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Cervid Industry Unites To Set Direction for CWD Reform

Mike, the one statement you made about PA is not completely accurate. Just because there is not the same process on intrastate movement as NY has doesn't mean that there is no record of movement. ALL movement must be recorded on all inventories registered with the Dept. of Ag. There is a paper trail for every deer involved in a cwd monitoring program. Every deer is on a "added to the herd" sheet through purchase or raising, and a "leaving the herd" sheet through sale, death or escape. Any problems that would arise from that have nothing with the regulations, but rather how they are implemented. Every farm that has deer should be required to keep these records with the state.

Also, do you think deer from a CWD positive herd should be allowed to be moved to a hunt facility? The way i see it, only that or indemnification would keep that CWD test from being a financial death sentence, and we agree that federal money for indemnification is not going to be reality.
 
Mike,

I know you have been working hard for your state and trying to do what you can for your deer farms in NY. And that is respectable.......but bashing other States as you have done at least a couple times now with PA is not going to fix things.....it will only divide us more (just what they are hoping will happen) just remember NY had CWD long before PA did so maybe NY was the cause of PA's problems......I certainly don't think that way but am simply trying to make a point..... trying to blame another state for the issues you are facing within your own state is unproductive and only playing into the hands of those that want to see us shut down as an industry. Deer can be traced back in PA.......we are accountable for every animal on our farms......yes were able to move animals within our state without applying for permits....however, we had to show on our yearly inventories what animals left our farm and what animals entered our farm....so all the deer in PA can be traced.....so I guess I am not

sure where you are going with your statement about PA......... Let's try an be positive about

what many are trying to do for us by rewriting the Federal Rules as this is a step in the right

direction. Yes each state will be able do go with their own rules regardless of what the Federal

rules are and that stinks.......but that is just the way it is.......if you can't live with these rules

and still want to deer farm then one will need to make a decision at that point as to either

move to a State that is more deer farmer friendly or live with what their State

requires......fighting to get your borders closed is certainly not the answer either........our

industry needs open borders in order to do business........getting your borders closed is not

going to make things any easier Mike.....you will still have to deal with regulations within your

own state and if every state decided to go this route how long do you think this Industry would

survive? Again, we need to focus on staying united and fight for what we love to do.........the

finger pointing game certainly doesn't help our cause this I am sure of!



P.S. Jeff23 sorry I Must have been writing the same time you were and pretty much said the same thing as you........
 
Mike,

I read your post and in part of it you seem to be directing frustration at me....EVERY deer farmer out there had the opportunity to read the document and submit their suggested changes to the industry. The only comments received, other than those from the working group, were from Donald Hill, Rhonda Brakke, Todd Landt and myself. If others had suggestions they should have submitted their comments to the working group to be taken into consideration. EVERY ONE had an opportunity to speak up and let your voice be heard. I personally took the time to read the document (and the rule for comparision) and submitted more than five pages of suggested changes.....that is the reason I have been involved in the process of correcting this highly flawed document.



When CWD hit Wisconsin in 2002, I learned real fast that we needed people who were willing to work to keep our industry in Wisconsin from being put out of business. This federal CWD program is another example of why we need folks who are willing to be active and work for what is best for this industry. It is no secret that I was one of those in favor of scrapping this whole document and starting over by working with our state vets on an industry friendly document. I was on the losing end of that argument, but instead of just complaining about it, I chose to help make the needed changes to the document we are stuck with.



Laurie
 
Laurie Seale said:
Mike,

I read your post and in part of it you seem to be directing frustration at me....EVERY deer farmer out there had the opportunity to read the document and submit their suggested changes to the industry. The only comments received, other than those from the working group, were from Donald Hill, Rhonda Brakke, Todd Landt and myself. If others had suggestions they should have submitted their comments to the working group to be taken into consideration. EVERY ONE had an opportunity to speak up and let your voice be heard. I personally took the time to read the document (and the rule for comparision) and submitted more than five pages of suggested changes.....that is the reason I have been involved in the process of correcting this highly flawed document.



When CWD hit Wisconsin in 2002, I learned real fast that we needed people who were willing to work to keep our industry in Wisconsin from being put out of business. This federal CWD program is another example of why we need folks who are willing to be active and work for what is best for this industry. It is no secret that I was one of those in favor of scrapping this whole document and starting over by working with our state vets on an industry friendly document. I was on the losing end of that argument, but instead of just complaining about it, I chose to help make the needed changes to the document we are stuck with.



Laurie



Well lets get one thing straight before i end myself on this post! 1.D and Jeff. I and others as well as you both know that the moving of animals on their own without permits is a case from disaster. You cant tell me because i know for a 100% fact that all deer in Pa that are moved are not all reported at inventory time. I do know this first hand!!!!! Lets say a farm did business with a farm just before cwd was found on that farm and then that host farm went down in flames. Do you really think that guy that did business with that farm is going to say,,,Oh yes i did and im going to write it down here for Mary Martin and then watch the troops come in and either kill my deer i have thousands in or shut my doors for 5yrs? Yeah OK. I am sure that will happen!!



Laurie there is nothing pointed at you per say but i sure hope you are not talking about the last emergency meeting and the 25%, I know a little about that. I also noticed in your post that Shawn or NADEFA was not brought up in there? Can you tell me the reason for this?

I also believe you heard Tim on the last phone call and he is spot on with all his statements!

I believe i know a little more than a few on this post about this whole deal and the ones that are so quick to judge me might want to make a phone call to their state vet and do a little heart to heart about what the Federal rule can and cant do and find out how much power your state really has and ready to use reguardless of a ferderal rule. Not all state vets are on board with this and thats not just Ny.

I will continue to do whats best for Ny farms and at this time a closed border with us doing business with ourselves and selling to states that will take deer from a cwd free state for over 5 years is better than sitting on all of our deer working on a year now.Or maybe i should just tell the 500 plus farms in Ny to pack up and move their farm and family. Yeah thats the answer!

I guess we will just have to wait and see the outcome of this and untill then i will say and do what i believe-know is correct!
 
Kurt you can do things any way you want and i will do things any way i want! You do like my posts...Move On! Yes we have been living with the rules the way they are and surving just fine! That was untill states that have rules like Pa and by the sounds of it what a few others want and move animals all over the state with any tracking of them!



Mike or Angie, Do you think because your state is radical with its rules that everyone should have to suffer the consequences? That is a liberal way to think! Lets just say tomorrow was the happiest day of deerfarming ever in the state of New York and we sent ya some republicans up there to run the state government. I know, what a dream but lets just say for an example. The federal standards go through the way they are right now and New York as a state now loves ALL deerfarmers but can't do a thing because the standards restrict them from letting things get ANY less restrictive. That is what everyone else in the country is worried about! Don't take power out of the hands or our state vets!



I will also let ya know that i am trying to do something about the Ny problem and that will to be another Texas! Then we can still do business in our state and sell outside our state! Best of both worlds! Kinda sucks but atleast Ny deer farms can still pay their bills!



Mike or maybe Angie,

Didn't mike run for NADeFA board this spring? I was sure i seen his name on the ballot. If so, i am glad you have revealed his intentions of closing the boarder of NEW YORK! My question to you is, does NADEFA know that your working to try to close the boarders? NADEFA is against anyone closing boarders, because it will be the way the anti's cripple the industry. Ask anyone what happened to the elk industry years ago. Closing boarders will kill this industry! There isn't many states that can be self sufficient enough to close boarders. How many deer breeders and hunting preserves are there in the State of NEW YORK VS TEXAS I can also assure you that NEW YORK will NEVER be another TEXAS!




"Maybe some of us know a little more than others."

Mike or Angie, You keep eluding to your knowledge of the federal standards process. Did you sit in the meetings a few weeks ago in DC? Have you met with the state vets that make up the working group? Have you been part of the working group this entire time? Neither have i but shawn, charly, eric, laurie and the others have. If you have some kind of secret source let us know.

You keep referring to THEY and US as if there are teams in this? There are a lot of people out there working for the industry right now and i don't think it is the time to be making teams.
 
Mike under your seneario above.....the farm that the cwd was found on would have reported on their inventory who they sold their deer too.......so it doesn't matter if the other farm repored it or not.....it is reported twice....once by the farm that recieved the deer and once by the farm that sold the deer....so one way or the other it will be reported......as far as people doing things shady or not following the rules.......I am sure it happens just as it happens in your State as well......and if you think there are not games being played in your state by some that don't like to follow the rules you are living in a dream world......the fact of the matter is you seem to be trying to point fingers Mike and that is unproductive!! It will not change anything as far as the issues we currently face........and now your upset because NADefa and Shawn were not mentioned in someone's post.......what the heck Mike.......it's not time to get petty and we all know NADefa and Shawn are working hard on all of our behalfs........let's quit trying to make more issues for ourselves and focus on the REAL issues we face. I am just tired

of hearing all of this crap about PA this and PA that coming from you......we are all in this

together no matter what state your from.......like it or not we all need each other!! Kurt ....very good points you made on your last post....I couldn't agree more!!
 
ddwhitetails said:
Mike under your seneario above.....the farm that the cwd was found on would have reported on their inventory who they sold their deer too.......so it doesn't matter if the other farm repored it or not.....it is reported twice....once by the farm that recieved the deer and once by the farm that sold the deer....so one way or the other it will be reported......as far as people doing things shady or not following the rules.......I am sure it happens just as it happens in your State as well......and if you think there are not games being played in your state by some that don't like to follow the rules you are living in a dream world......the fact of the matter is you seem to be trying to point fingers Mike and that is unproductive!! It will not change anything as far as the issues we currently face........and now your upset because NADefa and Shawn were not mentioned in someone's post.......what the heck Mike.......it's not time to get petty and we all know NADefa and Shawn are working hard on all of our behalfs........let's quit trying to make more issues for ourselves and focus on the REAL issues we face. I am just tired

of hearing all of this crap about PA this and PA that coming from you......we are all in this

together no matter what state your from.......like it or not we all need each other!! Kurt ....very good points you made on your last post....I couldn't agree more!!



Like i said before i will do whats right. Dennis you always have a comeback like you seem to know whats going on with Shawn,Nadefa and your state. Let me ask you this...When is the last time you called and had a chat with Shawn, Tim or any other member of the board of Nadefa and asked what their thoughts on this matter is? I bet i know the answer to that one.

I believe at times you make a great armchair quarterback without any facts!

Have you been on any of these ACA calls to hear first hand what some people and state vets have to say on this matter? Bet i have that one also!

Try to get updated before you come and preach to me of what and who stand where!



Kurt we had people in DC so Ny was represented reguardless if i was there and he is also a board member of NADEFA so we were in the best hands!

I said before i believe in open borders and i still do but if thats what it takes to get Ny back in the deer business myself and so many other Ny farmers are all for shutting it down and yes this has been discussed by myself and Shawn about what Ny should do so thanks for your input but we are in the best and most knowledgeable hands in the deer business.



I like how some on here are bitching about a few rule changes but they are able to do business as normal and can even buy deer within 10 miles of cwd.

Kurt i really dont give a rats a$$ what you think i dont know and you can do whatever you want your way and i will continue to do mine! Dont worry to much about where i get my info, Just know that it comes from people in the know!
 
"I like how some on here are bitching about a few rule changes but they are able to do business as normal and can even buy deer within 10 miles of cwd."



Mike, thats the best point you have made yet! That is exactly why we are in the position to buy deer within 10 miles of CWD. We take care of the problems as they arise and work well with our state vets. We have a good one here in missouri and we want her to be able to make that decision, not the USDA!!!! That is the whole purpose of cleaning up the standards document. And for the record, the hunting preserve here in missouri that found CWD is still in business. I think that if a farm in missouri test positive or is quarantined they will be able to shoot their bucks out in the preserve if the standards don't restrict us. Eventually we will be able to farm through CWD if we get this document right. It took awhile but you finally hit the nail right now the head!!!!
 
kurthumphrey said:
"I like how some on here are bitching about a few rule changes but they are able to do business as normal and can even buy deer within 10 miles of cwd."



Mike, thats the best point you have made yet! That is exactly why we are in the position to buy deer within 10 miles of CWD. We take care of the problems as they arise and work well with our state vets. We have a good one here in missouri and we want her to be able to make that decision, not the USDA!!!! That is the whole purpose of cleaning up the standards document. And for the record, the hunting preserve here in missouri that found CWD is still in business. I think that if a farm in missouri test positive or is quarantined they will be able to shoot their bucks out in the preserve if the standards don't restrict us. Eventually we will be able to farm through CWD if we get this document right. It took awhile but you finally hit the nail right now the head!!!!



Hit it a few posts ago. We have been that way from day one. If all states play on the same field things would be much better. But now that you have deer on your farm from a cwd state or within 50 miles you just took yourself out of the selling field of how many states? Many! Soon you will be like in a closed border because no states will take your animals!
 
So is your plan to spread the communistic approach of New York into the rest of the country? Is that how we "play on the same field"? You just got done telling us that these standards will not let us "play on the same field" because states can make the rules more stringent! So what exactly are you trying to say? How many states wont take deer from a CWD state? I have bought deer from a CWD state and i continue to buy and sell just like before. I don't understand the points are trying to make other than you would like to Impliment an OBAMACARE type rule that all states would have to be as strict as New York.

In an earlier post you stated that shawn and Nadefa members have been in contact with you about closing borders of New York. Was shawn and Nadefa supportive of closing the New York borders?
 
Mike,

I am not going to argue with you on who or how many I have talked too regarding the issues our industry faces..I have been on the phone and talked with Travis from ACA as well as others.....I have talked with many from my own state on where we are and what's going on......so you are wrong once again with your assessment above..........no I have not talked with Shawn and don't intend too at this time and that is for my own reasons...I still support NADefa financially and will continue.........I know who is fighting for our industries best interest and that's who will get my support....I have plenty of facts on what is going on Mike you may want to take a goood look at yourself when it comes to that..........you need to get over the fact that you have a bunch of idiots running your state and quit crying because other States have it better than you.......that is a good thing that other States don't over regulate like NY does.......this is what the industry is trying to change!...but for some reason you feel that if your state is suffering everyone else should suffer

the same too.....wrong attitude Mike......keep thinking that way and things will never improve

for us............maybe if the majority of the states operate under some BETTER (not worse like

your suggesting with your previous posts) federal regulations that many are trying to get re

written.......maybe....just maybe NY will wake up and join the rest.......I just don't see your

posts being very positive Mike and I don't care how many people you have talked with because

it certainly hasn't helped your thought process on how and what needs to happen for our

industry and the issues it faces! Closing borders....pointing fingers......and wanting to drag all

the other States into dealing with the same regulations NY does.......they are all the wrong

path!!
 
so you are wrong once again with your assessment above..........no I have not talked with Shawn and don't intend too at this time and that is for my own reasons.Quote



Really! You make this staement and then in the next you say im wrong? You have no clue as to where Shawn or NADEFA stands on this! You are not on any calls so you know what one person tells you! Yeah thats being informed!

I guess we will see what goes down when the smoke clears and in the meantime i will do what i can to keep our farms open!
 
Mike,

Maybe you didn't read my last post well....I have talked to many people....just because I have not talked with Shawn or NADefa does not mean I do not know what's going on.....anyhow.....I wish you the best .....I was just simply tired of you pointing fingers at PA......I heard it one to many times coming from you.........like I said, finger pointing is NOT helping anyone or our Industry for that matter.....
 
kurthumphrey said:
So is your plan to spread the communistic approach of New York into the rest of the country? Is that how we "play on the same field"? You just got done telling us that these standards will not let us "play on the same field" because states can make the rules more stringent! So what exactly are you trying to say? How many states wont take deer from a CWD state? I have bought deer from a CWD state and i continue to buy and sell just like before. I don't understand the points are trying to make other than you would like to Impliment an OBAMACARE type rule that all states would have to be as strict as New York.

In an earlier post you stated that shawn and Nadefa members have been in contact with you about closing borders of New York. Was shawn and Nadefa supportive of closing the New York borders?



You may want to do a litte research and see how many states will take in deer that have deer from a cwd state! Why doe you think there have been no other cases in Ny state! Why do you think we are 5 years plus cwd free?

Maybe you should call Shawn sometime and see what and if he has anything to say on the matter.

Like i said before we have said yes to every move they have wanted to take so far but i believe and have been told what they are reaching for will never happen and more effort should be done on the states level.
 
ddwhitetails said:
Mike,

Maybe you didn't read my last post well....I have talked to many people....just because I have not talked with Shawn or NADefa does not mean I do not know what's going on.....anyhow.....I wish you the best .....I was just simply tired of you pointing fingers at PA......I heard it one to many times coming from you.........like I said, finger pointing is NOT helping anyone or our Industry for that matter.....



Den if you really knew what goes on in your state you would know the black eye that this industry has gotten from some of Pa's dealings so do yourself a little research and get back to me!!!!! You may know SOME of what goes on but you will never know the whole story untill you hear from all sides and as you admit you have not done so,So it sounds to me that you are dealing with a one sided story!
 
Mike, if you have Shawn and NADeFa on board working on your problem then everything should be good for you and NY..... Then why all the negativity toward so many others?..... Am I missing something here, are there members on here whom are wishing NY deer farmers anything but the best?..... If there are then I must have missed that post somewhere and if I did I apologize for that...
 
Ok Mike.....if you say so......maybe someday I will have it all figured out like you......I know exactly what's going on in my state........and I am certainly glad I am deer farming in Pa and not in NY.....nuff said......I am done..... this is solving nothing......
 
Four Seasons Whitetails said:
Well lets get one thing straight before i end myself on this post! 1.D and Jeff. I and others as well as you both know that the moving of animals on their own without permits is a case from disaster. You cant tell me because i know for a 100% fact that all deer in Pa that are moved are not all reported at inventory time. I do know this first hand!!!!! Lets say a farm did business with a farm just before cwd was found on that farm and then that host farm went down in flames. Do you really think that guy that did business with that farm is going to say,,,Oh yes i did and im going to write it down here for Mary Martin and then watch the troops come in and either kill my deer i have thousands in or shut my doors for 5yrs? Yeah OK. I am sure that will happen!!



Mike, I'm not looking for a fight on this stuff. Do you think that only people in PA are willing to lie to cheat the system? If you do, I doubt that's correct. And if you know 100% that there are laws being broken and are not reporting it, then that's on you. My point is simply that the rules on intrastate movement may not result in as much practical difference as you implied. Assuming everyone follows the rules, both PA and NY have basically the exact same paper trail. You can't make more rules and expect to stop someone who is determined to break them, as evidenced by the firearm, immigration and drug (etc.) laws in this country.
 
Jeff23 said:
Mike, I'm not looking for a fight on this stuff. Do you think that only people in PA are willing to lie to cheat the system? If you do, I doubt that's correct. And if you know 100% that there are laws being broken and are not reporting it, then that's on you. My point is simply that the rules on intrastate movement may not result in as much practical difference as you implied. Assuming everyone follows the rules, both PA and NY have basically the exact same paper trail. You can't make more rules and expect to stop someone who is determined to break them, as evidenced by the firearm, immigration and drug (etc.) laws in this country.



Jeff i agree with ya to a point! The fact that a deer can leave a property with no tags,no permit and no state knowledge is what has us here today. They do not even know where the deer that had cwd behind fence came from in Pa! We both know that there are always law breakers and we both know that deer leave Pa farms with no tags,no permit and no state knowledge unless one or the other agrees to report the movement on their report.If not then nobody ever knows and god forbid any of those two farms get cwd and have done business with you or 100 other Pa farms! If every state made you have a permit before any animal leaves your farm we would not have the issues we have today. Tracebacks would be as simple as a push of the button! Hence more work needs to be done on the states level to get all states on the same page! Reguadless that i live in Ny, If Pa had permit moves only 500plus Ny farms would not be out of business like everyone in this industry is so scared of being!
 
Awesome Antlers said:
Mike, if you have Shawn and NADeFa on board working on your problem then everything should be good for you and NY..... Then why all the negativity toward so many others?..... Am I missing something here, are there members on here whom are wishing NY deer farmers anything but the best?..... If there are then I must have missed that post somewhere and if I did I apologize for that...



Barry its not the point of anyone wishing someone else hard times. It sounds like some cant handle that others are not so gung ho and may not agree on what and how all things are being done!
 

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