Did we finally wake up

Dennis, On the sheets we handed out in Washington, that NADEFA prepared, we reported having 20,000 cervid farms in the U.S. According to the last NADEFA directory, we have 1368 members of NADEFA in the U.S. At our day at the capital in Minnesota, we have 597 cervid farms in Minnesota.

Gary

Gary

Thanks for the information.....I appreciate it.......

With those numbers I don't see how we can't afford to hire a good lawyer to represent the industry and do what we have too to stop the unfair treatment we are facing as an industry........let's just take a fraction of those numbers......let's say you have 2000 farms / preserves (and I think thats a very conservative number) willing to invest in the litigation process.....let's say each one was willing to donate 500.00. That's a million dollars in the till to fight for our right to be deer farmers.....like I say, I think those figures are conservative...and could be a lot higher.......we have the numbers folks......let's be willing to dig a little if it means fighting for our rights to be Deer Farmers!

At this late date, the only hope we have, besides litigation, is to somehow get the Fish Police and Possum Patrols out of the rule making equation. ACA led us to believe the wildlife agencies would not be involved and that the industry had the support of the Vets. and Dr. Clifford and I see no evidence of that.



It makes no sense to allow the wildlife agencies to help make the rules when they themselves are unwilling to follow them.

__________________

David L. Autry



David, I have been on all the ACA calls, and I don't recall being said that the wildlife would not be involved. The ACA has not tried to mislead anyone, for money raising proposes. Remember, no one on the ACA is paid. 100% of it's money is being spent to defend and support the industry. How many other associations can say that?



Industry does have support of the state vets. I don't believe you were on that call, but Dr. Hartman stated that they would support whatever industry wanted. Dr. Hartman spoke to the industry on the last ACA call. He warned us that this was a bad program [standards] for us. I asked him the question if we threw the standards out, could the states do ok with just the rule. He said yes! He has complaining to Clifford and everyone that the make up of the working group was wrong. Wildlife should not have been put in there. He has been stating that they are getting no progress in their meetings. Patty has been saying no, no, no, to all their suggestions. Dr. Hartman submitted a new plan back in Dec. He deleted ALL of Part B. Patty put it back in. Dr. Hartman, I believe is very frustrated with Patty.



A real behind the scenes hero of getting the vets. support was our Brenda Hartkopf, from the Minnesota Elk Breeders. She setup a meeting with the 5 top industry vets. [the working group vets. and the President of the Nat. Assembly] and the industry working group. She asked me to sit in on the call as the Minnesota Deer Rep. I heard the vets. agree that they would support the industry and go along with us to throw out the standards. They said this should be our program, If we weren't happy with it, they would support us. You can verify all this with Dr. Hartman if you like.

Dr. Hartman was gracious enough to come on the last ACA conference call, and tried to tell us of their support. But he was shut down. Our industry showed him that night we were very divided. He was trying to warn us, but no one wanted to listen. People of the industry wanted to stick by their vote and complete the process, even thought the industry didn't understand what the process was. I believe this was a disastrous decision, if not fatal, for the industry. We were told at NADEFA that we should finish the process. At the end of the process, if we were not satisfied with the standards, we would not support it. Is that not what everyone else at NADEFA understood? We found out in Washington that this was not true. This is going to public comment without industries blessing.



Dr. Clifford was criticized in Washington about wildlife being on the working group. He said the working group was setup for input, not consensus. He stated that several times.



I asked Clifford in Washington if the standards were optional or mandatory. He said they were optional, they were recommended procedures for following the rule. He said the states didn't have to follow the standards, but they would have to follow the rule to get their state approved. The states have to be approved to move interstate.



In Minnesota, we have received final approval. Interesting that the first 3 states approved, South Dakota, Wisconsin, and Minnesota, are several of the states that have been dealing with CWD the longest. I know what our Dr. Hartman thinks of the standards. Do you think he will force them on us?



I have known Dr. Hartman for over 25 years, I know he supports our industry, and our right to raise deer. As I have said before, the standards only strengthens the rule and the extreme reactions of states doing what they do when they first find CWD. These extreme standards only gives states like New York and Iowa the justification for their reactions to CWD. As I said before, if states want to relax their programs, finding out that CWD is not the end of the world, the federal program will restrict them from doing so.



David, I have sat through all the meeting with ACA, NADEFA conference, Washington, etc. I have heard all this first hand. Everything you have heard is second or third hand. A lot of your comments I have seen haven't all been right. You really need to get on some of these calls and attend some of these meetings. I know you will be welcomed.



I am a supporting member of both NADEFA and the Minnesota deer rep. on the ACA. We had better get united and fight this, or we are ALL done. First of all we need to get on the same page.

Gary

In Minnesota, we have received final approval. Interesting that the first 3 states approved, South Dakota, Wisconsin, and Minnesota. Quote.



Gary do you know the 6 states i believe that are approved to move interstate. I think many would be shocked to know which states are not approved as of yet!

I don't know how many are approved now. Our application didn't get approved until it's 4th try. Dr. Hartman had to go over Patty's head and got it done.

People understand that Patty Kline is the problem in Washington. I think Dr. Clifford got blind sided by her, appointing her to this. The 6 years at wildlife she has on her resume, shows where her heart is. One thing I see in Minnesota, is these wildlife people are indoctrinated to one thought process. It's almost like they have gone through a Hitler youth camp. They have tunnel vision. They can't think outside the box. They truly come out with agendas.

Gary

G O Whitetails said:

At this late date, the only hope we have, besides litigation, is to somehow get the Fish Police and Possum Patrols out of the rule making equation. ACA led us to believe the wildlife agencies would not be involved and that the industry had the support of the Vets. and Dr. Clifford and I see no evidence of that.



It makes no sense to allow the wildlife agencies to help make the rules when they themselves are unwilling to follow them.

__________________

David L. Autry



*************************************



David, I have been on all the ACA calls, and I don't recall being said that the wildlife would not be involved. The ACA has not tried to mislead anyone, for money raising proposes. Remember, no one on the ACA is paid. 100% of it's money is being spent to defend and support the industry. How many other associations can say that?



Industry does have support of the state vets. I don't believe you were on that call, but Dr. Hartman stated that they would support whatever industry wanted. Dr. Hartman spoke to the industry on the last ACA call. He warned us that this was a bad program [standards] for us. I asked him the question if we threw the standards out, could the states do ok with just the rule. He said yes! He has complaining to Clifford and everyone that the make up of the working group was wrong. Wildlife should not have been put in there. He has been stating that they are getting no progress in their meetings. Patty has been saying no, no, no, to all their suggestions. Dr. Hartman submitted a new plan back in Dec. He deleted ALL of Part B. Patty put it back in. Dr. Hartman, I believe is very frustrated with Patty.



A real behind the scenes hero of getting the vets. support was our Brenda Hartkopf, from the Minnesota Elk Breeders. She setup a meeting with the 5 top industry vets. [the working group vets. and the President of the Nat. Assembly] and the industry working group. She asked me to sit in on the call as the Minnesota Deer Rep. I heard the vets. agree that they would support the industry and go along with us to throw out the standards. They said this should be our program, If we weren't happy with it, they would support us. You can verify all this with Dr. Hartman if you like.

Dr. Hartman was gracious enough to come on the last ACA conference call, and tried to tell us of their support. But he was shut down. Our industry showed him that night we were very divided. He was trying to warn us, but no one wanted to listen. People of the industry wanted to stick by their vote and complete the process, even thought the industry didn't understand what the process was. I believe this was a disastrous decision, if not fatal, for the industry. We were told at NADEFA that we should finish the process. At the end of the process, if we were not satisfied with the standards, we would not support it. Is that not what everyone else at NADEFA understood? We found out in Washington that this was not true. This is going to public comment without industries blessing.



Dr. Clifford was criticized in Washington about wildlife being on the working group. He said the working group was setup for input, not consensus. He stated that several times.



I asked Clifford in Washington if the standards were optional or mandatory. He said they were optional, they were recommended procedures for following the rule. He said the states didn't have to follow the standards, but they would have to follow the rule to get their state approved. The states have to be approved to move interstate.



In Minnesota, we have received final approval. Interesting that the first 3 states approved, South Dakota, Wisconsin, and Minnesota, are several of the states that have been dealing with CWD the longest. I know what our Dr. Hartman thinks of the standards. Do you think he will force them on us?



I have known Dr. Hartman for over 25 years, I know he supports our industry, and our right to raise deer. As I have said before, the standards only strengthens the rule and the extreme reactions of states doing what they do when they first find CWD. These extreme standards only gives states like New York and Iowa the justification for their reactions to CWD. As I said before, if states want to relax their programs, finding out that CWD is not the end of the world, the federal program will restrict them from doing so.



David, I have sat through all the meeting with ACA, NADEFA conference, Washington, etc. I have heard all this first hand. Everything you have heard is second or third hand. A lot of your comments I have seen haven't all been right. You really need to get on some of these calls and attend some of these meetings. I know you will be welcomed.



I am a supporting member of both NADEFA and the Minnesota deer rep. on the ACA. We had better get united and fight this, or we are ALL done. First of all we need to get on the same page.

Gary

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Gary,



You are mistaken. I have information straight from Dr. Clifford as to what he agreed to and it did not match what ACA was saying.



Also, ACA's very own Eric Mohlman made the following post saying the wildlife agencies would not be included. If we can't trust ACA, who can we trust?



Message Title: Cervid Industry & State Vets Could Rewrite Federal

Author: Eric Mohlman

Posted: 03\29\2013 10:12

Location: NE

Message: Good News From the ACA



The American Cervid Alliance (ACA) received word today that the National Assembly of State Veterinarians, during their regularly scheduled meeting, gave support to industry in possibly eliminating the federal CWD program consisting of the current Federal Rule and Federal Program Standards. The supporting assembly members are in favor of doing away with these arduous rules designed to put the cervid industry out of business and starting over with a new set of rules written by industry and state animal health officials.



The three national cervid associations, North American Deer Farmers Association (NADeFA), Exotic Wildlife Association (EWA), and North American Elk Breeders Association (NAEBA), along with several members of the National Assembly of State Veterinarians, if approved by a majority vote of the ACA on April 9th *, will work to rewrite rules that will be acceptable to not only the cervid breeders but also the nation's state animal health agencies. This would be the cervid industry's program that would govern all interstate movement of CWD susceptible species. Also if approved by the ACA, wildlife agencies will not be included in this new rule making process.



Dr. John Clifford, head of USDA/ APHIS, is supportive of the cervid industry and has indicated that he would support this effort to develop our own program. This is a golden opportunity to reduce the federal CWD regulations and it is imperative that we stand united.



*Don’t forget to send in your association’s ACA representative so that your vote will be counted on April 9th .

Then Clifford is telling two tales. We met with Clifford and heard what he said. He also had private conversations with Rhonda and Charly.

Kurt,



I have given a resolution, litigation.

Yeah I agree Kurt...enough is enough already..........we had the chance to throw the whole mess out and start over but without mentioning any names of organizations..... that chance is now long gone!! Let's quit all the silly finger pointing....where is it getting us at this point? Everybody bite your tongues and lets band together and use our energy towards how we can fix the mess we are in.........

G O Whitetails said:

Then Clifford is telling two tales. We met with Clifford and heard what he said. He also had private conversations with Rhonda and Charly.

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Over the years, I have had communication with Dr. Clifford and I have never found him to be untruthful so I have no reason to doubt what he told me.



The private conversations seems to be were there is a difference of opinion as to what was actually said.

G O Whitetails said:

I don't know how many are approved now. Our application didn't get approved until it's 4th try. Dr. Hartman had to go over Patty's head and got it done.

People understand that Patty Kline is the problem in Washington. I think Dr. Clifford got blind sided by her, appointing her to this. The 6 years at wildlife she has on her resume, shows where her heart is. One thing I see in Minnesota, is these wildlife people are indoctrinated to one thought process. It's almost like they have gone through a Hitler youth camp. They have tunnel vision. They can't think outside the box. They truly come out with agendas.

Gary

Click to expand...

Well Ny is one of the 6 that are approved for all good it does. Hard to believe that some of the biggest states in the deer world are not up to standards! Our state even recieved an email from usda giving permission to continue to do business as normal with Pa and Ohio even though they are not up to standards and our state vets still are very wary to do so!

David, you have beat that horse and beat that horse, man David that horse has died long ago. You even said it in your last post and I quote, "The private conversations seems to be were there is a difference of opinion as to what was actually said". YES David, that seems to be the case, GIVE IT A BREAK ALREADY. PLEASE!!!

From what I gathered from our state vet Dr.Oedokoven, the reason SD,WI and MN were the first ones to get approval is because these states were among the first to find CWD in the wild and in captive herds and were among the first to have the CWD monitoring system in place along with strict movement and record keeping for all producers. They have proven that they have had a successful monitoring system in place and a CWD free captive cervid herd, SD hasn't had a CWD positive in a captive herd for over 12 years I believe. Since last year we now have the choice to keep testing and remain in the programs or can also drop all the testing. The couple preserves I know have stopped testing all together which makes total sense to me, it doesn't gain em a thing.

I'm not sure what useful purpose this discussion is serving. These forums were set up to PROMOTE the deer and elk farming industry, not facilitate in-fighting and disagreement.



So, will everyone please take a breather and cool off for a bit. Hey, it's spring time after a long and nasty winter. Go and play with your new-born fawns and calves. Count your blessings that you can do what you love.



Thanks,



Russ

russell said:

i'm not sure what useful purpose this discussion is serving. These forums were set up to promote the deer and elk farming industry, not facilitate in-fighting and disagreement.



So, will everyone please take a breather and cool off for a bit. Hey, it's spring time after a long and nasty winter. Go and play with your new-born fawns and calves. Count your blessings that you can do what you love.



Thanks,



russ

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thank you thank you

sdbigbucks said:

From what I gathered from our state vet Dr.Oedokoven, the reason SD,WI and MN were the first ones to get approval is because these states were among the first to find CWD in the wild and in captive herds and were among the first to have the CWD monitoring system in place along with strict movement and record keeping for all producers. They have proven that they have had a successful monitoring system in place and a CWD free captive cervid herd, SD hasn't had a CWD positive in a captive herd for over 12 years I believe. Since last year we now have the choice to keep testing and remain in the programs or can also drop all the testing. The couple preserves I know have stopped testing all together which makes total sense to me, it doesn't gain em a thing.

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Yes if they are not moving deer why spend the money on testing. We have not had cwd in 8 plus years but we still have to test 10% of our herds whether we move deer or not!

Mike let's give it a brake for a while.......I think it is agreed everyone os tired of the debating and fighting.......just asking....

ddwhitetails said:

Mike let's give it a brake for a while.......I think it is agreed everyone os tired of the debating and fighting.......just asking....

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Excuse Me! Talking about testing our deer is in no way debating or fighting. If you read the wording you will see after so many years of cwd negitive tests some states will let you stop testing. Last i knew...That was a positive!



No shock that Ny did not adopt that rule!



You are forgivin..lol