Joined Apr 2009
2,617 Posts | 0+
Edgar, WI
redwood_river_whitetails said:
Hey Susan,
I'm not Sam but if I could please still contribute to the discussion.
Your husband has a great set of hunting skills and a set of hunting standards he lives by and that is awesome. But many more hunters who buy a permit from the state and go hunting don't have those same skills and standards. Those people have to take the first brown deer with antlers that comes their way. Also many don't have the time to hunt several days for a bigger or more mature animal to come through.
Here in WI the average age of a whitetail shot in free range hunting is in fact 1 1/2 years old each fall.
Also I would like to say that I think most of the farm raised bucks that grow larger than average antlers also carry with it a larger body. I would have to say most yearling bucks on farms scoring 150" or better are doing it with a body around 170 LBS on the hoof if not more. Here in WI in the wild the average yearling buck shot is most likely significantly smaller than that.
Joined Apr 2009
1,130 Posts | 0+
Columbia, MO
Susan, Roger, Virgil, Dennis and others,
This is a fun thread!
We kind of got off the point and can and should talk about what hunters are looking for. We need to understand what they want and should maybe start a whole new thread to better understand it.
Here are a few of my observations after 17 years of hunting in preserves and 35 year of free ranging hunting.
1. There are very few hunters who can truly judge an animals age. I would guess that the percentage is somewhere between 0 and 5% Bow hunters tend to be better at it since they have to get closer to the animals.
2. There are no 200 inch yearlings in the wild! There might not even be a 150!
3. If there was a 200 inch yearling in the wild, he would never breed and never live to see his second birthday.
4. A 150 inch, 150 lb yearling buck will be shot much sooner than a 150 inch 250 lb 3 year old buck. They simply look much bigger in regards to the antlers.
5. Most of my hunters left unguided will shoot a buck that is too young and ground shrinkage will occur.
6. Most of my hunters that are guided and listen to their guides will shoot a mature huge deer that when they walk up on is much bigger than they thought.
7. We sell our hunts and conduct our hunting by remembering this quote:
"One does not hunt in order to kill; on the contrary, one kills in order to have hunted...If one were to present the sportsman with the death of the animal as a gift he would refuse it. What he is after is having to win it, to conquer the surly brute through his own effort and skill with all the extras that this carries with it: the immersion in the countryside, the healthfulness of the exercise, the distraction from his job.
Jose Ortega y Gasset, Meditations on Hunting.
This is a fun thread!
We kind of got off the point and can and should talk about what hunters are looking for. We need to understand what they want and should maybe start a whole new thread to better understand it.
Here are a few of my observations after 17 years of hunting in preserves and 35 year of free ranging hunting.
1. There are very few hunters who can truly judge an animals age. I would guess that the percentage is somewhere between 0 and 5% Bow hunters tend to be better at it since they have to get closer to the animals.
2. There are no 200 inch yearlings in the wild! There might not even be a 150!
3. If there was a 200 inch yearling in the wild, he would never breed and never live to see his second birthday.
4. A 150 inch, 150 lb yearling buck will be shot much sooner than a 150 inch 250 lb 3 year old buck. They simply look much bigger in regards to the antlers.
5. Most of my hunters left unguided will shoot a buck that is too young and ground shrinkage will occur.
6. Most of my hunters that are guided and listen to their guides will shoot a mature huge deer that when they walk up on is much bigger than they thought.
7. We sell our hunts and conduct our hunting by remembering this quote:
"One does not hunt in order to kill; on the contrary, one kills in order to have hunted...If one were to present the sportsman with the death of the animal as a gift he would refuse it. What he is after is having to win it, to conquer the surly brute through his own effort and skill with all the extras that this carries with it: the immersion in the countryside, the healthfulness of the exercise, the distraction from his job.
Jose Ortega y Gasset, Meditations on Hunting.
Joined Apr 2009
2,617 Posts | 0+
Edgar, WI
virgil said:
You were posting while I was typing.
Your right on with that one
Put a 200" yearling in front of them and they will squeeze that trigger faster than you can say, "see him over there."
Joined Apr 2009
2,617 Posts | 0+
Edgar, WI
Joined Jul 2009
1,215 Posts | 0+
Deer Park, Alabama
Most, including me, would shoot a 200 inch fawn if seen in the woods! I have never seen a 200 inch deer in the woods, only in a breeding pen.
Joined Apr 2009
2,617 Posts | 0+
Edgar, WI
Joined Oct 2009
3,165 Posts | 1+
upstate ny
Good points on all but you still have to think about where this is going to end if we keep making bigger and bigger deer.I mean 350 yearlings... wow thats crazy if you think about it. either way you still have to think about what its going to do with the price you will have to sell your deer for if 200 inch are a dime a dozen what are they gunna be worth???Not much!!!So then everyone will be going for 250 and so on.I dont know about you guys on here but i know i can not swing 6 grand to go shoot a deer anywhere in the world and i think if the truth was known most average joe's can't.Hence you have the brown it down and the 1 1/2 bucks bein shot for the freezer!!
Sam,
Thanks for taking the time to share your thoughts. Your advice has always been of great help from the start of our hunting ranch to reading your post this morning. Our first year many of our hunters were first time high fence hunters and they are coming back with friends,family,business partners. Sam you always look to the positive side to solve some of the most difficult.
Scott
Thanks for taking the time to share your thoughts. Your advice has always been of great help from the start of our hunting ranch to reading your post this morning. Our first year many of our hunters were first time high fence hunters and they are coming back with friends,family,business partners. Sam you always look to the positive side to solve some of the most difficult.
Scott
Now that we have verbalized our thoughts- how bout some follow-up questions!
How are you responding to the ever changing deer market?
Has your AI program provided you with the does to make quality stocker bucks?
Has your AI program provided you with a herd buck with desirable pass-down traits?
Has your strategy changed in your breeding plans that put more emphasis on live breeding that AI ing?
On average will you AI less (on average) than you did in the last three years ( on average)?
Using the bell curve concept, do you consistently produce better ( more desireable) stockers with your AI program than your live breeding program?
With so many great bucks being produced and the current trend in semen prices ( falling) is it realistic to continue to envision ourselves as providers of breeding stock to other breeders rather than producers of quality stockers?
"Perception is Reality"
How are you responding to the ever changing deer market?
Has your AI program provided you with the does to make quality stocker bucks?
Has your AI program provided you with a herd buck with desirable pass-down traits?
Has your strategy changed in your breeding plans that put more emphasis on live breeding that AI ing?
On average will you AI less (on average) than you did in the last three years ( on average)?
Using the bell curve concept, do you consistently produce better ( more desireable) stockers with your AI program than your live breeding program?
With so many great bucks being produced and the current trend in semen prices ( falling) is it realistic to continue to envision ourselves as providers of breeding stock to other breeders rather than producers of quality stockers?
"Perception is Reality"
Joined Apr 2009
1,130 Posts | 0+
Columbia, MO
Thanks for the kind words Scott. I really appreciate all you have done and are doing for this industry. It is a real passion and you can tell that all of us on this post are truly passionate about what we do! When you live it every day and see the pleasure that is derived by all the participants, you realize that you are managing the resource in the RIGHT way and that preserve hunting is and can continue to be a very fun and rewarding activity. When people try to take this right from us, it is because of ignorance. We need to educate people about preserves. Especially the ones who have never been to one. That is the majority.
I personally hunt both high fence and free-ranging deer. I have hunted bucks under high fence that were harder to kill than most free-ranging bucks (I can tell you story after story). I now prefer to hunt preserves and really enjoy hunting them with customers or occasionally on my own. I still hunt free ranging deer but rarely plan a trip out of state. Those trips are just too much trouble for too little reward. I might travel to hunt a preserve but really have plenty of hunting right here.
So….I occasionally think about why I’ve changed over the years and prefer to hunt a preserve and here are of few of my reasons: (Remember that ALL hunters have different tastes. These are just my personal preferences and don’t nor shouldn’t represent the preferences of any other hunters).
1. Free ranging deer hunting has become much more expensive especially for the traveling hunter. Cheap access to hunting land has become difficult to find. If you don’t own land, have a lease, or mooch off of a friend or relative who does, it usually costs you more than you think. Then you have to add in lodging and food. It adds up! I admire the hunters that still hunt the public areas but its no longer for me. I just can’t stand the thought of another hunter walking past me at prime time! My time is too valuable for that! And I don’t trust someone I don’t know for my safety!
2. Free ranging herds are mostly managed for quantity not quality. Enough said on that one! I can start a whole new discussion on that.
3. Free ranging deer hunting regulations have gotten to the point where they have suppressed the number of hunters and are so complicated that many people are “Afraid” to go because they might be breaking the law. Or they don’t go because they missed the June application for a December hunt (Ridiculous). When you book a hunt at a good preserve, that’s all taken care off. You don’t have to worry about it.
4. Preserve hunting seasons are long. If the bucks have full antlers, we hunt them!
5. Preserve hunting can be very easy or very challenging. Nothing gets my blood boiling more than the comment from someone about one of our hunts like “That doesn’t seem fair” . Again, we could start a whole new discussion on what’s fair chase but we’ll save that for another time. The point is the preserve hunt can be tailored for any degree of difficulty from an easy rifle hunt to the naked spear hunt. In our preserve we harvest a lot of good bucks. But there are bucks that elude us everyday. That’s why we all it hunting!
6. When hunting free-ranging deer, it is possible that a buck meeting your minimum requirements doesn’t even exist on the property you hunt. I don’t know how many times I’ve hunted a deer that was killed 2 weeks before I hunted it! Think about that one!
7. And finally preserve hunting is a great group or family activity. On most group free ranging hunts, one lucky guy is in the right spot at the right time. In a preserve, everyone in the group can have a great hunt. And the camaraderie is second to none. Although big family hunts can be pricey a family preserve hunt can be tailored to a smaller budget. I have one family from LA that comes up every year on a family hunt and spends about 1500-3000. They like to hunt management bucks and does and depend on that hunt for fun and a good supply of meat for the next year.
Anyway these are just some thoughts. I know we got off the topic but the real answer to the question about where we are heading does not lie in the type of deer we are breeding or how big are we going to get them. That will take care of itself. If the antlers get to big, we will eventually work on the body size. The whitetail breeders always amaze me with how good they are at selectively breeding for almost anything. We will adjust to what the market wants. We just have to make sure our end market grows. Now is the time. Promotion and education are the key.
I personally hunt both high fence and free-ranging deer. I have hunted bucks under high fence that were harder to kill than most free-ranging bucks (I can tell you story after story). I now prefer to hunt preserves and really enjoy hunting them with customers or occasionally on my own. I still hunt free ranging deer but rarely plan a trip out of state. Those trips are just too much trouble for too little reward. I might travel to hunt a preserve but really have plenty of hunting right here.
So….I occasionally think about why I’ve changed over the years and prefer to hunt a preserve and here are of few of my reasons: (Remember that ALL hunters have different tastes. These are just my personal preferences and don’t nor shouldn’t represent the preferences of any other hunters).
1. Free ranging deer hunting has become much more expensive especially for the traveling hunter. Cheap access to hunting land has become difficult to find. If you don’t own land, have a lease, or mooch off of a friend or relative who does, it usually costs you more than you think. Then you have to add in lodging and food. It adds up! I admire the hunters that still hunt the public areas but its no longer for me. I just can’t stand the thought of another hunter walking past me at prime time! My time is too valuable for that! And I don’t trust someone I don’t know for my safety!
2. Free ranging herds are mostly managed for quantity not quality. Enough said on that one! I can start a whole new discussion on that.
3. Free ranging deer hunting regulations have gotten to the point where they have suppressed the number of hunters and are so complicated that many people are “Afraid” to go because they might be breaking the law. Or they don’t go because they missed the June application for a December hunt (Ridiculous). When you book a hunt at a good preserve, that’s all taken care off. You don’t have to worry about it.
4. Preserve hunting seasons are long. If the bucks have full antlers, we hunt them!
5. Preserve hunting can be very easy or very challenging. Nothing gets my blood boiling more than the comment from someone about one of our hunts like “That doesn’t seem fair” . Again, we could start a whole new discussion on what’s fair chase but we’ll save that for another time. The point is the preserve hunt can be tailored for any degree of difficulty from an easy rifle hunt to the naked spear hunt. In our preserve we harvest a lot of good bucks. But there are bucks that elude us everyday. That’s why we all it hunting!
6. When hunting free-ranging deer, it is possible that a buck meeting your minimum requirements doesn’t even exist on the property you hunt. I don’t know how many times I’ve hunted a deer that was killed 2 weeks before I hunted it! Think about that one!
7. And finally preserve hunting is a great group or family activity. On most group free ranging hunts, one lucky guy is in the right spot at the right time. In a preserve, everyone in the group can have a great hunt. And the camaraderie is second to none. Although big family hunts can be pricey a family preserve hunt can be tailored to a smaller budget. I have one family from LA that comes up every year on a family hunt and spends about 1500-3000. They like to hunt management bucks and does and depend on that hunt for fun and a good supply of meat for the next year.
Anyway these are just some thoughts. I know we got off the topic but the real answer to the question about where we are heading does not lie in the type of deer we are breeding or how big are we going to get them. That will take care of itself. If the antlers get to big, we will eventually work on the body size. The whitetail breeders always amaze me with how good they are at selectively breeding for almost anything. We will adjust to what the market wants. We just have to make sure our end market grows. Now is the time. Promotion and education are the key.
I feel that there are a lot of 200 to 300 inch deer out there but most farms in the industry have yet to even raise a 200 inch buck on there farm. Even when they do they will still have lots of smaller bucks.That being said the little guy better step. Better genetics means bigger bucks and before to long there will be no more little guy unless he is producing big bucks like the rest.
Pdaddy I think there will always be a market for semen cause in reallity most are striving to get the bigggest and the best or should i say something that every one else wants. Thats just how it is and always will be. Some can just afford more than others and get there quicker.
Pdaddy I think there will always be a market for semen cause in reallity most are striving to get the bigggest and the best or should i say something that every one else wants. Thats just how it is and always will be. Some can just afford more than others and get there quicker.
Joined Apr 2009
1,428 Posts | 0+
Northeast Wisconsin
You are right on your points Sam. It is just taking longer in some parts of the world for hunters to come to some of the same conclusions about free range hunting. Wisconsin is a state that has a LOT of open public land and national forest where anyone can hunt. They just hop in their car and go hunting. So preserve hunting is something folks who have the free public land to hunt seldom consider. As the quality of the wild herd goes down and there are fewer deer in northern WI, hopefully our message will start to make sense. It is still a tough sell to someone who spends a little money on gas and maybe a motel for the weekend.
Leased hunting land is happening here but still not to a huge degree - unlike some states. Again, this will change with time and as those costs go up we look better and better.
I think there will always be semen sales - how else do people in those closed states get nothern genetics?? How does a small farmer up the genetics in his herd in the most economical fashion??
Leased hunting land is happening here but still not to a huge degree - unlike some states. Again, this will change with time and as those costs go up we look better and better.
I think there will always be semen sales - how else do people in those closed states get nothern genetics?? How does a small farmer up the genetics in his herd in the most economical fashion??
Jane, you are absolutely right about the northern genetics getting down south but with the current prices of good genetic does, it is more affordable than ever to improve your herd genetics through the purchase of quality does and doe fawns. That in turn would help move animals instead of semen, which is something this industry desperately needs. I realize that it can be very tricky keeping northern deer alive down south but it is being done. We started out years ago buying the best does and doe fawns we could afford and improved our genetics that way. It is still possible to go that route and it is cheaper than ever.
To answer Pdaddy's questions, we are going to natural breed all our does this fall. Just like we did the past 11 years. We, again, will breed most of our best does to our biggest typical buck and a few to our high scoring non-typicals. Since we do not have the added expenses of semen, paying an AI tech, drugs, etc. we have much less overhead in our animals and still do well with the current prices of shooter bucks. And with the doe genetics we have, we are growing great shooter bucks year after year.
To answer Pdaddy's questions, we are going to natural breed all our does this fall. Just like we did the past 11 years. We, again, will breed most of our best does to our biggest typical buck and a few to our high scoring non-typicals. Since we do not have the added expenses of semen, paying an AI tech, drugs, etc. we have much less overhead in our animals and still do well with the current prices of shooter bucks. And with the doe genetics we have, we are growing great shooter bucks year after year.
Joined Jul 2009
1,215 Posts | 0+
Deer Park, Alabama
PDADDY
I personally think there will always be a breeder market. There is a breeder market for every other livestock produced. The catch is that we can not all survive in the breeder market. Most of us will be breeding quality shooters or stockers for the preserve. At the end of the day we will be buying semen from the breeder market and selling most of our deer to the shooter market. If you know upfront you are going to be raising deer for the shooter market and control your overhead there is room to make money but you can't AI every doe on your farm. You have to AI a few does each year and use their offspring bucks to breed the general herd. The AI doe offspring will stay in the AI program to better your breeders each year.
By the way I plan to AI several does this year to your buck, so get ready to come to Alabama the first week of January.
I personally think there will always be a breeder market. There is a breeder market for every other livestock produced. The catch is that we can not all survive in the breeder market. Most of us will be breeding quality shooters or stockers for the preserve. At the end of the day we will be buying semen from the breeder market and selling most of our deer to the shooter market. If you know upfront you are going to be raising deer for the shooter market and control your overhead there is room to make money but you can't AI every doe on your farm. You have to AI a few does each year and use their offspring bucks to breed the general herd. The AI doe offspring will stay in the AI program to better your breeders each year.
By the way I plan to AI several does this year to your buck, so get ready to come to Alabama the first week of January.
Joined Apr 2009
1,428 Posts | 0+
Northeast Wisconsin
Good points Steve. Too bad there are still states closed to import. They can buy from other farms in the state, but the broader the market the better.
I was thinking about that the other day - closed states - really how silly. Deer from surrounding states move in and out and cross state lines all the time. Not to mention farmed deer are the healthiest and most closely monitored of any animal out there.
I was thinking about that the other day - closed states - really how silly. Deer from surrounding states move in and out and cross state lines all the time. Not to mention farmed deer are the healthiest and most closely monitored of any animal out there.
Joined Apr 2009
1,485 Posts | 0+
Vaughn, MT 59487
[quote name='Wild Rivers Whitetails']
I was thinking about that the other day - closed states - really how silly. Deer from surrounding states move in and out and cross state lines all the time. Not to mention farmed deer are the healthiest and most closely monitored of any animal out there.[/QUOTE
You sure have that right. Here in Montana animals on the Yellowstone boarder move back and forth. These wild elk have Brucelosis as high as 30% in some areas. Idaho and Montana has Brucelosis in their wild herds of elk but no bangs is found on elk ranches in either of these States.
They have proved wild elk move from CWD areas into Montana and Idaho. The DNR now states they will find CWD in Montana sooner or later from these wild elk movements. They now are just trying to ease the public away from the fears they pushed so hard that the game ranches would cause this problem and we should get rid of these elk farms, when they knew all along the disease would get here sooner or later.
I was thinking about that the other day - closed states - really how silly. Deer from surrounding states move in and out and cross state lines all the time. Not to mention farmed deer are the healthiest and most closely monitored of any animal out there.[/QUOTE
You sure have that right. Here in Montana animals on the Yellowstone boarder move back and forth. These wild elk have Brucelosis as high as 30% in some areas. Idaho and Montana has Brucelosis in their wild herds of elk but no bangs is found on elk ranches in either of these States.
They have proved wild elk move from CWD areas into Montana and Idaho. The DNR now states they will find CWD in Montana sooner or later from these wild elk movements. They now are just trying to ease the public away from the fears they pushed so hard that the game ranches would cause this problem and we should get rid of these elk farms, when they knew all along the disease would get here sooner or later.