Freak Show Bucks

Wild Rivers Whitetails said:

Every record book deer is a freak of nature - because it doesn't occur regularly. Having been in the hunting business for over 15 years we can tell you that one person's freak is the next guy's dream buck.



I find it hard to believe that deerfarmers aren't breeding for inches, since no one says I'm trying to breed small antlered deer. We are maximizing their genetic potential. What I don't like are the comments about steriods etc. suggesting we are doing something under the table. I can guarantee you we have not done anything like that. Ballistic is a cross of HyJax and Redoy Ruger doe - no one could have guessed this particular result. While both of those deer were great deer they didn't approach anything close to what Ballistic produced. The other thing is that he CAN carry this rack and is carrying it right now. He is shedding his velvet as we speak so is in hard antler.

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Well Gary and Jane, success bring jealousy and pettiness from others. That is just simply a fact and I am sure I am not tell you anything you guys didn't already know. Every farmer who has ever produced a "big buck" can tell you that it will happen. Curt W., Dave M, the Flees', Kevin C, Harry S, the Griffith bros, the Walk's and everyone else over the years. I had it also during the success with my small farm.



It is a fact that we ALL are trying to grow BIG deer and I don't care what ANYONE says. The "look" MIGHT mean more to one person over the other due to personal preference, but in general we ALL want to grow bigger bucks.

Like you said, if it wasn't true we would just grow small bucks and be happy with a 4 year old scoring 140" instead of yearlings scoring 140".



A very old and wise (although eccentric at times) deer farmer once told me his opinion on raising bucks. And it is very close to the truth.

He said if you raise 100 bucks you will get 20% that are duds and not worth anything because they are small. You will get 60% that are from average to big. And you will get 20% that are above average and in the really big category.

It is simply an odds game and I bet every old timer deer "breeder" will tell you that.



All today's industry has done is shift the definition of "small", "average" and "really big". Meaning where years back we thought a 120" buck was small and a 180" buck was big we no longer think that way. The bar raised over the years to where a 150" buck was small and a 200" buck was big. Then a 180" buck was small and a 250" buck became big.



Years ago there were also "freaks" that came along every so often. But back then marketing wasn't as it is today. Most of those bucks were never known to even exist outside the immediate area it was grown. It was only by word of mouth that others happen to hear about the monster buck that so and so raised.

It would sometimes be used for breeding does but more often than not it was sent to a hunting ranch and the profits were made quickly because everyone knew it could die from some event like dogs, and such.



Then the breeder market changed the way people thought about those big bucks known as freaks. Folks realized they could sell fawns and bred does from those monsters.

Then semen collection came along and made yet another way for the producer to profit from that freak monster buck.



A/I then was the major factor in the wide spread genetic potential of many farms across the country to produce bigger bucks with more consistency. Then by pure percentages the bar was raised to the point that eventually it had to happen and bucks like Ballistic, Big Rig, Free Agent, and King Kong would come to exist.



Today's growers are not producing bucks because they are cheating nature in some way. They are not growing bucks because there is some secret powder or ingredient that makes antlers grow from the head like a weed in a flower garden. It is simply a numbers game or the percentages game at its finest.

Now I don't say folks around the country aren't trying to find that magic powder to grow bigger deer. They sure are and many folks have made money selling that magic powder as well.

But I know in my heart and mind that growing big deer happens from the stacking or line breeding of quality, proven genetics and the use of a properly balanced feed and a low stress environment.

At least that is all I ever did to produce the bucks we did over the years. And the folks I know who admitted to me they tried these magic powders over the years said that none of them ever did any good they could see so they stopped wasting the money on them.



The long and short of it is big bucks come from proper breeding, balanced nutrition, low stress, and God. Because if anyone thinks "luck" doesn't have anything to do with growing big deer they have another thing to learn.



P.S. What kills me is how jealousy clouds a persons mind to the point they would rather bad mouth their own industry and the folks in it rather than simply realize that some out there have put the time, money and effort into producing the deer THEY wanted to produce and in turn had success doing it.

They then try to dictate to others what they should or shouldn't be raising which totally takes away freedom and choice. The same kind of thought process that animal rights activists use against the industry when they try to tell us what we can or can't do.

Well put Roger. Look at the semen prices, if everyone wants the 200 inch typical then why is the 400-500 inchers bringing more money? They call typicals typical because thats what they are, typical. I would say a 270 inch mainframe isn't exactly typical, maybe symmetrical. Most people who want to raise bigger deer want to breed with bigger inches, it increases the odds like Roger said. That's why it costs more to shoot a bigger buck, obviously more demand and people will pay more, pretty simple concept. Look at Sudden Impact, throwing big typicals, who woulda thunk it!!

I must ask why we are going at it on here? Deer Forums? at each other? Why are we explaining our industry to each other? Should we not be on the other site trying to educate those who are viewing and reading the accusations, lies, and misinformed information provided to them by the author. Shouldn't that be the focus of your frustration? That place should be flooded with your opinions. Who should fight for your industry if not yourself.



If i had a subscription to outdoor life i would write to the editor letting them know that do to this article and its partial facts they will not be receiving a subscription renewal from me! I would address the issue by informing the uninformed on that site and then take it to the wallet of outdoor life. I would encourage you all to do the same.



Lets say out of the 7000 registered deer farmers in the United states lets say half have subscriptions. 3500 deer farmers at $30 per year (subscription) comes out to be $105,000 per year. At that point do you think some one would want to make right? im not sure but it still is a powerful statement.

The bottom line is we will always be judged by what we raise,how we raise and what we raise looks like.It was not just ballistic's pic on there but when you have the words biggest whitetail ever hooked to something you are going to get the good,the bad and the ugly.I dont think alot of the bucks that get big in the wild are freaks.Mother nature has a way of making sure that there is no line breeding or stacking as roger calls it of blood.When we say line bred deer they say in bred deer.Who's right??In a way i guess both could be.Not to many years ago gary and jane had a pic of stretch that made the front cover of field and stream. Was there hype about that??Probably not because that is what every hunter hopes and dreams will walk out in front of him when he gets to his stand every morning.You are dealing with two total different beasts when you talk wild and pen raised.It is what it is and we can only stand up for what we do and try to make it shine in a good light.

I took the time to post on Outdoor Life's comment section for the "public", magazine and Craig to read.... anyone else? Like Matthew said... chatting on here is only preaching to the choir.

Circle J Ranch said:

I must ask why we are going at it on here? Deer Forums? at each other? Why are we explaining our industry to each other? Should we not be on the other site trying to educate those who are viewing and reading the accusations, lies, and misinformed information provided to them by the author. Shouldn't that be the focus of your frustration? That place should be flooded with your opinions. Who should fight for your industry if not yourself.



If i had a subscription to outdoor life i would write to the editor letting them know that do to this article and its partial facts they will not be receiving a subscription renewal from me! I would address the issue by informing the uninformed on that site and then take it to the wallet of outdoor life. I would encourage you all to do the same.



Lets say out of the 7000 registered deer farmers in the United states lets say half have subscriptions. 3500 deer farmers at $30 per year (subscription) comes out to be $105,000 per year. At that point do you think some one would want to make right? im not sure but it still is a powerful statement.

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Well Matthew, as someone who has been to Washington DC and to my state capitol talking with lawmakers, their aids, lawyers, and department heads from the US Fish and Wildlife, USDA, WI Dept of Ag, WI DNR, and several other agencies and department heads, I can say I have been among those who have tried to educate about the lies and misinformation. I have also been on talk radio programs discussing these vary issues among many other issues affecting our industry. In fact Gary Nelson and I together appeared on a talk radio program in WI discussing the issues affecting the industry. I did speak on a national radio program as well.

This isn't the first time that the liberally owned Outdoor Life/Field & Stream magazines took a stance against our industry or tried to slant and misinform the readers about the raising of whitetail deer. I was among those who at that time drafted language to dispute what was published. As was Gary Nelson. Yes, Gary in years past played a huge role in the forward movement and defense of the whitetail industry.

Frankly the magazine all but snubs any recourse the industry takes against what they print. Although $105K seems like a lot of money to the average guy like me, to Outdoor Life it is but a drop in the bucket to them. Especially since they feel they are "fighting the good fight" with what they print and how they print it.

Mike from Four Seasons won't like this comment but he rarely likes anything I have to say anyway so who cares. But the fact is the purist hunters and even those who aren't purists think that our industry puts a "bad light" on hunting in general. That is the argument many of them use as to why our industry should be shutdown in the first place.

That argument is of course a load of $hit since the animal rights activists and the liberal pukes who condemn hunting don't really care if the animal was raised in a fence, or was born in the wilds of some remote wilderness area. They don't care if the animal is in the wild or in a fence. They don't care whether it was shot with a gun with lead bullets, steel bullets, or a compound bow and arrow, or a hand made recurve bow and hand made wooden arrows. They don't care how purist the hunter is in his or her pursuit of the animal. They don't care about fair chase, hunting tactics, or scouting techniques. They simply feel the killing of any animal is wrong and won't stop until they have slowly whittled away at every aspect of hunting until they have accomplished their true goal of a total ban on hunting and killing of animals of all kinds.

The only way to combat this agenda is to yes inform the public about who we are and what we do. But we can't fall victim to the pull back and retreat idea for a defense. We as an industry need to take the offense and fight for our hunting rights, and our rights to raise animals. In general most Americans believe there is nothing wrong with hunting. They believe eating meat is fine. But as with many things in this world if you chisel away at the foundation of a thought, soon you can change the focus and the stance many people have towards an idea.

Just because a buck like Ballistic, Big Rig and Sudden Impact don't look like the average whitetail running across the road doesn't mean they shouldn't exist. In fact isn't the idea that an animals potential can be maximized in that way make it all the more important to do it? The industry is not trying to change the entire whitetail population into non-typicals. We are instead creating a more diversified animal in both typicals and non-typicals.

I have always hated the idea that a group will sacrifice some to save the rest. If someone chooses to take their breeding program towards the non-typical look that is their choice. It's not like these folks are cross breeding long horn cattle to whitetails to create a new breed of animal. They are simply stacking non-tyipcals and high blood flow genetics to allow the animal to reach its maximum potential of bone growth. There is no reason we should be ashamed of this fact and try to spin the industry in some way to make it shine in a better light.

Roger it does not matter at this point if we agree with each other or not!!! I'm saying that in my part of the world there are many hunters that dont believe there should be high fences for whitetail harvest..that is a fact..But i can tell you first hand from many people that are ok with whitetails behind fences(and some are hunters)Untill they see deer that no longer look like deer!!! They say freaks because of the manipulation of blood with each other.Call it what you will but to a point it could be called inbreeding.In the wild they say it dont happen but how do they know if mabey a father found a daughter in heat somewhere in the woods and thats where the record buck came from!!

I'll promise you if a mature buck who is near his daughter somewhere in the wild and she is in heat, he will breed her if he is the dominant buck. Unless they know how to take DNA samples, how would they know or care? The chances are less because of the number of deer but it CAN happen and DOES. "In the wild they say it doesn't happen", who is they, a biologist right? North American Whitetail Magazine article, With a net non-typical Boone and Crockett score of 307 5/8, Tony Lovstuen’s 38-point Iowa monster is the world’s biggest whitetail ever shot by a hunter. I guess Tony should feel bad for shooting the "freak". He became 307 inches because he had what everyone is trying to do with a fence, good genetics, age, nutrition, and LUCK that someone didn't shoot him when he was 1-3 yrs. old. The potential world record buck gets shot hundreds if not thousands of times every year, they just don't live long enough in the wild to become it and because of too much hunting pressure, cars, predators, sickness and every thing else that kills em. The fence HELPS protect them from most of these factors. I live near a 400 acre public island in the Missouri River that used to be some of the best bowhunting in the country 30 years ago, no gun hunting was allowed and hardly anyone around here bowhunted and if they did the equipment wasn't anything like it is today. Now that same island has a bowhunter behind every tree and if a deer reaches 2 yrs old he's dam lucky. Another thing, I've tried for 30 years to corner one of those bucks on that island and not yet have I ever made it happen. Everyone who said we are loosing the amount of hunters should come out this way once, there is more pressure now then ever before and the number of lic. sales has increased every year also.

I love this comment I just read

I just would like to say to all the hunters out here were do you think your deer scent comes from? I have lived in the country all my life hunting fishing and so on I have never seen any hunter in my area out in the woods holding a bottle under a doe so he can have some good deer scent

When trying to understand hunters in "general" a quote worth remembering.



"The value of the experience is inverse to the artificiality" Aldo Leopold.



When marketing deer & hunts "keeping it real",or as real as possible has value.



Cheers Sharkey

My question is, what is the difference between shooting a deer in a preserve or catching a bass in a stocked pond. As far as I can tell there is no difference.



Mike I did notice the 2 Buck you list in your sig are both sons of Rolex. What made you breed with him and if one or both those Buck explode down the road and become a freak will you stop promoting them?

There has been a lot of text about what we as breeders need to do and how we present our industry. I don’t see we have done anything different that other emerging agricultural industry. I know for a fact that farm raised salmon are fed to promote orange flesh and farm raised baby coho salmon are rainbow trout that are fed a similar feed to promote orange flesh and that’s just the tip of the iceberg in the aquaculture industry. I have received a few emails that are from non-breeders that seem to be positive. I have attached them for your reading.

One thing we as a group need to address is this is a national publication that is only showing one view of the industry. The deer industry as a group needs to pressure Outdoor Life into publishing a positive article so the readers that saw the original article see the other side.



Email 1

You know never have thought about it in that light, but old man you have a point, i raise cattle, there only a little difference, but we are both farmers, but I dont know if anyone would pay to come out here and hunt one of my cows. they might, I will think about how it could work.



Email 2

I don\'t believe in hunting fenced in deer but have been told that it\'s not much different than hunting free roaming to a point...But what your talking about is just simply breeders across the country...I think it\'s a good thing that there are breeders across the country that particularly breed Deer...I know the population here in georgia awhile back went into a down hill slope so bad that the state brought deer into the state from other states,like Texas and Wisconson...If there\'s one good thing tha came out of it was the herd was able to rebound and grow to enormous heights...I guess it\'s all about being a conservationist first,and I\'m sure that the outdoor life article wasn\'t trying to throw a blackeye into the breeders point of view...Maybe it\'s just the writer that wrote the story,or possibly the folks that did the survey were from a liberal college and their trying to stir something up.



Email 3

Just my thoughts. The high fence farms are to me just that farms! It’s a business venture, the same as raising cattle, sheep, Llama’s or whatever. You have a product that is in some form of demand, and hope to make a profit. If you can make a living in the farming industry in these times, congratulations to you, no matter what your product is. Your right some will not agree with any kind “penned” hunting operation, or farming. My feelings you are doing a good thing, in times when productive land is in high demand you are providing a quality product. Good luck and I hope your business continues to grow, just as your deer are, into awesome trophy’s.

I was watching the sportsmans channel last week or so. It was the anniversary show for North American Whitetail magazine. Anyways, they were showcasing some of the greatest bucks that ever lived. The number 1 buck was the "Hole in the Horn Buck". Now he is about as big a freak that has ever come out of the wild. He has nothing typical on him. In my opinion Highroller is more typical than him. But still they have taken a complete non-typical and classified him as one of the greatest deer to ever live.

But, another magazine classifies the same type of deer as a FREAK!!



This goes back to my original comment about journalists. They don't write fact anymore, they write opinions. And the problem that we have as deerfarmers is that there is so much MIS-INFORMATION available to the public that the line between truth and lies is getting blurred.

If someone calls Ballistic a freak - that doesn't bother us one bit. He is one of a kind - just like the Hole in the Horn buck. The fact that no two whitetails are the same is what makes them special and unique. The fact that hunters like different styles of racks is what keeps us in business. We raise typicals and nontypicals and everything in between - because it isn't about what we like - it is about what the hunters like - and there is a hunter for every deer!

My question is, what is the difference between shooting a deer in a preserve or catching a bass in a stocked pond. As far as I can tell there is no difference.



Mike I did notice the 2 Buck you list in your sig are both sons of Rolex. What made you breed with him and if one or both those Buck explode down the road and become a freak will you stop promoting them?





I bought the doe bred from dustin miller and yes i sure would advertise him. Im not the one here to say whats right or wrong all i am saying is what i hear in public from people that know i raise deer.Most dont like deer behind fence at all but they all dont like the look of a deer after it looses what the whitetail deer should look like.



There are many deer farmers that will tell you to your face that this deer or that deer is to much and looks kinda crazy but you will never see them print their name to it.It does not matter what we do we will always be slammed for having deer and thats a fact we have to live with. I like the wide open big wide frame deer but thats just me.Everyone can breed to the look they like and its ok by me.Im not the deer police all i said about a deer that has largest in the world will have people coming at it from all sides good and bad.....Thats what outdoor life just did!!!!!

I like the big framed typicals with maybe a little junk. As for all the big freak bucks go they do just pop up sometimes and there is not as many of them that is what made them one of a kind.

When something is one of a kind it brings more money in and more attension this is why people breed for them.who cares what others think do what ever you like and continue to let people know this is a free country.

Offer any one of these guys a free hunt and see what they say. I can tell you, I have not found a person yet that has turned down the offer.

That is the only problem these guys have with high fence hunting that ***** about it all the time and down grade it is that it aint free. Tim is right



Joe Headley

www.AlabamasFinest.com

With the the caribou herds dieing out and most of canada canceling seasons, there are alot of hunters that are going to get more and more fed up with the "free hunts" the government offers. The governments of the world have never been the most effective at managing deer or other animals.



This is the time for high fence hunting to shine! Why do you think they are slamming it so hard? They are afraid it's going to catch on in a greater way.

Even antelope that bred like rabbits are dieing out all over the western states. They say barber worms and blame the sheep farmers, but it's really mismanagment and greed.

Tim, the meeting for PDFA. is OCT. 13th.@ 6o pm. I will have you on the agenda.