DNA What are your thoughts???

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Russ, what if the buck has never been DNA'd?? The hair will DNA back to that buck weather it's the right one or not. I apologize if my point is not coming across as planned. This is not about one draw, or just DNA on one deer. Until recently, I believed semen and DNA were not something you needed to question. I can't see it that way anymore. Like I said, correct me if I'm wrong. I'm hoping someone does! Because we can submit our own samples for DNA the door is open for those samples to be manipulated. Take Updraft and Downdraft for example. Because they are womb brothers, I think it would be very easy for Roger to submit Updrafts sample as Downdraft. Now he could sell semen and offspring from Downdraft that will DNA back to Updraft and be very hard to disprove. As far as semen, we drew Redcloud last year. (avatar buck) There is nothing, other than my word, to prove it really belongs to him. I could have switched tags for a day, cut antlers, drew any buck, DNA'd it, and called it Redcloud. Having said all that, I now believe getting good semen and or offspring more or less still relies on honesty, not DNA. Wade
 
Willows & Whitetails said:
Russ, what if the buck has never been DNA'd?? The hair will DNA back to that buck weather it's the right one or not. I apologize if my point is not coming across as planned. This is not about one draw, or just DNA on one deer. Until recently, I believed semen and DNA were not something you needed to question. I can't see it that way anymore. Like I said, correct me if I'm wrong. I'm hoping someone does! Because we can submit our own samples for DNA the door is open for those samples to be manipulated. Take Updraft and Downdraft for example. Because they are womb brothers, I think it would be very easy for Roger to submit Updrafts sample as Downdraft. Now he could sell semen and offspring from Downdraft that will DNA back to Updraft and be very hard to disprove. As far as semen, we drew Redcloud last year. (avatar buck) There is nothing, other than my word, to prove it really belongs to him. I could have switched tags for a day, cut antlers, drew any buck, DNA'd it, and called it Redcloud. Having said all that, I now believe getting good semen and or offspring more or less still relies on honesty, not DNA. Wade
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I am not sure why my bucks and I were used as an example. I just hope no one thinks someone is having issues in the country with any semen or offspring matching to my bucks. I have always taken great care in insuring everything is done exactly right. All samples, all DNA, all records, all semen collections.

I have the antlers and can provide samples anytime someone needs them to verify an existing DNA file on record.
 
Roger, didn't mean to put you or your deer in a bad light. I apologize. Just needed an example and yours were the only ones I could think of. Wade
 
I guess if the seller is a dishonest person looking to take advantage in this or any other business there would be no way to force him or her to be honest. The market will pull the weeds and allow the good honest farms to grow. I may be a little naïve but believe it would be in the best interest of the seller to sell exactly what he says he is selling to his buyer. Also, for example if a seller had twin bucks and one was big and one was small why would he want to sell semen on the small one to represent the production abilities on the bigger breeder that he was trying to promote? I do see your point and have had some questions about the accuracy of DNA myself and honest mistakes can and will happen from time to time but to intentionally give your buyer a lesser product is not to gain for the seller but a long term lose as this buck will be labeled as one that does not have strong heredity.
 
Wade you bring up some great points........the bad apples will always find a way to manipulate the process. The fact of the matter is, you will know if they are trying to hide something as to the way you are beng treated by the person you are dealing with......if you have questions and concerns about a deal and they are making it difficult for you to get the answers or betting around the bush......you can can be pretty certain you have been had. The fact of the matter is, by the sounds of things.......DNA is accurate and one of the only tools we have to go too in our industry to protect our investments when we make a purchase......the problem is you still need to rely on the integrity of the person you are dealing with as they can still manipulate the process if you are not there personally to see the whole process through with your own eyes........but it is good to have DNA I guess!:D:rolleyes:
 
We use Earl Souva from Great Lakes, and as Russ Jr. pointed out, they pull hair on the buck that you are collecting that day.

I just don't see what would motivate someone to sell semen from a "lesser" animal and try to pawn it off as another buck. Most farms that are selling semen want to see the BEST production they can from their animals to help prove them as a productive sire. It doesn't make any sense to try and sell something that isn't the genuine article.
 
Just for the record. I bought a doe out of Maxwell from Craig Crystal. She was purchased expressly to breed to Maximus D/T. She was delivered to his pen and was let in with him. He never left that pen and she never left that pen for 3 years. The fawns came back to her and a D/T son. The D/T son was never closer than 6 pens away. The son was a great deer and produced well but there was a huge difference in the value. I resent samples of all the deer and could not get any change. I guess she was a tramp, who sneaked out and through 6 fences to reach her lover of choice and then would return before daylight. He must have been superb in the hay.
 
Depends on how close related the deer are sometimes. You want a better example. A friend of mine whom you all know, DNA's every deer on their farm. Last year one came back as being out of a doe fawn that was born on his farm the year before. No problem right? Well the doe fawn died at 2 weeks old and had long since became coyote crap and then supper for a opossum. Thats why they want to know when a deer dies, to get it out of possibilities. They will tell you at DNA solutions the answer to all these questions if you ask them. They are very good, honest people and understand that the line breeding over and over is a couse for more markers. I guess I lie a lot but in this instance Dennis I was telling the truth.
 
Tim

Sorry my post came across that way....I did not intend for it to.......guess I should have worded it differently.........just trying to get that exact scoop on DNA. Thanks for your input....I appreciate it!!
 
I don't think there is an exact at this time. I am past the point of caring anyway. My best producers are always the ones with weak national pedigrees, except for Maximus D/T. 10 sons over 30 inches inside is pretty good I think. Advice to new breeders, breed modern big time bucks to old time doe genetics or vice versa. Thats the best advice you may ever get unless you can get your hands on Blue 37!
 
Good answer tim..I have been trying to say that for two years now.. There are a select few on here that say that way of thinking is yote crap as you say..lol...The proof is in the looks of these bucks that are coming out of these crosses. With all this line breeding going on with some of the top deer...Its starting to show thats not working... A good view of this is talking to some top farms selling does they paid 30 grand for at auction and now selling them for 3 grand... Not producing!!!!
 
DNA testing is only as accurate as the least careful person in the change of custody. Also since we are in nature perverse, we build peversity into our technology.



It is found that anything that can go wrong at sea generally does go wrong sooner or later, so it is not to be wondered that owners prefer the safe to the scientific.... Sufficient stress can hardly be laid on the advantages of simplicity. The human factor cannot be safely neglected in planning machinery. If attention is to be obtained, the engine must be such that the engineer will be disposed to attend to it.
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Alfred Holt 1877
 

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