Cervid Industry Unites To Set Direction for CWD Reform

Four Seasons Whitetails said:

You may want to do a litte research and see how many states will take in deer that have deer from a cwd state! Why doe you think there have been no other cases in Ny state! Why do you think we are 5 years plus cwd free?

Maybe you should call Shawn sometime and see what and if he has anything to say on the matter.

Like i said before we have said yes to every move they have wanted to take so far but i believe and have been told what they are reaching for will never happen and more effort should be done on the states level.

Click to expand...

Mike you never answered any of my questions. You seem full of knowledge of what is going on here so fill us in.



Do you think the states should have more stringent rules such as New York to " play on the same field?



You stated you have had several conversations with shawn and Nadefa board members. Do they support New York in closing their borders?



What states don't accept deer from CWD states?



You keep speaking for tim, i don't think Tim supports ANY rules that might go into action that would restrict business in OK. He has said many times that Ok is one of the friendliest deer farming states out there because of their involvment in state government. This is not about anyone getting their way, but people have the right to fight for what they have. New York is a good example, if you take what you have been given you will get exactly the rules that you guys are following today. You keep throwing stones at everyone on here because we have more freedom but don't blame us for trying to make sure we don't end up like NY.

kurthumphrey said:

Mike you never answered any of my questions. You seem full of knowledge of what is going on here so fill us in.



Do you think the states should have more stringent rules such as New York to " play on the same field?



You stated you have had several conversations with shawn and Nadefa board members. Do they support New York in closing their borders?



What states don't accept deer from CWD states?



You keep speaking for tim, i don't think Tim supports ANY rules that might go into action that would restrict business in OK. He has said many times that Ok is one of the friendliest deer farming states out there because of their involvment in state government. This is not about anyone getting their way, but people have the right to fight for what they have. New York is a good example, if you take what you have been given you will get exactly the rules that you guys are following today. You keep throwing stones at everyone on here because we have more freedom but don't blame us for trying to make sure we don't end up like NY.

Click to expand...

Kurt i guess you dont read very well either. Take a look at post#54 and you will have your answers!

Maybe you need to get on the calls or listen a little better if you already are! Tim made his point very clear a to where he stands on all this and what he said is 100% correct! He told Laurie and everyone else on the call what he thought was going down!

I also remember a few posts on another thread where Tim set someone straight on the federal rule or any state rules on having to test deer! He was spot on with that one also!

I know what Tim stands for and he will be the first to tell you! Just as he told a certin few on the last call!

Maybe if more effort was put towards getting all states on the same page as far as rules,permits and deer movement things would run a bit smoother for all. As far as Ny rules go. We have been living with the federal rule to a point for years..Testing. Double tagging, yearly inventory and on. That which others now put in the same boat scream bloody murder. We can live with the rules. What we cant live with is states not having control of their herds and when cwd shows up there is no way to do tracebacks! Thats the problem!

Why do you think Ny is over 5 years cwd free?

You may want to do a litte research and see how many states will take in deer that have deer from a cwd state!

Where is the answer to what states do not accept deer from CWD states? This is post 54 mike, where is the answer? You are the one telling me there are a bunch of them.. Well, which ones are they. There is no need to call shawn when you have the information.

Why doe you think there have been no other cases in Ny state! Why do you think we are 5 years plus cwd free?

Maybe you should call Shawn sometime and see what and if he has anything to say on the matter. There is no answer here either. You said you have been in contact with shawn and Nadefa about closing NY. What did they say? Do they support closing NY. There is no answer here bud.

Like i said before we have said yes to every move they have wanted to take so far but i believe and have been told what they are reaching for will never happen and more effort should be done on the states level. There is no answer here either. First of all WHO is THEY? What have you submitted your vote for ? Who thinks that more needs to be done at the state level and the standards are a document that we can live with? Maybe somewhere here there are answers but they aren't showing up on my computer mike.



Kurt i guess you dont read very well either. Take a look at post#54 and you will have your answers!

Maybe you need to get on the calls or listen a little better if you already are! Tim made his point very clear a to where he stands on all this and what he said is 100% correct! He told Laurie and everyone else on the call what he thought was going down! I have been on the calls and i have heard Tim speak but he has stated that he does NOT support this standards document. He had a different approach than some but he DOES NOT support anything that would restrict his successful hunting business in OK. Do you think Dave Mcquad, tim condit and skip west support something that would make their state like that of NY, NEVER!

I also remember a few posts on another thread where Tim set someone straight on the federal rule or any state rules on having to test deer! He was spot on with that one also!

I know what Tim stands for and he will be the first to tell you! Just as he told a certin few on the last call!



Maybe if more effort was put towards getting all states on the same page as far as rules,permits and deer movement things would run a bit smoother for all. As far as Ny rules go. We have been living with the federal rule to a point for years..Testing. Double tagging, yearly inventory and on. That which others now put in the same boat scream bloody murder. We can live with the rules. What we cant live with is states not having control of their herds and when cwd shows up there is no way to do tracebacks! Thats the problem!



Mike do you even know the difference between the federal rule and the federal standards? The stuff you are talking about is stuff in the rule that we already have in place. Do you think every state should follow the same rules as NY? Do you think that since NY is so strict it will help this industry to follow what you guys have been held to?Do you think the tim Condict, skip west, dave McQuad (OK), greg and shorty flees, shannon thiex (WI),scott kent, todd landt (IA), john beam, Gary Olson (MN),Sam james, Donald Hill (MO) just to name a few states. Do you think they should have to play on the same field as NY?

Just an observation - the title of this thread is Cervid Industry unites - doesn't sound like it is to me reading all of this. If changes need to be made to the federal rule a majority of deerfarmers need to be on board with pushing those changes forward. I'm assuming NADeFA will send out what the proposed changes are and folks will have their kick at it. That way one voice and a united front can be presented to federal agencies.

You are right Wild Rivers but someone has been doing a lot of finger pointing on here and it is very unproductive.......it certainly doesn't solve anything that's for sure!

Wild rivers, I agree ! We have to be united as an industry.There has been alot of work done and we are moving in the right direction. I want nothing more than to continue to deer farm for a long time !

Four Seasons Whitetails said:

Jeff i agree with ya to a point! The fact that a deer can leave a property with no tags,no permit and no state knowledge is what has us here today. They do not even know where the deer that had cwd behind fence came from in Pa! We both know that there are always law breakers and we both know that deer leave Pa farms with no tags,no permit and no state knowledge unless one or the other agrees to report the movement on their report.If not then nobody ever knows and god forbid any of those two farms get cwd and have done business with you or 100 other Pa farms! If every state made you have a permit before any animal leaves your farm we would not have the issues we have today. Tracebacks would be as simple as a push of the button! Hence more work needs to be done on the states level to get all states on the same page! Reguadless that i live in Ny, If Pa had permit moves only 500plus Ny farms would not be out of business like everyone in this industry is so scared of being!

Click to expand...

This will probably be my last post in this thread, because I feel I may be derailing it. If deer are leaving a CWD monitored farm with no tags (double tagging is required) and no paper trail with the state (inventory, adding to the herd and leaving the herd forms), the present rules are being broken. And if those deer are going to a CWD monitored herd, then the buyer is at fault for accepting deer that aren't even registered on someone's inventory, because they will not be accepted at the proper anniversary date. If they were willing to break those rules, a permit wouldn't slow them down. I guess I just put a lot less stock in the piece of paper called a permit when those who don't want to follow the rules in NY just won't bother with the permit the same way they wouldn't have correct inventories in PA. Haven't there been documented problems with illegal interstate transport and improper permitting? If folks are willing to take those steps, they sure aren't worried about intrastate permits! Also, the on-site inspections in PA are supposed to at least verify farm tag numbers and animal counts. If the inspecting vet doesn't do their job, then more rules won't help. I simply don't think a permitting process in PA would have solved any past problems, and I don't think it will solve any more in the future. It's a money and power grab; plain and simple. It's probably just my nature, but when a problem arises and someone proposes more government rules and regulations as the solution, my tendency is to immediately call BS.

The biggest factor we should be focusing on in PA is that there have been three times as many wild deer test positive for CWD as captive deer, yet all the heat is put on the captive cervid industry while the Game Commission just sits there and throws stones!!!! The facts in PA (if not everywhere) are on our side!!!

Wild Rivers Whitetails said:

Just an observation - the title of this thread is Cervid Industry unites - doesn't sound like it is to me reading all of this. If changes need to be made to the federal rule a majority of deerfarmers need to be on board with pushing those changes forward. I'm assuming NADeFA will send out what the proposed changes are and folks will have their kick at it. That way one voice and a united front can be presented to federal agencies.

Click to expand...

I believe back on post #44 i asked the same question and got no reply. Last i knew there was a working group. Now a post pops up saying Laurie,Charly and Eric went through these rules. Is this the new working group brought on by themselves, Again? No NADEFA, No Shawn, No ACA....

There are so many voices out there now that some in Washington probably got a good laugh!





Kurt as far as you go..Again you talk out your a$$. If you knew what the Ny rules were when it came to farms and then ranches you would see what a joke you look like!



Jeff, I have one question for ya before you get off this post? Where did the cwd deer come from that was found behind fence in the state of Pa and if the answer is i dont know....Why do you think that is?

Mike if you have all the answers why do you refuse to go down the list item for item that Kurt listed and answer the questions? Seems you are avoiding them....

ddwhitetails said:

Mike if you have all the answers why do you refuse to go down the list item for item that Kurt listed and answer the questions? Seems you are avoiding them....

Click to expand...

Wrong answer D hes wants research done he can do it himself but i gota say i sure would like to know how if Pa is up to snuff on their paperwork nobody knows where a deer that was born,tagged and maybe moved and lived in that state for what 3 years i believe ever came from! Just cant grasp that one!! How bout you?

Your grasping for Straws Mike....his questions were pretty simple that he asked you and it is apparent you are dodging them.....I wish I had the answer for where the CWD came from...ask the Pa Game Commission as I am certain it came from the wild deer........I am guessing it came from New York since your state had it well before Pa did......and your State is real strict how could that of ever happened? I am done bickering like a bunch of kids......and I am mad at myself for letting myself get dragged into this silliness......I would like to see some constructive conversation about how we can make things better for our Industry and as of yet I have not seen that coming from you Mike.......I apologize to all the readers for allowing myself to get pulled into this senseless bickering....I will respectfully bow out and not tie up this thread any longer with this destructive conversation.......good luck Mike in whatever you do......

ddwhitetails said:

Your grasping for Straws Mike....his questions were pretty simple that he asked you and it is apparent you are dodging them.....I wish I had the answer for where the CWD came from...ask the Pa Game Commission as I am certain it came from the wild deer........I am guessing it came from New York since your state had it well before Pa did......and your State is real strict how could that of ever happened? I am done bickering like a bunch of kids......and I am mad at myself for letting myself get dragged into this silliness......I would like to see some constructive conversation about how we can make things better for our Industry and as of yet I have not seen that coming from you Mike.......I apologize to all the readers for allowing myself to get pulled into this senseless bickering....I will respectfully bow out and not tie up this thread any longer with this destructive conversation.......good luck Mike in whatever you do......

Click to expand...

Yeah thanks D but i will do fine but you say... ask the game commish on a doe that lived behind fence? I dont get where you say this was a wild deer? She should have been reported born and tagged,Yes...She should have been reported and been through inventory years 1,2,3,Yes...But nobody seems to know about this deer.

Like i said before,I dont care what they try to change. Hope it works out for everyone involved but we shall see! Either way in this case its not a federal anything that has put a damper on many deer farmers lives in some states. Its on a state level where the problem is located! Just as i stated in my very first post!

Four Seasons Whitetails said:

Jeff, I have one question for ya before you get off this post? Where did the cwd deer come from that was found behind fence in the state of Pa and if the answer is i dont know....Why do you think that is?

Click to expand...

My answer is the same as yours, Mike: I don't know. The reason I don't know is because, regardless where the deer originated, there are a million and three ways it could have come up positive for CWD. Let's just say for the sake of argument that it was improperly moved within the state of PA, wouldn't some positives likely have been found from that farm by now? People were probably asking that same question about NY at one time, yet you now believe the answer to be that the CWD was brought in from out of state by a hunter.

My issue is that we are discussing giving away more governmental control when they have a horrible track record for solving problems, yet a great track record of slowly usurping individual freedoms in the name of "progress".

Jeff23 said:

My answer is the same as yours, Mike: I don't know. The reason I don't know is because, regardless where the deer originated, there are a million and three ways it could have come up positive for CWD. Let's just say for the sake of argument that it was improperly moved within the state of PA, wouldn't some positives likely have been found from that farm by now? People were probably asking that same question about NY at one time, yet you now believe the answer to be that the CWD was brought in from out of state by a hunter.

My issue is that we are discussing giving away more governmental control when they have a horrible track record for solving problems, yet a great track record of slowly usurping individual freedoms in the name of "progress".

Click to expand...

Thats the problem. When it comes to cwd tracebacks are huge. It does not matter how the cwd got there it matters about the roadway of that deer. They will never know how cwd got there and atleast when it comes to Ny it was pinpointed down to a taxidermist, Stopped there so far for 5 years plus. With no other cases found yet. That cant be said for any other cwd stated that i am aware of!

When it comes to the Pa case, There was another case but that deer had record keeping done and movement was narrowed down. How a deer goes under a states radar for years is just crazy and there is now no way to know how many Pa farms were involved with this deer and now has cwd on their farm. Or Ny,Oh,Ill and so on!

Four Seasons Whitetails said:

Thats the problem. When it comes to cwd tracebacks are huge. It does not matter how the cwd got there it matters about the roadway of that deer. They will never know how cwd got there and atleast when it comes to Ny it was pinpointed down to a taxidermist, Stopped there so far for 5 years plus. With no other cases found yet. That cant be said for any other cwd stated that i am aware of!

When it comes to the Pa case, There was another case but that deer had record keeping done and movement was narrowed down. How a deer goes under a states radar for years is just crazy and there is now no way to know how many Pa farms were involved with this deer and now has cwd on their farm. Or Ny,Oh,Ill and so on!

Click to expand...

Sorry, you suckered me into another question.

So let's use the case of a deer that was improperly recorded from the get-go. How, when people apparently chose to disobey the rules that were already in place, would additional regulations have avoided any of this mess? Wouldn't they have cheated that system, too?

I really see this as eerily similar to the gun control situation. Criminals are disregarding the laws that are already in place, but when the "stuff" hits the fan, the automatic answer always seems to be "ADD MORE LAWS" rather than enforcing the ones already in place, just because that is an easier solution that makes people feel like they did something. It sounds like the inspector and owner at that farm were both negligent in their responsibility, and I don't see how more regs will fix that.

You are absolutely correct Jeff. A cheater will always be a cheater and find ways around the system. We where issued an order of destruction on 2 deer that where part of the trace backs. We had to hire an attorney and get a hold put on the order until the DNA results came back. Thank god for us the DNA had no match to the farm one of these deer came from or supposedly came from. I believe based on the DNA results ( NO MATCH )

this deer was probably wild caught or just hid from the time of birth. Bottom Line is there will always be ways to get around the system, and there will always be a few people that will try to cheat the system. Thank god DNA was able to prove something in this case.

I think the only thing that should have happened in PA or in any other case of CWD is the DNA should be done where possible to confirm the DEER'S origin prior to the slaughter of unnecessary animals. Get it right first before it hits the fan.

Jeff23 said:

Sorry, you suckered me into another question.

So let's use the case of a deer that was improperly recorded from the get-go. How, when people apparently chose to disobey the rules that were already in place, would additional regulations have avoided any of this mess? Wouldn't they have cheated that system, too?

I really see this as eerily similar to the gun control situation. Criminals are disregarding the laws that are already in place, but when the "stuff" hits the fan, the automatic answer always seems to be "ADD MORE LAWS" rather than enforcing the ones already in place, just because that is an easier solution that makes people feel like they did something. It sounds like the inspector and owner at that farm were both negligent in their responsibility, and I don't see how more regs will fix that.

Click to expand...

There is no suckered anything really. If a deer cant leave a farm without a permit FIRST from the state then all deer would be accounted for before leaving a farm. In this a doe 3 years old i believe slipped through the cracks..4 years? Alot of folks are suffering because of this one case and some want to make less taxing laws so when the next disaster happens we can say..Oh Hey..Someone screwed up! Might not be so pretty when it happens to someone else!

Mike

Here is a scenario that my state vet and I talked about. What if farmer A lost a deer, went out and some how obtained a wild deer and re tug the new deer to match the one he lost.

Down the road sold that deer to farmer B with a legal paper trail. 2 years later that wild caught deer ended up with CWD on Farmer B's farm. Think about all the animals that would be killed because of trace backs. All this because of one *****. Sounds a lot like what could have just happened in PA

I think what everyone needs to focus on is just how badly this disease is publicized and how we need to be treated like cattle farmers instead of criminals.

Four Seasons Whitetails said:

There is no suckered anything really.

Click to expand...

I was just joking about being suckered into another post.

Hey, we just have different opinions on the topic- no big deal.

Joe good point. That can and certainly does happen......anytime you get a business that can lead to money, you get people on board, good and bad people. There are crooks in the deer industry, but for the most part, we are a very kind and Friendly community, There is no other type of anything that I have been a part of, where I have had the chance to meet good genuine people as I have in deer farming. Thats why we need to focus on getting the rules in our favor, like the cattle farmers. I can sell my cattle anytime anywhere, there are no regs on our cattle, I would love to see a day where my deer sales can be treated like that.