In breeding / Line breeding

I'm not wanting to stir up a can of worms here but what are your thoughts on breeding a buck back to his mother and sisters? Pros, cons,ethics, etc.

My thoughts have always been 50% so half brother to half sister is my limit when you cross 50% it's getting to tight IMO so let's say Doe A and Buck B share the same Father But different Mother's when bred it's almost like breeding with The same father again..... Not too tight but not real far either vise versa if you like the doe side and want to continue to promote the doe side half brother and sister of same mother is passing more of your super doe on to the fawns

John try anything at least once! There are books written on this. One of the most important things when working inside a line is physical selection. As your desired traits come forward so do the bad ones. Here is a quick example.


You have a brother and sister born a few years ago. You are watching them grow as fawns and there growth rate is excellent, you say the old famous deer farmers last words "I can't wait till next year!"


You see that the doe fawn gets bred and fawns, but has twins and raises them with no intervention from you. They appear to be robust fawns and she has handled the nursing fine. Meanwhile her brother is cranking out one of the best yearling sets of antlers you have ever seen. Do you breed them together?


Most would say no. Why not? Because they are womb mates! Who cares. In an extremely high percentage of the times you are dealing with two eggs to make twins anyway. They both carry the DNA from mom and dad but they are very different.


If their pedigree had a low percentage of calculated inbreeding I would breed them together in a heartbeat, however if they had an already high degree of calculated inbreeding I would not. I would breed the doe out one generation and try to fix any flaws you can see she has with a complimenting buck. Her daughter would get bred a minimum of at least two season back to the brother. Those offspring then tend to become predictable and winning results.


Back to the original pairing of the womb mates, in the scenario listed above I believe the most inherent thing gained from the breeding would be maturity. In most cases with animals performing at a high level that's dollars in your pocket. There are many lines that can sight specific examples of how to get this done! Good luck in your choice.

Thanks Ezra and Josh.  I appreciate your example.  Maybe we can discuss it more at the Fall Sale on Saturday.  On a lighter note, my wife said they wouldn't breed because "they know" they are related.  She truly has no idea how the male mind works.

See you Saturday John

Look at twins in general but in particular twin bucks... 9 times out of 10 they have a completely different look.  Then look at the next set of the same cross and usually they are yet again different too.  So I am ok with breeding pretty tight.  Who's to say which genes are going to be dominant without years of studying their offspring.  I believe you are more likely to get more health problems with over lapping genetics but that still is just a gamble you might not ever see any health problems.  Look at Blue 37... How much money has been made off her? She's very tightly breed and still kickin.  Personally I think it's just a matter of what is too tight for your own taste.  I've got one buck fawn that is tighter breed than I would have liked but AI didn't take and I'm happy to have him.  Knock on wood he's big and healthy.  He is Northern Yankee / Yellow 50. 


 


This is what his pedigree looks like if you back up to the Great Grand parents and just read down... it's a little tight but nothing but hammers in it lol.


Maxbo


Red 16


PJ


Red 16


 


Loner


Red 16


PJ


Red 16

I've never been into line breeding untill I started seeing how it can work well. I am putting an unleashed buck fawn in with all the unleashed doe fawns to see if any stick. But next year thats whos breeding them. Its kind of a no brainer on my farm, widest buck in the country top and bottom and very fast maturing inches in every spot on the offspring. Sell them bigger at an earlier age.

O it will probably stick and then you will have fawns in September like me this year!

Lol I know that feeling but I only will expose until the end of December. Then ill move the buck fawn in with the other buck fawns

I'm crossing a Banjo buck on a Banjo doe

. I will simply state like an old chicken farmer "Sometimes it takes a double shot to lock it in." I very much agree with Ryan's post below. I will edit this in because it might be helpful to someone. I believe that tine length will suffer if an outcross isn't done after the second generation of line breeding.

Its line breeding when it works, and inbreeding when it doesn't. I believe line breeding is good for a couple generations and then needs to be outcrossed, and bang you get results. Just my opinion, I tend to see a greater number of health issues (pneumonia and body deformities) from the tightly bred animals and specific lineages in general.

Thanks for everyone's responses so far. I'm going to try it because the original breeding was an outcross.

How about breeding a daughter back to her sire?


Would it be better to breed her to a yearling half brother( who you have no idea how he will be @2) or breed her back to the sire who you know produces?

tom'sdream973761410465707

How about breeding a daughter back to her sire?

Would it be better to breed her to a yearling half brother( who you have no idea how he will be @2) or breed her back to the sire who you know produces?


I am fairly new to deer breeding and still have a lot to learn but I have been breeding some of the greatest English pointers for awhile and when we found the right combination with in the lines that we had already established the half brother and half sister combinations always produced the best for me. But if you are looking to get rid of problem traits then a father daughter breeding would help produce what I call (idiots and Einsteins) you just have to cull the idiots and keep the best of them

Tom, that was my original question.  Not only a sister but also it's own mother.  Seems most say give it a try and see what happens if they are not already line bred.  Keep the good ones and cull  the rest.

While you are increasing the likelihood of heritability of a desired antler trait, you are also doubling any genetic weakness of disease. Build the doe and out cross her to the buck you desire because she probably will not age well.

Padencreek974011410480571

Tom, that was my original question.  Not only a sister but also it's own mother.  Seems most say give it a try and see what happens if they are not already line bred.  Keep the good ones and cull  the rest.

There is are two real good book written by bob whele called snakefoot making a champion it goes in pretty good detail about line breeding and inbreeding and how through a disciplined breeding program you can produce what you want. It is a good read and I think will help anyone out. It is primarily about dogs but Bob also was involved with breeding milking cows with superior milk production and chickens that consistently lay more eggs he also used his line breeding program in some great race horses.