Guess we are going to have to raise some pretty bucks to satifly the hunters. So far the uglier - the cheaper, and even the prettier bucks are off a bit. you can watch on www.liveauctions.tv
Joined Apr 2009
640 Posts | 0+
Mineral Point, MO
Don't most of the big breeders also have shooting ranches? Do they realize they're cutting they're own throats with these prices? A guy might as well buy a $100 to $500 dollar doe for breeding. I don't know about you guys but I'm not buying a high dollar doe or breeding with a high dollar sire if I can't recoup the cost if all I get is shooters out of it, which is most likely what you'll get. If the shooter market keeps going like this, no one will buy the high end stuff, and where does that leave them? Not to mention at those prices you can't even pay your feed bill, more a less vet, breeding, medication, and all the incidentals that go along with deer farming. If they drive all the small farmers out of business with these prices, who will be left to buy their high end stuff? I'm not raising deer so the Shooting Ranches can make money. I don't get it. The prices I saw were about half of what they were a couple years ago. Don't get me wrong, I know I'll never make a bunch of money doing this, but it has to be self sustaining. I love doing this but if it won't support itself I can't do it. I doubt the shooting ranches are dropping their prices by 50%. A 239" with a good frame for $6500?!?! OUCH!! That should have been AT LEAST $12,000+, because that deer will be shot for $15,000+. I sure hope this is an isolated thing or it turns around quick because a lot of deer farms will be out of business at those prices.
The breeder market is driven by the shooter market, or so I was told. Does this mean all the mid to high end stuff is going to be 50% of what it should be? I sure haven't seen that yet, it might be a LITTLE off, but no where near as bad as those shooter prices. The high end stuff is still as high or higher than last year, somethings got to give.
I know I'm probably setting myself up to get flamed, but someone has to say it.
The breeder market is driven by the shooter market, or so I was told. Does this mean all the mid to high end stuff is going to be 50% of what it should be? I sure haven't seen that yet, it might be a LITTLE off, but no where near as bad as those shooter prices. The high end stuff is still as high or higher than last year, somethings got to give.
I know I'm probably setting myself up to get flamed, but someone has to say it.
Its all about supply and demand. Several years ago the few people raising deer couldn't raise them fast enough. Now everybody and their brother got into it and the market is flooded.
Of course prices are going to go down. What do you think happens to corn prices when everybody over plants? I just heard guys here in Pa are letting 160"+ buck go for $1,000.
I'd eat em before I let em go that cheap!! Now the preserves will expect to pay these prices all the time!!
In all honesty, its not the preserves or the economies fault - its our own fault for over producing and selling cheap, IMHO....
Of course prices are going to go down. What do you think happens to corn prices when everybody over plants? I just heard guys here in Pa are letting 160"+ buck go for $1,000.
I'd eat em before I let em go that cheap!! Now the preserves will expect to pay these prices all the time!! In all honesty, its not the preserves or the economies fault - its our own fault for over producing and selling cheap, IMHO....
I'm not saying every preserve is going to do this, or that every big breeder has a preserve, but wow, I sure hope they all don't follow suit with these prices. Not good at all.
Once there was a young deer farmer who was out mowing pasture, and happened to be shredding a pen near the county road that bordered his farm. Off in the distance, he saw a truck heading his way with what appeared to be a very large trailer behind it, but he was unsure of what it was hauling. He turned off the tractor, and waited in curiosity.
As the truck approached, it came to a stop and the farmer saw that the trailer was full of assorted, used hammers. There were hammers of every size, shape, and color. The driver, an older gentleman, got out of his truck and asked the young farmer if he'd like to purchase a hammer. The price was $3 for any hammer he wished to buy, so he bought three hammers and paid the driver $9.
Several months went by and the pasture was needing to be mowed again, so the young farmer was there again, in the same pen, when the same truck and trailer full of hammers came driving by. The driver again stopped and asked the young farmer if he'd like to buy a hammer. The farmer thought for a minute..."these hammers are pretty cheap. Only $3 each?"
The driver explained that he had been buying these hammers for only $4 and found that he could easily sell them by the trailer-full for only $3 each. The farmer chuckled, spit, and looked the driver in the eye, and said, "old man, don't you know you're losing a dollar for each of those hammers you're selling?!"
Then the old man said, "Yep, sure do. But I used to be a deer farmer, and at least I'm making more now than I did back then!"
As the truck approached, it came to a stop and the farmer saw that the trailer was full of assorted, used hammers. There were hammers of every size, shape, and color. The driver, an older gentleman, got out of his truck and asked the young farmer if he'd like to purchase a hammer. The price was $3 for any hammer he wished to buy, so he bought three hammers and paid the driver $9.
Several months went by and the pasture was needing to be mowed again, so the young farmer was there again, in the same pen, when the same truck and trailer full of hammers came driving by. The driver again stopped and asked the young farmer if he'd like to buy a hammer. The farmer thought for a minute..."these hammers are pretty cheap. Only $3 each?"
The driver explained that he had been buying these hammers for only $4 and found that he could easily sell them by the trailer-full for only $3 each. The farmer chuckled, spit, and looked the driver in the eye, and said, "old man, don't you know you're losing a dollar for each of those hammers you're selling?!"
Then the old man said, "Yep, sure do. But I used to be a deer farmer, and at least I'm making more now than I did back then!"
Joined Apr 2009
660 Posts | 0+
Madill, Oklahoma
This sale today is throwing a shock wave across the industry as we speak. Anything getting bids is a "No Sale" and those that are selling are dirt cheap. Something is brewing, can you guess what it is??????
150"-160" shooters selling for $700-$1200
200+" bucks averaging $3500
150"-160" shooters selling for $700-$1200
200+" bucks averaging $3500
A friend of mine who was at the sale said there where only 2 guys that actually bid on shooters.Also said never heard 1 online bid. if there are no buyers there are no prices. Seems to be a trend for the past 3 years with the fall sales
Shannon
Shannon
Joined Apr 2009
1,130 Posts | 0+
Columbia, MO
I tried to bid last night.
I asked the nice lady running the online auction for:
1. Score
2. Location
3. Delivery price or availability with dates
4. Testing
5. And other information.
Most of the above was NOT provided. And the audio was so bad I couldn’t hear a thing (I’m losing my hearing anyway).
I don’t like these sales because:
1. Its in Northern Indiana. There may be a lot of bucks raised in that area, but it is the worst state for hunting preserves and right next to a state that doesn’t allow any deer in. Why have a sale as far away from where the end product will be as you can get?
2. I don’t get to see the deer in person. It’s hard to get any idea of the look of a buck by a picture. Good video or being there in person is the only way to go. And I travel enough! With today’s technology, there is really no excuse not to have video and information of the bucks on the internet. That way you can also tell the general health and quality of the animal.
3. I don’t like to put out money this time of year. As preserves, we have been starving for the last 6 months. No-one wants to pay even 25 or 50% of the purchase price 6 weeks before the first hunters. The bookings are just barely starting to pick up and deposits are way behind.
4. When you buy at auctions, you buy one here and one there and they are usually a NIGHT-MARE to try and pickup. Try getting 6 different sets of health papers for 6 different bucks from 6 different locations and coordinating all that. No THANKS!
5. I have been buying deer for over 15 years and have very poor luck when buying deer at these sales. When I do buy, I try to by several from the same person that I’ve done business with before. I'll pay more for that.
With all that said, I wont bid 50% of what I’ll give off the farm. As I’ve said before numerous times, relationships are the backbone of long term business. If you are getting into the deer industry concentrate on your relationships as much as you concentrate on you deer. You’ll be rewarded for it!
Prices will definitely be down this year. Preserves have had to lower their prices and we will all try to pass that on down. But we all have to make some money. I’d rather pay a little more to get better quality and be treated fairly. I can honestly say my suppliers are the best! They bend over backwards.
Supply and Demand have something to do with it. But its more than that. In the computer market if you sell computers for a period of time, a newer, faster model will come out. Does the price just go up? No the price of the faster, better computer is about the same as the old ones and the old ones are lowered in price. If you plan on raising 160 inch bucks for the next several years and making money, you are fooling yourself. They are being replaced with better deer and lots of them. Hunters should expect to hunt bigger, better deer for the same price. And we should provide that.
Although all this sounds somewhat dim, there is also a great opportunity for our industry. The lower buck prices mean lower hunting prices. And lower hunting prices mean more recruitment of hunters to preserves. I’ve always felt this industry could out compete the wild deer populations managed by the state run departments. Well guess what? Our animals are getting bigger and cheaper, while their bucks are getting fewer and of less quality. Deer farmers are the best animal and land managers on earth! And we are proving it. Our hunts are better and our herds our healthier than anything free-ranging!
So lets keep positive and write this trophy buck sale off as a poorly conceived idea. I know the good people were just trying to help out all the farmers raising deer. But you have to provide a service to the BUYERS. Its more than price!
I asked the nice lady running the online auction for:
1. Score
2. Location
3. Delivery price or availability with dates
4. Testing
5. And other information.
Most of the above was NOT provided. And the audio was so bad I couldn’t hear a thing (I’m losing my hearing anyway).
I don’t like these sales because:
1. Its in Northern Indiana. There may be a lot of bucks raised in that area, but it is the worst state for hunting preserves and right next to a state that doesn’t allow any deer in. Why have a sale as far away from where the end product will be as you can get?
2. I don’t get to see the deer in person. It’s hard to get any idea of the look of a buck by a picture. Good video or being there in person is the only way to go. And I travel enough! With today’s technology, there is really no excuse not to have video and information of the bucks on the internet. That way you can also tell the general health and quality of the animal.
3. I don’t like to put out money this time of year. As preserves, we have been starving for the last 6 months. No-one wants to pay even 25 or 50% of the purchase price 6 weeks before the first hunters. The bookings are just barely starting to pick up and deposits are way behind.
4. When you buy at auctions, you buy one here and one there and they are usually a NIGHT-MARE to try and pickup. Try getting 6 different sets of health papers for 6 different bucks from 6 different locations and coordinating all that. No THANKS!
5. I have been buying deer for over 15 years and have very poor luck when buying deer at these sales. When I do buy, I try to by several from the same person that I’ve done business with before. I'll pay more for that.
With all that said, I wont bid 50% of what I’ll give off the farm. As I’ve said before numerous times, relationships are the backbone of long term business. If you are getting into the deer industry concentrate on your relationships as much as you concentrate on you deer. You’ll be rewarded for it!
Prices will definitely be down this year. Preserves have had to lower their prices and we will all try to pass that on down. But we all have to make some money. I’d rather pay a little more to get better quality and be treated fairly. I can honestly say my suppliers are the best! They bend over backwards.
Supply and Demand have something to do with it. But its more than that. In the computer market if you sell computers for a period of time, a newer, faster model will come out. Does the price just go up? No the price of the faster, better computer is about the same as the old ones and the old ones are lowered in price. If you plan on raising 160 inch bucks for the next several years and making money, you are fooling yourself. They are being replaced with better deer and lots of them. Hunters should expect to hunt bigger, better deer for the same price. And we should provide that.
Although all this sounds somewhat dim, there is also a great opportunity for our industry. The lower buck prices mean lower hunting prices. And lower hunting prices mean more recruitment of hunters to preserves. I’ve always felt this industry could out compete the wild deer populations managed by the state run departments. Well guess what? Our animals are getting bigger and cheaper, while their bucks are getting fewer and of less quality. Deer farmers are the best animal and land managers on earth! And we are proving it. Our hunts are better and our herds our healthier than anything free-ranging!
So lets keep positive and write this trophy buck sale off as a poorly conceived idea. I know the good people were just trying to help out all the farmers raising deer. But you have to provide a service to the BUYERS. Its more than price!
Great post and insight on the shooting market today Sam. I would also like to thank you for being honest and straight forward with the farms you do business with in the area. We have had a few dishonest buyers already come thru that use bad information brought on by auctions and such as we are all seeing now. You do not use the information and use it against your buyers for that I would like to commend you. I have heard of buyers coming thru already offering about 50% of the normal buying price. With that said I do agree with the slow rise in deer hunters on the preserves now and in the future. What I fear most now is that the price of feed will continue to rise as the price of the deer falls. This could be bad for many. One thing I feel that the industry has done as a whole is allow the genetics to grow bigger and better deer at earlier ages. Years ago it was hard to grow 200 inch shooters consistently. With the genetics available today many can have their own breeders that can produce this kind of consistent stocker buck at 2 or 3. We can now grow 200 inch class bucks and not spend much more than what used to to produce much less of a stocker buck. I guess what I am saying is that if you slowly increase the genetics it should more that take up for the loss in selling price. Shoot, there are 300"+ inch genetics available for less than $500 now days. What would it have cost to use that years ago?? Sorry for the choppy rambling, it is just mt .02.
Joined May 2009
1,166 Posts | 0+
Tuscaloosa, Alabama
Another good point is why would you have a sale the same days as the TDA? The deer will not bring any money if the big farms are not there. I seen a doe fawn today bring 40,000.00 at tda and shadow semen bring 12,500. I heard that every big farm in north America is at the tda. I just think that is a mistake to hold this auction the same days as the tda. I know that the deer market is still very strong and maybe this confict in scheduling may be the reason that no lots brought any money. We all need those big farms there at the auctions to buy our lots. I wish the best for everyone. This is just my 2 cents
People who were saying that a 170" buck was only worth $1700 back in early April are now trying to excuse the mood of the industry and lead us to believe it will be a short-term problem because we're still "pre-season" to the hunters. I'm confused.
What you are saying is that I should be able to buy a 2010 F-250 with all the bells and whistles for the same price as a 1979 F-150 XLT Lariat sold for new?
Hey, I like that!!
How about calling Ford Motor Company for me and explaining this new business model to them? Let them know I am heading to the dealer for a new F-250, but I only want to pay the price that the "older" F-150 model sold for new....
Sorry Sam, just couldn't resist...
.
Hey, I like that!!
How about calling Ford Motor Company for me and explaining this new business model to them? Let them know I am heading to the dealer for a new F-250, but I only want to pay the price that the "older" F-150 model sold for new....
Sorry Sam, just couldn't resist...
.
Joined Apr 2009
1,130 Posts | 0+
Columbia, MO
Somtimes I wander why I'm one of the few preserve owners that ever posts!
Then sometimes I am reminded!
In addition to my other comments I can ad that I am looking forward to the opportunity to be "selective" in who I buy bucks from.
For the first time in a long time, there are plenty. It is no longer a matter of just the animal but the person/farm behind them!
Even though I still charge by the score, when buying, I no longer quote prices based on scores. Prices are now based on the deer, the seller, and the way he or she conducts thier business. I'll pay as much as I can to the people I trust. I've been in this business for a long time and plan on being in it for a lot longer. When I buy deer from someone and I'm treated right, I will return!
When bucks are in short supply, it is a sellers market and the seller can take advantage of the buyers. But when the bucks are plentiful, it is a buyers market and the buyers can take advantage of the sellers.
But in either case, if you take too much advantage of the situation, when the roles become reversed (and they will), you will find yourself on the short end of the stick.
As its been said on here before, I have a list..........Now I get to use it!
Then sometimes I am reminded!
In addition to my other comments I can ad that I am looking forward to the opportunity to be "selective" in who I buy bucks from.
For the first time in a long time, there are plenty. It is no longer a matter of just the animal but the person/farm behind them!
Even though I still charge by the score, when buying, I no longer quote prices based on scores. Prices are now based on the deer, the seller, and the way he or she conducts thier business. I'll pay as much as I can to the people I trust. I've been in this business for a long time and plan on being in it for a lot longer. When I buy deer from someone and I'm treated right, I will return!
When bucks are in short supply, it is a sellers market and the seller can take advantage of the buyers. But when the bucks are plentiful, it is a buyers market and the buyers can take advantage of the sellers.
But in either case, if you take too much advantage of the situation, when the roles become reversed (and they will), you will find yourself on the short end of the stick.
As its been said on here before, I have a list..........Now I get to use it!
My opinion is- If a small Deer Farmer wants to stay in business he needs to breed for the shooter market, you will always be able to sell those big wide frame 180's or even a 170's, 180's 8 point that is what most hunters want, those kinds of bucks are in much demand. Don't get me wrong I also like to see those Hugh non-typical but I bet it's harder to sell those big boys for the kind of money we want for them. My thinking is in the future the price for these big boys will come down because the breeder market can stand just so much. If I was to start a new deer farm my breeding would be from those big frame wide more typical look. Like Sam said once when one of those big wide frame boys walks out I want the hunter to say holy shi! Yes Yes Yes..........
I have read about the "list" that several farmers are talking about having. The problem is that the handful of new guys who are now ready to sell for the first time either are not on the list (much like a newly-married couple not having any credit instead of bad or good credit) or maybe on one list or another simply due to their views that were reflected right here on the deer forum. Simply put, the guy who has no relationship with the ranchers feels like he's on the B list when he didn't do anything wrong. Heck, I was on the C list last year.