Breeding question & debate

Four questions regarding breeding:

With the proliferation of 300" and 400" bucks do you think that the future of deer breeding will re-focus more on passdown production and less on gross inches?

A follow-up question is: do you think that more deerfarmers will be doing more live breeding with their own bucks versus AI ing with outside bucks to build a portfolio of sons to advertise passdown ability?

Third question: do you think that farms will start to change their strategies and breed their best does to their best herd sire instead of AI ing with another farm's buck and backing up with their best herd sire?

Last question: with the current trend in stocker buck prices do you think that more farms will do less AI ing and more live breeding?

No doubt there will be lots of live covers!!When you have deer like x-factor,king kong,rold gold and so many,many more great bucks out there it would be foolish not to.There will always the need for ai breeding because us guys just starting out need a path to follow,so we will need great bucks untill we find our own!!Most end results are shooters and any of those deer will make them all day long!!

I can't tell you what the industry should do as I can't seem to guess that right at all. What I can tell you is that I have failed and succeeded in the business of growing big deer. I can also tell you that I have a philosophy that if you want big deer, it is not necessarily going to cost you the big dollars to get. If you want deer that are worth a lot of money, that's a different story. I think that over the last 5 years, those two philosophies of hype vs. production have come a lot closer to each other, but you always have people really excited about big deer that a: don't throw big bucks, b: don't throw good producing females, and c: don't have the pedigree of producing animals in their background. Sometimes you just have flops and that is what makes it fun.

I know that I am not AIing this fall so that I can focus on using my own genetics, built over the last 14 years. I figure that if I am going to believe in my stuff, and I do, that I should use it. Now one thing about that- I can do this primarily because I have a preserve. It is much easier to get rid of females this way. I don't claim to be smart about anything in this regard, but I have a design that seems to be working for me, to produce big deer. I only use proven sires or ones that are from proven lines. Breeding with yearlings is a big risk, but a guy really has no choice if they believe in the pedigree.

I think that the doe is big key in this scenario and putting as many proven girls in a pedigree is far more important than the bucks.

People are going to continue to use AI as a method to breed with bucks that they simply cannot compete with on their own farms, it's just too easy and will advance a farm light years ahead of the single sire breeder. The only thing is, what if the breeding buck you are using turns out to be a flop and you have 100 of the same thing. The guy that uses AI may only have 2 does that had fawns. Big risk to breed single sire if you are in the game of a "deer breeder". One other thing, I don't have the money to compete buying the semen so instead of going to Nordstrom's I go to Wal-Mart....

Just my two cents.

pdaddy said:

With the proliferation of 300" and 400" bucks do you think that the future of deer breeding will re-focus more on passdown production and less on gross inches?

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I think you are already seeing this. Many farms are indeed looking at "what have you done for me lately" when choosing their breeding stock whether it is breeding sires OR breeding does. Everyone needs to keep in mind a good buck needs a good doe. ( I have Laurie so I am lucky ) I actually never did focus on the inches and always did look at the production in the pedigree. I believe that is where our luck and good fortune has come from. It is fun to see just how far the bar can be pushed on total gross score though so there will always be some out there taking that direction. But that is good because it gives choices to the buyers and choice is good.

pdaddy said:

A follow-up question is: do you think that more deerfarmers will be doing more live breeding with their own bucks versus AI ing with outside bucks to build a portfolio of sons to advertise passdown ability?

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A/I has been and will always be a great way of introducing new bloodlines (unrelated bloodlines) to a herd and to get that certain something your looking for whether it is a look or an animal. The last few years it has been more of a way for people to quickly up the bar on their own farms since not everyone can buy a breeder buck worth $100K plus. But I feel A/I will still be the best way for many to add that certain something they are looking for to their herd. I personally am a line breeder and I am always looking for a buck that fits into my own breeding goals. If someone out there has a buck produced from a pedigree that has what I am looking for I will use A/I to get what I want.

I currently have a buck that is worthy of breeding every doe on my farm, except of course for his mother and sister. But I have always bred specific does to specific bucks and I will continue to do this. As I said I am a line breeder and not a scatter breeder. So even though I feel my buck is top of the line quality I still have crosses in mind for my does with other bucks besides my own breeder buck. Therefore I will still always do some A/I at my farm to achieve these goals. That said my boy will get some work as well.

pdaddy said:

Third question: do you think that farms will start to change their strategies and breed their best does to their best herd sire instead of AI ing with another farm's buck and backing up with their best herd sire?

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I think the above question was addressed in my previous answer when I stated I breed specific does to specific bucks for a specific reason. So if I feel my "best doe" is not the cross I currently want for my current breeder buck then I won't make that cross yet. I will wait until I get the doe fawn out of the specific cross I want. Then I can breed her whatever way I want for fun after that.

Just as an example I currently have yet to get the doe fawn I want from a specific doe I purchased. I am trying to stack a particular doe in this Rolex doe that is in her pedigree. (GD Romeo's mother) So until I get the doe fawn I want, I will continue breeding her to achieve my goal. But if my breeder buck Updraft happens to give me a set of fawns from her so be it

pdaddy said:

Last question: with the current trend in stocker buck prices do you think that more farms will do less AI ing and more live breeding?

Click to expand...

This question (in my assumption), is assuming that many farms are doing A/I to produce shooter bucks.

I would hope that farms that have been doing A/I have been doing so to produce a better and more superior line of breeding does. I certainly have never purchased a $2000 or $5000 or $10,000 straw of semen to build myself a good shooter buck. Again like I said earlier I have used A/I to build better does. Which in turn produces me bigger and earlier maturing shooters.

Now I do think there are some farms who have or will use A/I to get some better does and then may feel they have achieved their goal and move on to just using their own live breeder to produce their own shooters at that time. I guess that is fine if they feel they want to stop there and not continue to raise the bar on the quality they are producing.

But then I have a question for them. Depending on how long you have been in the business do you recall the day when a 140" and 150" buck made you money? Do you recall then how it took a 160" buck to do the same thing later on? And now what is a 170" buck worth today?

The bar is being raised each year. It wasn't too long ago when it was said that 200" bucks would become the average, and people laughed at that. Can you believe we have reached a point where a cull buck has gone from 130" to 150" to 160"???

So is raising 170" bucks or 200" bucks really your goal? My goal is to keep raising the bar on my doe herd quality. Build does with bigger frames to produce bigger sons. In my opinion this should be everyone's goal. Every farmer has the ability to raise bigger and better deer each year. And no you don't have to spend your life savings to do it. Make smart investments in any new does you buy and in the semen you use. Use bloodlines that have held and continue to hold their value year after year. Use bloodlines and specific animals that have a proven track record of production. You don't have to reinvent the wheel and try using bloodlines that you think should be good. That is risky.

For years I have heard people say, "...you can try but you'll never catch the "big guys" in the industry..." And you know what, this is true. But to do nothing means falling further behind. Until your so far behind you might as well raise rabbits.

I can promise you that a proper breeding program that is well thought out and done making smart choices works, and works really well. And when it works the rewards is awesome to see standing in your pens. It is great fun!



Is the total gross score dying off? No. But the score has to be shaped more like a buck is supposed to look. A frame with mainframe points going up. A buck has to have brow tines. 4" brows don't cut it anymore. A deer needs mass. Pencil thin beams don't get it done anymore. And then some extras for added character and score. So back to the first question about 300" and 400" bucks. Yes the industry will still push for this. BUT it will be done using proven production bloodlines.



These are just my personal opinions and are not the opinions of this website or its makers.

Reproduction of these opinions without the expressed written consent of the author is prohibited

Dudes ya have to understand I'm sitting in a hotel room bored out of my skull. I have to have some fun!

IndependenceRanch said:

So is raising 170" bucks or 200" bucks really your goal?

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This is just an honest question:



Why are we raising over 200" bucks when the general population (hunters) can't afford to hunt them? What is the goal of the "breeding" industry in the deer? If the bar is raised to the level that a 200" buck is not great any more....what are the preserves really selling because for most deer people, the preserves are our end market? My understanding is that most hunts sold are from 130"-180" hunts because that is what most people can afford. So with the breeding industry raising 300" yearlings...who is going to be able to afford to hunt them? I've have always thought that there is only one path for a whitetail and that is to get hunted...they aren't really good pets (although some are better than others), you can't show or ride them like horses or cows, you can't take them on vacations like dogs and cats.



I would say that in the breeding industry, yes, a 200" buck isn't what it used to be. But you aren't ever going to get into the breeding industry....be honest with yourselves....unless you have a TON of money! But for the average joe blow deer farmer, I think 200" is still real and a thrill to grow and should be easy to sell if they have a nice look.



Go ahead....beat me now!!

You raise some good points. We have a hunting preserve and while you do get some hunters that want really big deer that is not the majority. So why do we spend all that time and money raising a 350 - 400" deer? I'm not saying there aren't hunters for them, but not as many hunters as there are big deer. Of course, it matters what it looks like too, but a hunter doesn't care about the pedigree.



Roger mentioned that people don't AI to raise shooters, which is probably true. But the reality is that even with some of the best semen, you will still be raising some shooters.



We like to feel we do sort of a parallel path - deer for our hunting preserve and deer for the breeding market. I think it is wrong to depend on either one totally. The truth is though that the hunting drives our industry - otherwise we are just trading deer back and forth.

in the end dont most bucks including breeders go for shooters i know that a good bit of people at this time of economy seem to want thats a lesser scoring buck in the 125 to 160 range

Yup so true but not to sound negitive, if you take what roger says and think about it.He makes a good point years ago a cull was 130 and now its 170.If we keep making bigger deer and the cull line keeps gettin higher we could very well put ourselves out of business.If most hunters cant afford a 200 inch deer and the cull line makes it that high because we are all makin 200 inch yearlings,Where does that leave us.In the end the price for a 200 inch deer is gunna have to come way down.That will put most guys out of the bizz that dont own their own preserves.The price for a good bred doe keeps goin up but the price for a good shooter will keep goin down.......Then what???? The bigger farmers will go on and the little farmers will raise rabbits!!!!

this is a great thread and has brought up a great point......we as an industry need to look at what we are doing.....are we growing what the hunters are asking for??? Or are we letting the desire to grow the biggest create a bunch of whitetails that our Hunters can't afford..........so then what is next......drop the prices......boom there goes a lot of farmers out the door........Roger makes a great point....we need to get back to making whitetails that look like whitetails.........the big scores are wonderful but in order to get it the whitetail doesn't iven look like a whitetail anymore.....we need to get back to big thick heavy framed tall tined whitetails that our hunters can afford!!

Maybe I wasn't clear or something with my posting. Or maybe words on a screen don't get the meaning across like in person. But I will try to be clear concerning points you make.

Yes Susan you are correct that hunting is in fact where the final product of our industry goes. Not for most of us, but for ALL of us. I don't care who you are or how great your herd is. EVERYONE has bucks that are nothing more than shooter bucks. I hate to speak for anyone else, but yes even the Flees' and Curt Waldvogel, and Billy Sage and many of the other farms known for great production have bucks that go for shooters and not breeding stock. However the farms with great breeding programs and top quality stock raise bigger bucks on a higher percentage than those with lesser quality doe herds.

You are also correct to a point that smaller bucks are in some demand for hunting clients who can't afford the higher dollar hunts. However with many hunting ranches dropping their prices to meet the competitors prices larger hunts are becoming more affordable and therefore more hunters are choosing to hunt the larger bucks instead of the smaller bucks.



As the prices drop it will force producers to start producing larger bucks, but bucks that look like whitetails, so that when they sell a buck it isn't at a loss but for a profit. Back in the mid 90's a 150" buck made you money. Not tons of money, but a profitable amount. With todays prices that 150" buck might get you enough to pay the feed bill and cover other costs like permits and testing. The actual profit comes when you sell your bigger shooters that you should be able to raise because you have upped your breeding program by buying better does or by using A/I to produce those better does. Those better does are what I was referring to when I talked about raising the bar in my earlier posting. Instead of raising 150" bucks you raise the bar and produce 170" and then raise it some more to produce 200" and so on. Note, when I talk about a score like that I mean on average each year for each group of shooters you have to sell.

Now I am not sure why some want to say they can't get into the breeder market so why raise the bigger bucks. Or that they can't afford to get into the breeder market. Really what is the "breeder market"? An animal sold for breeding stock is sold in the breeder market. Yes even a doe out of a 180" buck is a breeder doe if the buyer bought it with intentions to use it as a breeding doe. I guess if that is what they want to have so be it. Personally I think they could do better, but that is their choice.

I got a call recently from someone looking to buy a breeder buck. Like I told him, a breeder buck should have value to it. It should have some sort of pedigree behind it to make any fawns out of him worth something. Then when you buy the deer and use him you have another option of making money besides counting on the shooter bucks you produce from him. Selling a couple of doe fawns and maybe a bred doe here and there gives you some extra cash flow besides the money from the shooters you produce and sell. But if the breeder has no real value because of pedigree or its look and score well then who will buy offspring?

Whether you have a small herd, big herd, or whatever, when you have a breeder buck with value you can be in the "breeder market." Even if on a small scale.



I understand not everyone who goes to hunt ranches can afford or wants to spend big money on a hunt. This is true. However when I give my thoughts to people about getting in the business or about improving the herd they have I try and give advice that will help them. Not just tell them something to try and sell them some deer.

In my opinion your goal should be to raise big bucks. I won't say a score and create a limiting factor but instead I will just say BIG. Because your goal should be fluid and ever changing as the bar is raised over time. Why? Because I just can't see you making money raising 130" bucks, or 160" bucks, or 180" bucks. And if you never improve your herd you will fall further behind over time. Let's be serious for a moment. Anyone who knows me or is familiar with my herd knows we are SMALL in numbers. This past fall I bred a TOTAL of 8 does. I'm no big producer that has to find an outlet for the dozens and dozens of extra animals I have this summer. In fact other than a few animals I have ear marked and am saving to sell at auctions this year I have only 1 doe fawn and 1 adult doe to sell off the farm. And if I don't sell the adult before the auctions start she will be sold at auction or kept. And really the 1 doe fawn we have I would sort of prefer to keep her anyway maybe.

My point is I don't get on here and talk it up to try and cause a big movement in the buying markets. I talk it up to everyone about improving your doe herds and having quality animals because I truly believe in it. If someone told me when I started what I try and tell everyone I would be SOOOOO much further ahead today!



Four Seasons, I don't think the size of bucks we are all raising will drive us out of the markets. Hunt prices on these bucks is coming down at the ranches and there will always be hunters for what is produced. The only real threats is the preserves all raising their own shooters and not buying any. Or cutting their prices to gain market share to the point that there is no profit to the producers. But then they have to produce all the big bucks they need which means they have to make the investments to keep upping the bar. If not then they will raise the 130" to 200" bucks and shoot them while us producers supply them with the bucks over 200" to shoot. Which actually is better anyway since they can then still have a profit margin for those 150" bucks where we wouldn't as producers. Hunt ranches should focus on booking new hunters and producers should focus on growing monster bucks. My goal is to raise on average a pen full of Hardcore's each year, only bigger

This may surprise most of you and I don’t claim to know much but I think what these incredible advances in whitetail breeding genetics and this sluggish economy have produced for us as an industry is a GREAT OPPORTUNITY TO GROW!



THERE HAS NEVER BEEN A BETTER TIME TO ATTRACT NEW HUNTERS!



Now before you call the “Waco Ward” on me, let me explain how I feel.

As an industry , what is our biggest competitor? It is the free-ranging deer hunting. In the past a hunter in the Midwest could buy a free-ranging deer hunt in that $1500-$4500 range and have a reasonable chance to take a 130-160 type buck. In a preserve, the cost of the hunt for that same buck was basically the same price range. The only real advantage we offered was that our success rate was much higher and the quality of the hunt was different (some like it better, some don’t). But the VALUE of the hunt was fairly similar. That’s why most of my customers would come from the South, the Coast areas or places where their free ranging deer hunting was fairly poor! Most hunters from the Midwest will hunt the free ranging deer since they live with them year round.



Now things are changing. With the drop in stocker buck prices and the ability of preserves to offer better quality deer in that same price range, the preserves are really gaining ground on the free ranging deer hunts. You add to that the fact that most DNRs are charging outrageous fees, making applicants jump through a bunch of hoops and running the quality of the deer herds into the ground and the gap just keeps getting wider. In some cases if you don’t apply for a free ranging deer tag months in advance, you can’t get one. THANKS YOU SILLY GUYS, we’ll take the hunters!



I am starting to see a trend that I REALLY like. Hunters from the Midwest that have been hunting free ranging deer for most of their lives are starting to consider high fenced fair chase hunts as a BETTER VALUE.



Now before some of you say “We can’t afford to raise 160 inch bucks anymore, by all means please don’t. But don’t get out. If you were getting 3000 for your 160 inch bucks 3 years ago and still raise 160 inch bucks you are falling behind. However if you now raise 180,190, and 200 inch bucks you will get at least 3000 or more for your bucks. It doesn’t cost that much more to raise a buck now than it did 3 years ago.



THE GAP IN VALUE BETWEEN A PRESERVE HUNT AND A FREE RANGING HUNT WILL CONTINUE TO WIDEN.



LETS SIEZE THIS OPPORTUNITY AND RUN!

Wild Rivers Whitetails said:

..... but a hunter doesn't care about the pedigree.



Roger mentioned that people don't AI to raise shooters, which is probably true. But the reality is that even with some of the best semen, you will still be raising some shooters.



We like to feel we do sort of a parallel path - deer for our hunting preserve and deer for the breeding market. I think it is wrong to depend on either one totally. The truth is though that the hunting drives our industry - otherwise we are just trading deer back and forth.

Click to expand...

I totally agree that the best semen produces shooter bucks as well. My thoughts on A/I is to produce a better herd of breeding does. If during that process you get a strike and it a big buck then you have a better breeder or backup breeder.

I also agree that depending totally on one or the other (shooter market or breeder market) is not the right choice.

And yes we sure don't want to be just trading deer back and forth. The hunting side of the industry IS the real key to keeping this industry alive and well.

Very well put Sam.

SJames said:

T



Now before some of you say “We can’t afford to raise 160 inch bucks anymore, by all means please don’t. But don’t get out. If you were getting 3000 for your 160 inch bucks 3 years ago and still raise 160 inch bucks you are falling behind. However if you now raise 180,190, and 200 inch bucks you will get at least 3000 or more for your bucks.

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I agree Sam. That I think is one of my points I hope I was making. Just raise the bar on your breeding herds to keep ahead of the game.

The hunters will be able to afford these deer because a 200 inch deer will soon be the norm and the price will adjust to reflect that. The price you get for a 160 today will be the same for a 200 in a few years. A few hunters will always pay more to have a deer on the wall bigger than his buddy but that will never be the norm. Most hunters are going to pay for the median sized buck regardless of what that size is.

This should be good news to the average preserve. If through genetics you can make the average hunt a 170 to 200 inch hunt then you are way above any chance the hunter has of killing the same thing without a high fence. At the end of the day the preserve is competeing with free range hunting. Wouldn't it be nice to have more hunters wanting to book hunts in your preserve. We are on the right track in breeding better deer for the preserve, we just need to promote preserve hunting.

Think about it this way, if your average shooter buck as a breeder is a 190 and sells for $3000.00 you would have no problem moving those deer. People would line up to shoot them. We would still get a premium for a 240. If you are going to breed shooters you will always have to improve your genetics. But as Roger said you don't have to spend $5,000 on a straw. The whitetail exchange is full of less promoted bucks for less than $300 per straw.

Sam, very well put i was just telling a buddy of mine that has been raising deer for a long time the same thing, Look at the bright side profit is still the same just get to watch bigger bucks grow now days!!!

Thats why I like these kinds of threads......Sam that is an awesome point.....by the preserves having larger scoring bucks at more affordable prices this will give the hunter more of an interest in the preserve hunts.....I just hope everyone can learn how to raise the 160" and up bucks on a more consistant basis. I did quite a few farm visits to some of the top farms in the industry this past week and there were a lot of awesome bucks i saw....but there were still a lot of 130 to 150 inch bucks runnig those pens too..

I completely agree Sam. We are ready to explode! As soon as the economy turns, and it is slowly building steam, things are going to get good. I see the high semen prices for some of the bucks that are highly promoted and have the production to back it up. I also know that it was expensive to breed these deer to that level and I am thankful that someone had the foresight and money to make it happen. The result is for us new comers we can greatly improve our herd genetics with the offspring from these deer. I have intended from day one to raise shooters and if I can consistently raise 170 to 200 inch shooters in Alabama then every deer I sell will break the state record! Free range hunting will become just what it says "FREE". Who is going to spend 3000 a year on a lease in hopes of shooting a 120 when the could spend $6000 and shoot a 200.

SJames said:

I am starting to see a trend that I REALLY like. Hunters from the Midwest that have been hunting free ranging deer for most of their lives are starting to consider high fenced fair chase hunts as a BETTER VALUE.

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Sam-



These hunters that are now turning to preserves (and we have several friends that have or are thinking about it)....do you really think that the "real" hunter wants to shoot a 200"+ inch yearling. Hunters have values too. My husband has hunted all his life and has over 50 free range, public land deer on his wall of shame all taken by bow. He passes up young bucks all the time because they don't "look" mature. He prefers no younger than 4 years old. Those kind of hunters don't want to shoot a doe looking yearling with a 200"+ inch rack on his head. They want to shoot a big bodied, big blown up neck from the rut, roman nose, mean mother that blows smoke out of his nose with 200"+ on his head. That is who is coming to the preserves in the future or we hope. What is your opinion Sam?

Dennis those 130 inch bucks are fine today for the preserve but not 3-5 years from now. A 130 then will be worth about the same as a 100 now. I say that knowing I have a pen full of 150 - 180 inch does. But I also know that I must improve the offspring and AI is the way to go.