always hear about it!

AND on another thread I tried to address the NEW Deerfarmer issues and many of these subjects were addressed there and the pitfalls that new farmers should AVOID and again New farmers who CHOOSE to be should ALWAYS:

1. Visit

2.Talk to

3. Visit

4.Talk to

5.RE-Think what you have learned by Visiting Farms and Talking To ......DEERFARMERS

6.GO TO AN AUCTION

7.EDUCATE youself on: WHAT YOU LIKE......BUT......WHAT.....That LINE OF DEER PRODUCES! And HOW to try and put a PEDIGREE TOGETHER TO DO THAT!

And for the "somebody bought my deer and is going to make MONEY off it" subject....................HELLO..........THAT'S WHAT YOU ARE SUPPOSED TO DO!

If someone can't buy deer from someone and increase it's "VALUE" by ENHANCEING the pedigree with thier "PROVEN" genetics on it and BUILDING AN EVEN......"STRONGER" pedigree! ..........well then WE all need to quit.......BECAUSE WE ........ALL........ TRY TO DO IT EVERYDAY!

Well I know I should have kept that all to my self...........But......SOMETIMES being "POLITICLY CORRECT" is for folks who aren't smart enough to have an opinion!



I will say it again...." the view from the back........NEVER changes if you don't have the vision to change it!........LEAD..........FOLLOW.........OR......Just get out of the way"!

Mr scott I know I said I wouldn't post anymore but I'm confused. I never questioned the folks commitment. I simply commented on his grumblings. I didn't disagree with things that may be happening but their are many good guys who unfairly get labeled with bad ones. I agree with much of what you said...well said by the way! I only hope nobody thinks it was a personal attack but if I was one of the successful guys out ther. I would be very discussed with the remarks said or maybe they would never even know because they choose not follow the drama.



To each their own.

Shasta, I certainly didn't think ANYONE was attacking anyone. Simply trying to get off thier chest what many feel need to be said!

I don't think it's a matter of the successful choosing not to follow the "drama" it's more of a matter of them choosing NOT to stir the water they bathe in! Because they know who spends the money for thier glass houses and well for the lack of better wording.....You can put a turd in a pretty package and tell us all it's the next great thing and that you need it to be succsessful...............But when the wraper wears thin you have no choice than to realize the fact that ..............you bought a turd!

Best of luck to all!





Oh! one more thing ............ALL you folks who get on here and sell,promote or just throw your opion out there................PUT YOU NAME ON YOUR POST! If you write it and you believe in what you said and aren't worried about what you said.... sign your post! It's eay to cast stones from a faceless post!



Again Best of Luck to ALL!

Shasta thats just it if they are good guys they should not and will get labeled as bad guys.The ones that have taken part in alot of this mess im sure read these words but will never make a comment.I think its kinda funny how one guy can start a post and then not come back on and defend his words.If you think my words are just grumblings then that is your choice and i will accept that.No names have been spoken on this post as not to take anyone down at this time.Russ got the short end of the stick because he just happened to be the one the other guy called out.He defended him self very well and mabey some of my words were mistaken as a shot at him.We have been in touch and he knows that was not the case.I dont know how many deer you have or where you are but i guess you are one of the lucky ones that have not been stepped on or shafted in any way by anyone in the deer industry and i guess thats kudos to you but there are many out there that have and i can be honest in one thing if every person on this site spoke out with the names and the way they were shafted by someone in the deer industry our computers would blow up.There is alot of malice that goes on in this industry and hopefully one by one they will get no more support from buyers and then we will see a change for the better...Sorry about all the grumblings!!!!!!!!!!!!

ddwhitetails said:

Deerfarmer2011

I would call you by your name but you have no signature at the end of your post either. Look .......first off I did have a post on here earlier and I did not take it off because I was called on anything.......I'm am certainly not afraid to stand up for what I believe in......and my last post that I put up on here IS WHAT I BELIEVE IN! The first post of mine was pure frustration and feeling sorry for myself.........like I said......are their farmers out their that do shady business YES........does it do any good to cry and moan about it on these forums NO.........If you know who the farmers are that are not trust worthy....DONT DO BUSINESS WITH THEM! Again, the last post that I wrote on this thread is truly what I believe in..........I want to fix my problems I will address my issues with God and then work hard to turn things around......nothing comes easy.......but what I do know for certain is when I have God involved everything always ends up where it is supposed to be....its when I forget to include him is when everything starts to fall apart......please no one else try and speak for me on this thread....my feelings are what they are and I have given my opinion and it is what it is like it or not!

Click to expand...

Dennis - I know you asked no one to speak for you, so I hope you don't feel I am. Although there has been alot of truth spoke on this forum, your words Dennis of ''but what I know for certain is when I have God involved everything always ends up where it is suppose to be...its when I forget to include Him is when everything starts to fall apart'' are some awesome words of wisdom that I hope penetrated the hearts of all those that read them. If your words have offended some, do not be taken back by it. Jesus offended many with truth. I appreciate you Dennis, but more importantly, Father God does!!!

Bottom line here guys is that 100 years from now all these big deer, small deer, big money, no money, good business, bad business, is not going to matter ONE IOTA to you!!! The ONLY thing that is going to matter some day is ''Do you know Jesus''!!! Praying for each and every one of you...in His name!

And while we are on the subject......................You don't ALWAYS have to throw ..................THE "RELIGION CARD" out there every time someone feels threatened or wants to throw a wet blanket on a tabboo subject on here OR in life!



Again i have no problem with someone believing in the good man above but this problem has been brought on by different powers and it will take more than belief or prayer to fix this problem.i would like to have a few more deer someday soon but i wont even think about that for now and friends have intrest but i dont know what to tell them.Some states are fine with the deer and most cant move them out of state. Mabey all could have a no moving deer outside the state law and that would change things up. matt

Mark thank you for your kind words.......at least someone understands........it saddens me that others feel that just because a person speaks the TRUTH on their beliefs and how they feel about God that they are pulling out their religion card and hiding behind it. Wayne I can only pray for you that you will someday discover the blessings I have from including God in my life........I hope someday that you too can experience his awesome powers and unconditional love. This is my belief it is no card or anything else....it s how I live my life like it or not........HE (GOD) is all that matters!